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"This person doesn't even have limbs and they learned to swim. And you can't deal with your own stupid little problems?" Not exactly a confidence builder. It ju

"This person doesn't even have limbs and they learned to swim. And you can't deal with your own stupid little problems?" Not exactly a confidence builder. It just guilts you back into living.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
Some of us gain perspective from comparisons like that. We don't need guilt to motivate us. Its unfair to imagine folks only react to guilt but not to a real appreciation of their situation.
- orblivion 10y ago
  Well, I know what it's for, and I can appreciate that aspect. I just know it's been used on me and had that effect.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    Steinbeck (in Grapes of Wrath?) had a character recite the 5 levels of moral development. It went something like this: 1) I don't want to get in trouble 2) I want to please someone 3) I want to follow the rules 4) I want to help other people and the highest level, 5) I have a personal moral code, and I abide by it He explained these as levels we reach with age - entering school at age 5 or 6 we first hide from trouble. Then in first grade we want to please the nice teacher. Somewhere in middle school kids become rules-lawyers. Later in life they may learn to be philanthropic. People can be stuck at one of these early levels for life.
    - orblivion 10y ago
      I'm not sure how that applies, but it's interesting. Maybe I shouldn't say "guilt" as much as "shame".
    - arielweisberg 10y ago
      I think it's not just age, but the wealth and prosperity that can go along with it. It's easier to have a moral code and look down on those with less when your own needs and wants are secure.
      - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
        My old minister used to say "We can have all the morals we can afford"
    - ambicapter 10y ago
      Shit, I'm stuck at 3. This is bad.
      - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
        Not as bad as being stuck at #1, which can be rephrased as "don't get caught." Far too many adults are still there.
        EdHominem 10y ago
        #4 and #5 are back to #1 - Doing what you feel is best while not being caught for doing it, just with a broader sense of "best".
    - nostrademons 10y ago
      Interestingly, this mirrors Kohlberg's stages of moral development, though Kohlberg was a child when Grapes of Wrath came out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_o... The one missing stage is #2, self-interest, which in this framing would be "I want to please myself."
jessaustin 10y ago
This person doesn't even have limbs and they learned to swim. Let's call this person "Bob". It's my impression that since torsos are buoyant it would be basically impossible for Bob to sink. So now Bob just needs to wriggle in such a fashion as to move in some direction and occasionally get his head above water to take a breath. Of the many challenges that a limbless person faces, swimming would have to be among the easiest. Certainly easier than e.g. donning a swimsuit.

"This person doesn't even have limbs and they learned to swim. And you can't deal with your own stupid little problems?" Not exactly a confidence builder. It just guilts you back into living.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago

Some of us gain perspective from comparisons like that. We don't need guilt to motivate us. Its unfair to imagine folks only react to guilt but not to a real appreciation of their situation.

orblivion 10y ago
Well, I know what it's for, and I can appreciate that aspect. I just know it's been used on me and had that effect.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  Steinbeck (in Grapes of Wrath?) had a character recite the 5 levels of moral development. It went something like this: 1) I don't want to get in trouble 2) I want to please someone 3) I want to follow the rules 4) I want to help other people and the highest level, 5) I have a personal moral code, and I abide by it He explained these as levels we reach with age - entering school at age 5 or 6 we first hide from trouble. Then in first grade we want to please the nice teacher. Somewhere in middle school kids become rules-lawyers. Later in life they may learn to be philanthropic. People can be stuck at one of these early levels for life.
  - orblivion 10y ago
    I'm not sure how that applies, but it's interesting. Maybe I shouldn't say "guilt" as much as "shame".
  - arielweisberg 10y ago
    I think it's not just age, but the wealth and prosperity that can go along with it. It's easier to have a moral code and look down on those with less when your own needs and wants are secure.
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
      My old minister used to say "We can have all the morals we can afford"
  - ambicapter 10y ago
    Shit, I'm stuck at 3. This is bad.
    - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
      Not as bad as being stuck at #1, which can be rephrased as "don't get caught." Far too many adults are still there.
      - EdHominem 10y ago
        #4 and #5 are back to #1 - Doing what you feel is best while not being caught for doing it, just with a broader sense of "best".
  - nostrademons 10y ago
    Interestingly, this mirrors Kohlberg's stages of moral development, though Kohlberg was a child when Grapes of Wrath came out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_o... The one missing stage is #2, self-interest, which in this framing would be "I want to please myself."

jessaustin 10y ago

This person doesn't even have limbs and they learned to swim. Let's call this person "Bob". It's my impression that since torsos are buoyant it would be basically impossible for Bob to sink. So now Bob just needs to wriggle in such a fashion as to move in some direction and occasionally get his head above water to take a breath. Of the many challenges that a limbless person faces, swimming would have to be among the easiest. Certainly easier than e.g. donning a swimsuit.