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Without disrespecting his memory, we should not forget that Wiesel lent serious support to the occupation and, what is effectively, the ethnic cleansing of East

by nanna 10y ago

Without disrespecting his memory, we should not forget that Wiesel lent serious support to the occupation and, what is effectively, the ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem. Haaretz touches on this: "In April 2010, he took out advertisements in four major newspapers, criticizing the Obama administration for pressuring the Netanyahu government to halt construction in Jewish neighborhoods located across the Green Line in East Jerusalem." For me, as an Israeli Jew, I find him too compromised by nationalism to bother with. I'd much rather read Primo Levi or Paul Celan. More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elie_Wiesel#Opinions_about_Jerusalem_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elie_Wiesel#Opinions_about_Jer...

bobdo 10y ago
If Israel is ethnically cleansing Jerusalem they are doing a pretty poor job considering that the Muslim population has gone from 54,963 in 1967 to 281,000 in 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusalem#After_Jerusalem_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusal...
- Cyph0n 10y ago
  Oh, so ethnic cleansing, genocide, widespread discrimination, and expulsion must involve the population going down! See http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext-printerfriendly.htm http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext-printer...
golergka 10y ago
Wow. Building homes is one hell of an ethnic cleansing operation.
- labster 10y ago
  You laugh, but the Bay Area is like one level of NIMBYism away from Palestine.
- Cyph0n 10y ago
  Building homes on illegal lands, forced expulsion and demolition of Palestinian homes, carpet bombing of a prison city, discrimination against Palestinian Arabs at all levels of society - I think that's quite close to the definition of state-sponsored terrorism, and in some cases, genocide.
  - relics443 10y ago
    Forced expulsion? Like when Israel forcibly expelled its own citizens from Gaza to make room for Palestinian terrorists to move in, where they mount lethal attacks against Israel? Demolition of Palestinian homes? In response to Palestinians murdering Israeli citizens; men, women, and children? Carpet bombing? Like the targeted missile strikes in Gaza? Where they warn the targets before-hand, only to see those targets force civilians into the strike zone hoping for mass casualties? Prison city? The one that had a flourishing tourism industry until Israel abandoned it and Hamas took over? The one that they supply water, electricity, and construction supplies to even though they are not paid for? Discrimination against Palestinian Arabs? Like when they go out of their way to supply them with jobs? Like how there are Palestinian Arab Members of Knesset? Like how they are full citizens of the State? Your bias is showing.
  - golergka 10y ago
    Well, these things are not what was mentioned in the comment above, and for the most part, they aren't true either.
- DanBC 10y ago
  I believe the UN special rapporteur: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-palestinian-israel-un-idUKBREA2K1JM20140321 http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-palestinian-israel-un-idUKB...
Aelinsaar 10y ago
You know, if Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse someone, they wouldn't still be around. Do you not understand how bombs and fire work? You may not like what their restraint looks like, you may argue for much more, but the level of hyperbole you're engaging in is pointless.
- littletimmy 10y ago
  Would it sound more reasonable if we say "Ethnically cleanse at the rate that the international community allows"?
  - themartorana 10y ago
    No.
  - Aelinsaar 10y ago
    It would still be a pretty grotesque insult to victims of actual ethnic cleansing.
Zafira 10y ago
I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. So often it feels like proponents of questionable Israeli policies seem to use the Holocaust, Israel's fight for survival through the endless wars from its creation through the 1970s to justify an aggressive and hostile stance. Why is this?
- golergka 10y ago
  > I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. Because this criticism is too often intertwined with attacks not on israeli policies, but on Israel's right to exist. And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic. > So often it feels like proponents of questionable Israeli policies seem to use the Holocaust, Israel's fight for survival through the endless wars from its creation through the 1970s to justify an aggressive and hostile stance. Because fight for survival and hostile stance are directly related. Ask yourself: is average citizen of a country neighboring yours sees you as an enemy? Have he or his parents gone to war against you? Will he help you if you get attacked? Or may he'll be glad to see you die? Being peaceful and trusting is a privilege that Israel can't afford.
  - tanderson92 10y ago
    > > I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. > Because this criticism is too often intertwined with attacks not on israeli policies, but on Israel's right to exist. And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic. Can you explain this to me please? My roommate (who happened to be Jewish) and I in college always used to talk about this and generally disagreed with the common view. He never struck me as anti-Semitic. It isn't necessarily a matter of "deserving" a nation state, but of displacing native peoples from their homeland to do so. If it was barren desert I'm not sure it would be such an issue.
vonnik 10y ago
Primo Levi and Paul Celan are both excellent, excellent writers. Any one who wants to learn about the Holocaust should read Levi's "If This Is a Man" and "The Truce". And Paul Celan's poem "Todesfuge" is one of the most moving writings from a survivor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todesfuge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todesfuge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_This_Is_a_Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_This_Is_a_Man I don't know anything better. They will change your life.

by nanna 10y ago

bobdo 10y ago

If Israel is ethnically cleansing Jerusalem they are doing a pretty poor job considering that the Muslim population has gone from 54,963 in 1967 to 281,000 in 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusalem#After_Jerusalem_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusal...

Cyph0n 10y ago
Oh, so ethnic cleansing, genocide, widespread discrimination, and expulsion must involve the population going down! See http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext-printerfriendly.htm http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext-printer...

golergka 10y ago

Wow. Building homes is one hell of an ethnic cleansing operation.

labster 10y ago
You laugh, but the Bay Area is like one level of NIMBYism away from Palestine.
Cyph0n 10y ago
Building homes on illegal lands, forced expulsion and demolition of Palestinian homes, carpet bombing of a prison city, discrimination against Palestinian Arabs at all levels of society - I think that's quite close to the definition of state-sponsored terrorism, and in some cases, genocide.
- relics443 10y ago
  Forced expulsion? Like when Israel forcibly expelled its own citizens from Gaza to make room for Palestinian terrorists to move in, where they mount lethal attacks against Israel? Demolition of Palestinian homes? In response to Palestinians murdering Israeli citizens; men, women, and children? Carpet bombing? Like the targeted missile strikes in Gaza? Where they warn the targets before-hand, only to see those targets force civilians into the strike zone hoping for mass casualties? Prison city? The one that had a flourishing tourism industry until Israel abandoned it and Hamas took over? The one that they supply water, electricity, and construction supplies to even though they are not paid for? Discrimination against Palestinian Arabs? Like when they go out of their way to supply them with jobs? Like how there are Palestinian Arab Members of Knesset? Like how they are full citizens of the State? Your bias is showing.
- golergka 10y ago
  Well, these things are not what was mentioned in the comment above, and for the most part, they aren't true either.
DanBC 10y ago
I believe the UN special rapporteur: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-palestinian-israel-un-idUKBREA2K1JM20140321 http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-palestinian-israel-un-idUKB...

Aelinsaar 10y ago

You know, if Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse someone, they wouldn't still be around. Do you not understand how bombs and fire work? You may not like what their restraint looks like, you may argue for much more, but the level of hyperbole you're engaging in is pointless.

littletimmy 10y ago
Would it sound more reasonable if we say "Ethnically cleanse at the rate that the international community allows"?
- themartorana 10y ago
  No.
- Aelinsaar 10y ago
  It would still be a pretty grotesque insult to victims of actual ethnic cleansing.

Zafira 10y ago

I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. So often it feels like proponents of questionable Israeli policies seem to use the Holocaust, Israel's fight for survival through the endless wars from its creation through the 1970s to justify an aggressive and hostile stance. Why is this?

golergka 10y ago
> I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. Because this criticism is too often intertwined with attacks not on israeli policies, but on Israel's right to exist. And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic. > So often it feels like proponents of questionable Israeli policies seem to use the Holocaust, Israel's fight for survival through the endless wars from its creation through the 1970s to justify an aggressive and hostile stance. Because fight for survival and hostile stance are directly related. Ask yourself: is average citizen of a country neighboring yours sees you as an enemy? Have he or his parents gone to war against you? Will he help you if you get attacked? Or may he'll be glad to see you die? Being peaceful and trusting is a privilege that Israel can't afford.
- tanderson92 10y ago
  > > I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. > Because this criticism is too often intertwined with attacks not on israeli policies, but on Israel's right to exist. And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic. Can you explain this to me please? My roommate (who happened to be Jewish) and I in college always used to talk about this and generally disagreed with the common view. He never struck me as anti-Semitic. It isn't necessarily a matter of "deserving" a nation state, but of displacing native peoples from their homeland to do so. If it was barren desert I'm not sure it would be such an issue.

vonnik 10y ago

Primo Levi and Paul Celan are both excellent, excellent writers. Any one who wants to learn about the Holocaust should read Levi's "If This Is a Man" and "The Truce". And Paul Celan's poem "Todesfuge" is one of the most moving writings from a survivor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todesfuge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todesfuge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_This_Is_a_Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_This_Is_a_Man I don't know anything better. They will change your life.