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> Based on this thread, I'd say the problem is a lot of people haven't given them the time. > If you select your hardware, they work pretty flawlessly. Maybe t

by merijnv 10y ago

> Based on this thread, I'd say the problem is a lot of people haven't given them the time. > If you select your hardware, they work pretty flawlessly. Maybe the fact that I have to give them time is one of the major problems? You know how much time I invested in getting my Windows and OSX desktops to work flawlessly? Zero.

aaron-lebo 10y ago
We're literally talking about a 15 minute setup on a variety of nixes on a wide-range of hardware. Intel chipsets and their graphics drivers have excellent support out of the box. That goes for everything from refurbished Thinkpads to Chromebooks to used Macbook Pros to new desktops.
pbhjpbhj 10y ago
Are you comparing like with like, your Windows & OSX desktops were preinstalled presumably, same price brackets too?
belorn 10y ago
I do a windows reinstallation about once every second year, and I routinely get problems. Network drivers are almost always missing. Looking at the device manager, about 5-10 different devices fails to auto-install, all part of the motherboards. The default graphic drivers tend to "start", but is limited in refresh rate and resolution, and moving around windows shows a noticeable stutter until I install some official drivers from the graphic card manufacturer. Sound normally works without issues. On linux, the problems are almost the reverse. I have yet to have network problems on a fresh debian installation. Graphic is a all-or-nothing deal, which means either x-server starts up normally or it refuses to start completely. Sound is normally a pain, but looks to have better default behavior in the last 3 years or so.
- Decade 10y ago
  > I do a windows reinstallation about once every second year, and I routinely get problems. Network drivers are almost always missing. Looking at the device manager, about 5-10 different devices fails to auto-install, all part of the motherboards. What are you reinstalling, Windows XP every time? Newer versions of Windows are getting better at finding and installing sane drivers for the hardware. It’s still not perfect, Windows Update doesn’t have all the latest drivers and OEMs ruin everything especially on laptops, but these days I install the latest Windows and everything usually just works.
  - belorn 10y ago
    Windows 7, desktop machine, and windows update don't really work without a functioning network connection. But if you don't believe me, and choose to believe those reporting issues with Linux, just do a google search on windows install and network issues. There is plenty of people reporting the same issue. to cite windows own support page: "If Windows can’t find a new driver for your network adapter, visit the PC manufacturer’s website and download the latest network adapter driver from there. If your PC can't connect to the Internet, you'll need to download a driver on a different PC and save it to a USB flash drive so you can install the driver on your PC"
    - Sanddancer 10y ago
      At this point, Windows 7 is 7 years old. Do an apples to apples comparison here, and try getting your same hardware working on a copy of Ubuntu 9.04 or RHEL 5.3. How hard is it?
      - belorn 10y ago
        Why should I only look at the exact date which windows 7 was released, rather than the date when a major release of debian got out, say 2011 with Debian 6.0? No network issue, occasional problems with x-server, problems with sound (as said above). Network works out of the box. On windows, issue with network, issue with graphics (until driver was installed), no problem with sound. A few months ago I bought a gaming laptop on release date. Guess what, network worked without issue. X-server did not start until proprietary drivers were installed. Sound worked. Windows release schedule do not match Debian's release schedule. Each year after a release, the default drivers will get worse, but the general experience can still be obtained by people who experience the install process. The experience I have endured with windows is issue with new motherboards and especially network drivers (and built-in raid cards for the installer... good grief, that was a wasted afternoon trying to get the installer to accept the raid drivers). Second to that, the fall back graphic drivers look crappy and is bad in every way except that its slightly better than a basic command prompt.
throw2016 10y ago
I have been using Linux for a long time and while all the underlying criticisms of X and the desktop environments are valid I have to concede things have come a long way. I think a modern Ubuntu 16.04 Unity desktop for instance is actually a bit of a revelation for long time Linux users because it just works out of the box. I didn't have to install a single package or fiddle with anything for a change. It's fast, smooth, robust and works exceedingly well out of the box and wait for this it's even a delight to use. It's another thing I am a long time Gnome user and won't even have tried Unity because of the now I think inexplicable bad press Unity has got but it's been quite a revelation. I urge those who have not tried it yet due to bad press to give it a shot and prepare to be suprised. I compare it to my Windows machines and OSX laptops and do not feel a particular difference apart from preferences and of course once you get into specific use cases like adobe apps or gaming there is still ground to cover. But for a general productivity desktop with full acceleration I think it's there in many ways. If you need a rich ecosystem of dev tools it goes to the top. There is of course always scope for improvement architecturally and other things and I think that is happening with mir, wayland and Vulcan.
xorcist 10y ago
If that's your anecdote, here's mine: _Every_ time I install Windows I need some third party driver just to make graphics and networking go. Then I need third party software just to get a development environment or a decent shell. Upgrading these are hit and miss, and it's more common than not that third party drivers do not support newer versions of the operating system. Linux, meanwhile, integrates all of these components. As long as you stay away from non-supported third party drivers it just works, and upgrades are painless. (Until some desktop developers change the GUI again, but that's another story.)

by merijnv 10y ago

aaron-lebo 10y ago

We're literally talking about a 15 minute setup on a variety of nixes on a wide-range of hardware. Intel chipsets and their graphics drivers have excellent support out of the box. That goes for everything from refurbished Thinkpads to Chromebooks to used Macbook Pros to new desktops.

pbhjpbhj 10y ago

Are you comparing like with like, your Windows & OSX desktops were preinstalled presumably, same price brackets too?

belorn 10y ago

I do a windows reinstallation about once every second year, and I routinely get problems. Network drivers are almost always missing. Looking at the device manager, about 5-10 different devices fails to auto-install, all part of the motherboards. The default graphic drivers tend to "start", but is limited in refresh rate and resolution, and moving around windows shows a noticeable stutter until I install some official drivers from the graphic card manufacturer. Sound normally works without issues. On linux, the problems are almost the reverse. I have yet to have network problems on a fresh debian installation. Graphic is a all-or-nothing deal, which means either x-server starts up normally or it refuses to start completely. Sound is normally a pain, but looks to have better default behavior in the last 3 years or so.

Decade 10y ago
> I do a windows reinstallation about once every second year, and I routinely get problems. Network drivers are almost always missing. Looking at the device manager, about 5-10 different devices fails to auto-install, all part of the motherboards. What are you reinstalling, Windows XP every time? Newer versions of Windows are getting better at finding and installing sane drivers for the hardware. It’s still not perfect, Windows Update doesn’t have all the latest drivers and OEMs ruin everything especially on laptops, but these days I install the latest Windows and everything usually just works.
- belorn 10y ago
  Windows 7, desktop machine, and windows update don't really work without a functioning network connection. But if you don't believe me, and choose to believe those reporting issues with Linux, just do a google search on windows install and network issues. There is plenty of people reporting the same issue. to cite windows own support page: "If Windows can’t find a new driver for your network adapter, visit the PC manufacturer’s website and download the latest network adapter driver from there. If your PC can't connect to the Internet, you'll need to download a driver on a different PC and save it to a USB flash drive so you can install the driver on your PC"
  - Sanddancer 10y ago
    At this point, Windows 7 is 7 years old. Do an apples to apples comparison here, and try getting your same hardware working on a copy of Ubuntu 9.04 or RHEL 5.3. How hard is it?
    - belorn 10y ago
      Why should I only look at the exact date which windows 7 was released, rather than the date when a major release of debian got out, say 2011 with Debian 6.0? No network issue, occasional problems with x-server, problems with sound (as said above). Network works out of the box. On windows, issue with network, issue with graphics (until driver was installed), no problem with sound. A few months ago I bought a gaming laptop on release date. Guess what, network worked without issue. X-server did not start until proprietary drivers were installed. Sound worked. Windows release schedule do not match Debian's release schedule. Each year after a release, the default drivers will get worse, but the general experience can still be obtained by people who experience the install process. The experience I have endured with windows is issue with new motherboards and especially network drivers (and built-in raid cards for the installer... good grief, that was a wasted afternoon trying to get the installer to accept the raid drivers). Second to that, the fall back graphic drivers look crappy and is bad in every way except that its slightly better than a basic command prompt.

throw2016 10y ago

I have been using Linux for a long time and while all the underlying criticisms of X and the desktop environments are valid I have to concede things have come a long way. I think a modern Ubuntu 16.04 Unity desktop for instance is actually a bit of a revelation for long time Linux users because it just works out of the box. I didn't have to install a single package or fiddle with anything for a change. It's fast, smooth, robust and works exceedingly well out of the box and wait for this it's even a delight to use. It's another thing I am a long time Gnome user and won't even have tried Unity because of the now I think inexplicable bad press Unity has got but it's been quite a revelation. I urge those who have not tried it yet due to bad press to give it a shot and prepare to be suprised. I compare it to my Windows machines and OSX laptops and do not feel a particular difference apart from preferences and of course once you get into specific use cases like adobe apps or gaming there is still ground to cover. But for a general productivity desktop with full acceleration I think it's there in many ways. If you need a rich ecosystem of dev tools it goes to the top. There is of course always scope for improvement architecturally and other things and I think that is happening with mir, wayland and Vulcan.

xorcist 10y ago

If that's your anecdote, here's mine: _Every_ time I install Windows I need some third party driver just to make graphics and networking go. Then I need third party software just to get a development environment or a decent shell. Upgrading these are hit and miss, and it's more common than not that third party drivers do not support newer versions of the operating system. Linux, meanwhile, integrates all of these components. As long as you stay away from non-supported third party drivers it just works, and upgrades are painless. (Until some desktop developers change the GUI again, but that's another story.)