9 ms·

I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semit

by Zafira 10y ago

I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. So often it feels like proponents of questionable Israeli policies seem to use the Holocaust, Israel's fight for survival through the endless wars from its creation through the 1970s to justify an aggressive and hostile stance. Why is this?

golergka 10y ago
> I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. Because this criticism is too often intertwined with attacks not on israeli policies, but on Israel's right to exist. And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic. > So often it feels like proponents of questionable Israeli policies seem to use the Holocaust, Israel's fight for survival through the endless wars from its creation through the 1970s to justify an aggressive and hostile stance. Because fight for survival and hostile stance are directly related. Ask yourself: is average citizen of a country neighboring yours sees you as an enemy? Have he or his parents gone to war against you? Will he help you if you get attacked? Or may he'll be glad to see you die? Being peaceful and trusting is a privilege that Israel can't afford.
- tanderson92 10y ago
  > > I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. > Because this criticism is too often intertwined with attacks not on israeli policies, but on Israel's right to exist. And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic. Can you explain this to me please? My roommate (who happened to be Jewish) and I in college always used to talk about this and generally disagreed with the common view. He never struck me as anti-Semitic. It isn't necessarily a matter of "deserving" a nation state, but of displacing native peoples from their homeland to do so. If it was barren desert I'm not sure it would be such an issue.
  - golergka 10y ago
    > Can you explain this to me please? In theory, criticizing a country and country's right to exist are different things. In practice, usually people who are most vocal critics of Israel don't think it should exist in the first place. > displacing native peoples from their homeland to do so Which is an ugly half-truth. To put things in this way would require either ignorance of the region's history or some ugly dose of bias.
    - tanderson92 10y ago
      > In theory, criticizing a country and country's right to exist are different things. > In practice, usually people who are most vocal critics of Israel don't think it should exist in the first place. You actually did not address how being against Israel's right to exist is equivalent to anti-Semitism, which was the intent of my question. > Which is an ugly half-truth. To put things in this way would require either ignorance of the region's history or some ugly dose of bias. Or simply disagreement. 'Bias' implies that your perspective is not itself similarly influenced by bias.
      - golergka 10y ago
        > You actually did not address how being against Israel's right to exist is equivalent to anti-Semitism, which was the intent of my question. I must've misunderstood it then. Well, isn't it obvious? If you don't deny other ethnicities their nationhood and state, but somehow think that jews don't deserve the same treatment, how can it be not anti-semitic?
        tanderson92 10y ago
        And again, if nobody lived in Palestine (the geographical region) then you would have a point that there is an equivalence. Otherwise, you need to argue that there is a higher moral value to giving the horribly oppressed Jewish people a state than the immorality of taking away the land of indigenous peoples. But that is a matter of judgement (esp. given anti-Semitism in the UK/US, esp. the UK, at the time leading to us not accepting them all as political refugees), not bigotry. https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007094 https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007094 https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jun/08/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jun/08/immigration.immig...
- e12e 10y ago
  > And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic. But in the US and Canada, as far as I know, native Americans/first nation are welcome to be first party citizens, no longer forced to live on reservations? Not without an ugly history of oppression; but the "nation state" is mostly a fascist fiction anyway. Few native people of the artic claim that they deserve to build a "nation state" - at the same time they organise for other rights, and today work quite well with the various states that govern the area. The most sane parallell to the state of Israel is probably South-africa: it has shown that it is possible to move from an apartheid state to a more modern state that acknowledge all resident cultures. But as with South Africa, as long as the international community largely supports oppression, a peaceful coexistence is likely to remain out of reach. But hopefully popular opinion will turn in Israel before the genocide is complete; I've already heard former a Israeli helicopter pilot mentioned how he became a conscientious objector after fly-overs of the Gaza strip brought home the similarities to stories he'd been told about the Warsaw getthoes. As for your examples; most of those are true for Europe (not being seen as an enemy, perhaps, but the war part). And would also apply to South Africa. And yet peace could be an option.
  - brashrat 10y ago
    but... but... Arabs living in Israel are first class citizens, they are not forced to live on reservations, and they participate in elections and are elected to the Knesset, Israel's parliament. The occupied West Bank is land that was formerly claimed by--no, not by "Palestine", that wasn't actually a thing--the State of Jordan which also included the territory of Israel in its claimed territory; the state of Jordan gave up its claim to the West Bank when the people living there (according to them, "Jordanians", but people you know as Palestinians) were politically destabilizing to the government of Jordan. To stave off the political threat (look up Black September), the state of Jordan gave up its claim to the West Bank (and to Israel). Israel only occupied the West Bank when Palestinian lawlessness and terrorist antipathy toward Israel resulted in numerous bloody attacks on the civilian population of Israel. Israel has a much better case for occupation/pacification than Russia does of its occupation and annexation of Ukraine. I (a non Jew) do believe that anti-Semitism is the root cause of so much more anger directed at Israel than is directed at (say) Russia. Think of other disputed territories around the globe. Only in the case of Israel is there so much bitterness by outsiders toward one side, the less violent side, the side that is actually a civilized democracy and obeys rule of law. And now that I mention it, do you even know what Morocco has been doing for many years in Western Sahara? Look it up, look up Polisario... it's an ethnic conflict. People will read about that and tut-tut and say, wow, that's terrible what the Moroccans have been doing, but quickly return to condemning Israel. And they look at the Hutus and Tutsis and say "well, there is blame to go around on both sides", and now we turn our attention to the tiny state of Israel, largely surrounded by barbarous dictatorships who don't even treat their own citizens well, and low and behold, it's those terrible awful Israelis who are to blame, much moreso than the Russians or Moroccans. Somehow it doesn't seem like there is plenty of blame to go around in this case, eh? I believe that there are two reasons for bitterness toward Israel. 1) anti Arab racism motivates the belief that "we can't expect Palestinians to behave any better" (hey, maybe we can't, but if you don't want me to accuse you of anti-Semitism, come out and say it) 2) anti Jewish racism motivates the belief that "still, that doesn't justify the way those people are reacting", even though we see plenty of other "peoples" around the world defending themselves. What are the Israelis defending themselves against? Click around wikipedia for awhile and look at the sheer number of Palestinian attacks directed at Israel month in and month out every year for the past 35 years. Would you put up with that directed at you and yours?
YZF 10y ago
Israel is a Jewish state. Some feel that it is held up to unreasonably high standards vs. the rest of the world. Would you call the US aggressive and hostile? Would you call Russia aggressive and hostile? How about China? UK? France? South Korea? North Korea? Iran? Iraq? Lebanon? Turkey? (The list could go on and on)... Are these countries in the same situation you describe, i.e. fighting for their survival? What exactly is the criteria to be considered aggressive and hostile? What would be a reasonable response to various security threats and hostile actions of others? If you apply that criteria fairly - that's fine. If you single out Israel, and filter the events to suit some agenda, maybe not so fine.
- dmoy 10y ago
  In order: yes, yes, not externally, not anymore, not anymore, no, not really but they'd like you to think so, no, not anymore, lol what no, not anymore (but damn fess up about the Armenian genocide already).
  - brashrat 10y ago
    | not any more but damn fess up about the Armenian genocide already I read PP as talking about the Turks present day treatment of the Kurds, not their previously reprehensible treatment of the Armenians. Are you excusing the way Kurds are treated by Turkey? (and Iraq and Iran and Syria)
brashrat 10y ago
| I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks... Why is this? Let's say extremes from both sides of any issue in general tend to over-exaggerate... You seriously think that the worst part is unfair propaganda by Zionists that exists to such an extent that it overwhelms any countervailing anti-Semitic reworking of anti-Semitism into slanting of news against Israel? Given the huge size of Arab and Moslem populations around the world compared to Jewish populations, the survey results that show their complete acceptance of anti-Semitism, and given the long long and recent history of anti-Semitism all across Europe... given that, to what do you attribute this "worst part"? Are you alleging that the Jews control the media? Also, while we are on the subject, what races are "some of you best friends"? I'm not attempting to attack you personally or accuse you, just trying to shake your intellectual lapels a bit to reconsider your stance, for what I've noticed is that your question comes up in every single discussion of this issue, to the extent that it sounds like a mantra to me. Propaganda itself. Peace.

by Zafira 10y ago

golergka 10y ago

> I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. Because this criticism is too often intertwined with attacks not on israeli policies, but on Israel's right to exist. And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic. > So often it feels like proponents of questionable Israeli policies seem to use the Holocaust, Israel's fight for survival through the endless wars from its creation through the 1970s to justify an aggressive and hostile stance. Because fight for survival and hostile stance are directly related. Ask yourself: is average citizen of a country neighboring yours sees you as an enemy? Have he or his parents gone to war against you? Will he help you if you get attacked? Or may he'll be glad to see you die? Being peaceful and trusting is a privilege that Israel can't afford.

tanderson92 10y ago
> > I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. > Because this criticism is too often intertwined with attacks not on israeli policies, but on Israel's right to exist. And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic. Can you explain this to me please? My roommate (who happened to be Jewish) and I in college always used to talk about this and generally disagreed with the common view. He never struck me as anti-Semitic. It isn't necessarily a matter of "deserving" a nation state, but of displacing native peoples from their homeland to do so. If it was barren desert I'm not sure it would be such an issue.
- golergka 10y ago
  > Can you explain this to me please? In theory, criticizing a country and country's right to exist are different things. In practice, usually people who are most vocal critics of Israel don't think it should exist in the first place. > displacing native peoples from their homeland to do so Which is an ugly half-truth. To put things in this way would require either ignorance of the region's history or some ugly dose of bias.
  - tanderson92 10y ago
    > In theory, criticizing a country and country's right to exist are different things. > In practice, usually people who are most vocal critics of Israel don't think it should exist in the first place. You actually did not address how being against Israel's right to exist is equivalent to anti-Semitism, which was the intent of my question. > Which is an ugly half-truth. To put things in this way would require either ignorance of the region's history or some ugly dose of bias. Or simply disagreement. 'Bias' implies that your perspective is not itself similarly influenced by bias.
    - golergka 10y ago
      > You actually did not address how being against Israel's right to exist is equivalent to anti-Semitism, which was the intent of my question. I must've misunderstood it then. Well, isn't it obvious? If you don't deny other ethnicities their nationhood and state, but somehow think that jews don't deserve the same treatment, how can it be not anti-semitic?
      - tanderson92 10y ago
        And again, if nobody lived in Palestine (the geographical region) then you would have a point that there is an equivalence. Otherwise, you need to argue that there is a higher moral value to giving the horribly oppressed Jewish people a state than the immorality of taking away the land of indigenous peoples. But that is a matter of judgement (esp. given anti-Semitism in the UK/US, esp. the UK, at the time leading to us not accepting them all as political refugees), not bigotry. https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007094 https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007094 https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jun/08/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jun/08/immigration.immig...
e12e 10y ago
> And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic. But in the US and Canada, as far as I know, native Americans/first nation are welcome to be first party citizens, no longer forced to live on reservations? Not without an ugly history of oppression; but the "nation state" is mostly a fascist fiction anyway. Few native people of the artic claim that they deserve to build a "nation state" - at the same time they organise for other rights, and today work quite well with the various states that govern the area. The most sane parallell to the state of Israel is probably South-africa: it has shown that it is possible to move from an apartheid state to a more modern state that acknowledge all resident cultures. But as with South Africa, as long as the international community largely supports oppression, a peaceful coexistence is likely to remain out of reach. But hopefully popular opinion will turn in Israel before the genocide is complete; I've already heard former a Israeli helicopter pilot mentioned how he became a conscientious objector after fly-overs of the Gaza strip brought home the similarities to stories he'd been told about the Warsaw getthoes. As for your examples; most of those are true for Europe (not being seen as an enemy, perhaps, but the war part). And would also apply to South Africa. And yet peace could be an option.
- brashrat 10y ago
  but... but... Arabs living in Israel are first class citizens, they are not forced to live on reservations, and they participate in elections and are elected to the Knesset, Israel's parliament. The occupied West Bank is land that was formerly claimed by--no, not by "Palestine", that wasn't actually a thing--the State of Jordan which also included the territory of Israel in its claimed territory; the state of Jordan gave up its claim to the West Bank when the people living there (according to them, "Jordanians", but people you know as Palestinians) were politically destabilizing to the government of Jordan. To stave off the political threat (look up Black September), the state of Jordan gave up its claim to the West Bank (and to Israel). Israel only occupied the West Bank when Palestinian lawlessness and terrorist antipathy toward Israel resulted in numerous bloody attacks on the civilian population of Israel. Israel has a much better case for occupation/pacification than Russia does of its occupation and annexation of Ukraine. I (a non Jew) do believe that anti-Semitism is the root cause of so much more anger directed at Israel than is directed at (say) Russia. Think of other disputed territories around the globe. Only in the case of Israel is there so much bitterness by outsiders toward one side, the less violent side, the side that is actually a civilized democracy and obeys rule of law. And now that I mention it, do you even know what Morocco has been doing for many years in Western Sahara? Look it up, look up Polisario... it's an ethnic conflict. People will read about that and tut-tut and say, wow, that's terrible what the Moroccans have been doing, but quickly return to condemning Israel. And they look at the Hutus and Tutsis and say "well, there is blame to go around on both sides", and now we turn our attention to the tiny state of Israel, largely surrounded by barbarous dictatorships who don't even treat their own citizens well, and low and behold, it's those terrible awful Israelis who are to blame, much moreso than the Russians or Moroccans. Somehow it doesn't seem like there is plenty of blame to go around in this case, eh? I believe that there are two reasons for bitterness toward Israel. 1) anti Arab racism motivates the belief that "we can't expect Palestinians to behave any better" (hey, maybe we can't, but if you don't want me to accuse you of anti-Semitism, come out and say it) 2) anti Jewish racism motivates the belief that "still, that doesn't justify the way those people are reacting", even though we see plenty of other "peoples" around the world defending themselves. What are the Israelis defending themselves against? Click around wikipedia for awhile and look at the sheer number of Palestinian attacks directed at Israel month in and month out every year for the past 35 years. Would you put up with that directed at you and yours?

YZF 10y ago

Israel is a Jewish state. Some feel that it is held up to unreasonably high standards vs. the rest of the world. Would you call the US aggressive and hostile? Would you call Russia aggressive and hostile? How about China? UK? France? South Korea? North Korea? Iran? Iraq? Lebanon? Turkey? (The list could go on and on)... Are these countries in the same situation you describe, i.e. fighting for their survival? What exactly is the criteria to be considered aggressive and hostile? What would be a reasonable response to various security threats and hostile actions of others? If you apply that criteria fairly - that's fine. If you single out Israel, and filter the events to suit some agenda, maybe not so fine.

dmoy 10y ago
In order: yes, yes, not externally, not anymore, not anymore, no, not really but they'd like you to think so, no, not anymore, lol what no, not anymore (but damn fess up about the Armenian genocide already).
- brashrat 10y ago
  | not any more but damn fess up about the Armenian genocide already I read PP as talking about the Turks present day treatment of the Kurds, not their previously reprehensible treatment of the Armenians. Are you excusing the way Kurds are treated by Turkey? (and Iraq and Iran and Syria)

brashrat 10y ago

| I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks... Why is this? Let's say extremes from both sides of any issue in general tend to over-exaggerate... You seriously think that the worst part is unfair propaganda by Zionists that exists to such an extent that it overwhelms any countervailing anti-Semitic reworking of anti-Semitism into slanting of news against Israel? Given the huge size of Arab and Moslem populations around the world compared to Jewish populations, the survey results that show their complete acceptance of anti-Semitism, and given the long long and recent history of anti-Semitism all across Europe... given that, to what do you attribute this "worst part"? Are you alleging that the Jews control the media? Also, while we are on the subject, what races are "some of you best friends"? I'm not attempting to attack you personally or accuse you, just trying to shake your intellectual lapels a bit to reconsider your stance, for what I've noticed is that your question comes up in every single discussion of this issue, to the extent that it sounds like a mantra to me. Propaganda itself. Peace.