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I used to work on the radar systems in these vehicles. It's a problem that the feature is called "autopilot," yes, but the larger issue is that the car does not

I used to work on the radar systems in these vehicles. It's a problem that the feature is called "autopilot," yes, but the larger issue is that the car does not enforce what the company often says in press releases, which is that you need to remain alert and with your hands on the wheel. There have been similar systems in other vehicles for years - I'm most familiar with those in Mercedes vehicles that are not as advanced but perform similar actions. Those systems will automatically turn off after just a few seconds of removing your hands from the wheel. That is what the Tesla should do. The autopilot feature is a toy; it's not to be used in place of a human driver, nor would a human driver be able to step in quickly and take over for the system were it to suddenly fail had the person not been paying attention. It should not be possible to watch a Youtube video of someone driving completely hands free for minutes at a time. Yes, Tesla should not call it "autopilot," but if you want to really prevent people from using the system in a way in which it's not intended, you need to enforce it in hardware.

te 10y ago
Is Tesla's autopilot using radar? How is radar fooled by a white truck against a bright background? I was surprised by this point of failure, which suggests to me that they aren't even using radar.
- agildehaus 10y ago
  https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/748625979271045121 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/748625979271045121
  - protomyth 10y ago
    Maybe I'm a little clueless on how radar works, but how would something that is lower than a car's height be mistaken for something as distant as a overhead sign?
    - agildehaus 10y ago
      I would assume the forward radar isn't capable of seeing anything past a foot or two off the ground. I suppose I don't really know, but that was Elon's answer to "why didn't the radar see it?"
      - protomyth 10y ago
        tweet: "Radar tunes out what looks like an overhead road sign to avoid false braking events" That's what puzzles me. I don't get how overhead road signs can be a problem, and it couldn't detect something at car height. Its just really odd.
- joshdickson 10y ago
  As of July 2016, the autonomous driving system in the Model S (& X, presumably) is not using radar, only cameras. The vehicles do have radar which is used for other things (various crash avoidance programs), but not this, and these things presumably did not fire correctly. I do not know if Tesla's software update capabilities would allow it to push a future autonomous driving update in the future that could interface with the radar sensors; I'd assume so. When I was working on these things the software build that went to the factory was what was on the car for 15 years, obviously this way is superior. As a side note, radar in cars and semi trucks are a difficult match. The height of tractor trailer trucks makes it difficult to figure out if they are actually obstacles or if you're really seeing a bridge or something. Normally there's enough hanging down in back that it's not an issue, but in this case the truck was perpendicular to the car. It would not surprise me if the radar went right underneath the truck and either didn't see it, or saw it but thought it was something like a bridge that the car could go under. These are difficult and complex systems to engineer.
  - ccozan 10y ago
    :o) Tesla is not using radars?! I am driving an '14 Audi A6 and I can tell you, the radars + software on it are the most advanced I ever saw. They even catch a small cat when was trying to cross the street. The car actioned a emergency break before I even realized. The only time when this wasn't working, was during a snow blizzard, when the radar sensors got iced and they couldn't see anything. Otherwise, they are pretty wide range, at least 100m. It also keeps the car in between the lanes - this is done with a camera, but if you take your hands of the wheel, you get a max of about 30 seconds of free driving to maybe open a bottle of water, before it get's really loud.
    - joshdickson 10y ago
      > :o) Tesla is not using radars?! I am driving an '14 Audi A6 and I can tell you, the radars + software on it are the most advanced I ever saw. TIL everyone on Hacker News drives a much nicer car than I do. The crash avoidance measures run in tandem with the autonomous driving features, but the system (which is mainly licensed technology from Mobileye) just doesn't get any depth intelligence from it. Presumably if autonomous driving pointed you into a brick wall, the radar stuff would still trigger the AEB features (autonomous braking).
- skykooler 10y ago
  It uses radar, but combines that with the cameras to discard "obstacles" that the cameras tell it to, like road signs (big flat surfaces are very reflective to radar). The cameras did not see the truck and so told the radars to ignore it.
vvanders 10y ago
The system does ping and then yell at you if you don't have your hand on the wheel. There's no way to prevent someone from keeping a hand on the wheel and watching a movie while driving. It's really tragic what happened but as a driver you should be aware of what's happening. I've put ~15k miles of Autopilot on our Tesla and while it helps with the mental fatigue I was still watching the road 100% of the time exactly for reasons like this. Also I think the killer app for Autopilot is rush hour traffic. Things happen much slower and this is where I found the larger percentage of mental fatigue happens.
- tptacek 10y ago
  What I've heard is that it pings and complains, but not at such a frequency that drivers are compelled to keep their hands on the wheel.
  - jamesjyu 10y ago
    There are two situations where it pings: 1) After a set amount of time (around 5 minutes or so). This is to ensure you are awake. 2) If it hits a turn or situation where it is less confident. 3) Major escalation in situations where a crash may be imminent (this ping is much louder and urgent). Agree that on straightaways, the pings are pretty infrequent.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      You can use Autopilot for five minutes without your hands on the wheel, and it won't even beep at you?
      - ctdonath 10y ago
        The "killer app" everyone is expecting is: get in, tap destination, and peruse media for the duration. That will require a stage of using Autopilot for five minutes without your hands on the wheel, and it won't even beep at you.
cynix 10y ago
> It's a problem that the feature is called "autopilot,"… Why is that a problem? An autopilot system is designed to assist, not replace, human operators. And that's exactly what Tesla's Autopilot does. > … but the larger issue is that the car does not enforce what the company often says in press releases, which is that you need to remain alert and with your hands on the wheel. Cars without Autopilot (i.e. every car ever manufactured in the past 100 years) also do not enforce that the driver must hold the steering wheel. I don't see anyone complaining about that. It's the driver's responsibility to place their hands on the wheel.
- studentrob 10y ago
  >> It's a problem that the feature is called "autopilot,"… > Why is that a problem? The US is not in the business of allowing companies to sell products that pose a safety hazard to users or people around them. Tesla's version of autopilot is a new feature that government agencies take pretty seriously. NTSB is now investigating the Florida crash. There are several Youtube videos of people abusing the tech. Other drivers do not want those people driving around them. To get people to use the system safely, the government can (a) ask police to check that people are paying attention while driving, or (b) require stricter hardware controls such as hands must be on the wheel. (a) is impractical > Cars without Autopilot (i.e. every car ever manufactured in the past 100 years) also do not enforce that the driver must hold the steering wheel. I don't see anyone complaining about that. Other car systems are irrelevant. This is new tech that had to be approved for use in the US. It was approved last October.
- cwillu 10y ago
  Most cars manufactured in the last hundred years has a tendency to, you know, _crash within seconds_ when the driver lets go of the steering wheel. In practice, this tends to train users to keep a hand on the wheel.
- darpa_escapee 10y ago
  > It's the driver's responsibility to place their hands on the wheel I'd argue it's the manufacturer's responsibility that they ensure a driver using their "autopilot" feature keeps their hands on the wheel and maintains attention so I am not hit by one of their broken vehicles. Other cars that do automated driving tasks alert drivers loudly when they take their hands off the wheel, there is no reason that shouldn't be standard. Pushing the responsibility on to consumers when it's a solved problem in the industry is negligent and irresponsible on the manufacturer's part.

te 10y ago

Is Tesla's autopilot using radar? How is radar fooled by a white truck against a bright background? I was surprised by this point of failure, which suggests to me that they aren't even using radar.

agildehaus 10y ago
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/748625979271045121 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/748625979271045121
- protomyth 10y ago
  Maybe I'm a little clueless on how radar works, but how would something that is lower than a car's height be mistaken for something as distant as a overhead sign?
  - agildehaus 10y ago
    I would assume the forward radar isn't capable of seeing anything past a foot or two off the ground. I suppose I don't really know, but that was Elon's answer to "why didn't the radar see it?"
    - protomyth 10y ago
      tweet: "Radar tunes out what looks like an overhead road sign to avoid false braking events" That's what puzzles me. I don't get how overhead road signs can be a problem, and it couldn't detect something at car height. Its just really odd.
joshdickson 10y ago
As of July 2016, the autonomous driving system in the Model S (& X, presumably) is not using radar, only cameras. The vehicles do have radar which is used for other things (various crash avoidance programs), but not this, and these things presumably did not fire correctly. I do not know if Tesla's software update capabilities would allow it to push a future autonomous driving update in the future that could interface with the radar sensors; I'd assume so. When I was working on these things the software build that went to the factory was what was on the car for 15 years, obviously this way is superior. As a side note, radar in cars and semi trucks are a difficult match. The height of tractor trailer trucks makes it difficult to figure out if they are actually obstacles or if you're really seeing a bridge or something. Normally there's enough hanging down in back that it's not an issue, but in this case the truck was perpendicular to the car. It would not surprise me if the radar went right underneath the truck and either didn't see it, or saw it but thought it was something like a bridge that the car could go under. These are difficult and complex systems to engineer.
- ccozan 10y ago
  :o) Tesla is not using radars?! I am driving an '14 Audi A6 and I can tell you, the radars + software on it are the most advanced I ever saw. They even catch a small cat when was trying to cross the street. The car actioned a emergency break before I even realized. The only time when this wasn't working, was during a snow blizzard, when the radar sensors got iced and they couldn't see anything. Otherwise, they are pretty wide range, at least 100m. It also keeps the car in between the lanes - this is done with a camera, but if you take your hands of the wheel, you get a max of about 30 seconds of free driving to maybe open a bottle of water, before it get's really loud.
  - joshdickson 10y ago
    > :o) Tesla is not using radars?! I am driving an '14 Audi A6 and I can tell you, the radars + software on it are the most advanced I ever saw. TIL everyone on Hacker News drives a much nicer car than I do. The crash avoidance measures run in tandem with the autonomous driving features, but the system (which is mainly licensed technology from Mobileye) just doesn't get any depth intelligence from it. Presumably if autonomous driving pointed you into a brick wall, the radar stuff would still trigger the AEB features (autonomous braking).
skykooler 10y ago
It uses radar, but combines that with the cameras to discard "obstacles" that the cameras tell it to, like road signs (big flat surfaces are very reflective to radar). The cameras did not see the truck and so told the radars to ignore it.

vvanders 10y ago

The system does ping and then yell at you if you don't have your hand on the wheel. There's no way to prevent someone from keeping a hand on the wheel and watching a movie while driving. It's really tragic what happened but as a driver you should be aware of what's happening. I've put ~15k miles of Autopilot on our Tesla and while it helps with the mental fatigue I was still watching the road 100% of the time exactly for reasons like this. Also I think the killer app for Autopilot is rush hour traffic. Things happen much slower and this is where I found the larger percentage of mental fatigue happens.

tptacek 10y ago
What I've heard is that it pings and complains, but not at such a frequency that drivers are compelled to keep their hands on the wheel.
- jamesjyu 10y ago
  There are two situations where it pings: 1) After a set amount of time (around 5 minutes or so). This is to ensure you are awake. 2) If it hits a turn or situation where it is less confident. 3) Major escalation in situations where a crash may be imminent (this ping is much louder and urgent). Agree that on straightaways, the pings are pretty infrequent.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    You can use Autopilot for five minutes without your hands on the wheel, and it won't even beep at you?
    - ctdonath 10y ago
      The "killer app" everyone is expecting is: get in, tap destination, and peruse media for the duration. That will require a stage of using Autopilot for five minutes without your hands on the wheel, and it won't even beep at you.

cynix 10y ago

> It's a problem that the feature is called "autopilot,"… Why is that a problem? An autopilot system is designed to assist, not replace, human operators. And that's exactly what Tesla's Autopilot does. > … but the larger issue is that the car does not enforce what the company often says in press releases, which is that you need to remain alert and with your hands on the wheel. Cars without Autopilot (i.e. every car ever manufactured in the past 100 years) also do not enforce that the driver must hold the steering wheel. I don't see anyone complaining about that. It's the driver's responsibility to place their hands on the wheel.

studentrob 10y ago
>> It's a problem that the feature is called "autopilot,"… > Why is that a problem? The US is not in the business of allowing companies to sell products that pose a safety hazard to users or people around them. Tesla's version of autopilot is a new feature that government agencies take pretty seriously. NTSB is now investigating the Florida crash. There are several Youtube videos of people abusing the tech. Other drivers do not want those people driving around them. To get people to use the system safely, the government can (a) ask police to check that people are paying attention while driving, or (b) require stricter hardware controls such as hands must be on the wheel. (a) is impractical > Cars without Autopilot (i.e. every car ever manufactured in the past 100 years) also do not enforce that the driver must hold the steering wheel. I don't see anyone complaining about that. Other car systems are irrelevant. This is new tech that had to be approved for use in the US. It was approved last October.
cwillu 10y ago
Most cars manufactured in the last hundred years has a tendency to, you know, _crash within seconds_ when the driver lets go of the steering wheel. In practice, this tends to train users to keep a hand on the wheel.
darpa_escapee 10y ago
> It's the driver's responsibility to place their hands on the wheel I'd argue it's the manufacturer's responsibility that they ensure a driver using their "autopilot" feature keeps their hands on the wheel and maintains attention so I am not hit by one of their broken vehicles. Other cars that do automated driving tasks alert drivers loudly when they take their hands off the wheel, there is no reason that shouldn't be standard. Pushing the responsibility on to consumers when it's a solved problem in the industry is negligent and irresponsible on the manufacturer's part.