4 ms·

I can imagine that we do not just perceive someone's gender by the sound of their voice, but the way in which they present their opinions and what they say in g

I can imagine that we do not just perceive someone's gender by the sound of their voice, but the way in which they present their opinions and what they say in general. So lets assume we have a biased recruiter who secretly, perhaps unknowingly, prefers to hire men. The recruiter subconsciously hears a women (man with modulated voice) say things in a way that men would, he might actually prefer this candidate over a 'real' woman. Another candidate, who sounds like a man, but is a woman then says things that the recruiter's subconscious picks up as female might then not be considered at all. So what does this say? Nothing much I think.

bdg 10y ago
That's a lot of mental gymnastics piled onto guesses to post-hoc justify an opinion.
rebeccaskinner 10y ago
I think that's a lot of it; There are definitely masculine and feminine communication styles, and I think that like a lot of other things, feminine communication styles are devalued. The people doing it in most cases probably aren't aware of it, but I'm sure it does happen. It seems like even just this factor alone could be enough to account for the other discrepancies- a man speaking with with a female-modulated voice may fair better than men in general because, they benefit from having a masculine (e.g. "good") communication style while also benefiting from any factors that may work in favor of women during an interview. On the other hand, women whose voices are modulated to sound like mens may have it a lot worse, since they would be affected by both the fact that their communication style would be worse, but also the fact that people tend to have strong negative reactions toward men who are seen to be in any way feminine.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  We may want to consider context when sorting "good" and "bad" communication styles. What is the job being interviewed for? What is the work environment like for that job? How will a different communication style help or hinder someone in that work environment?
- cm3 10y ago
  What are examples of how a female expresses a thought vs a male? Genuinely curious, as this is the first time I heard about it.
  - rebeccaskinner 10y ago
    Formally there has been some study that you could look through [1] and there are some simple examples that you can play around with [2], but personally a lot of it just feels anecdotal. There are certainly some general societal and socialization factors in play (women have to carefully balance just the right level of assertiveness or else be perceived as either incompetent or a bitch- in some environments there's no middle ground at all). As a women who's been in software development for a decade I can definitely tell when I code switch between talking to technical people and not, but from a first person perspective it's probably too hard to separate out meaningful and widely applicable things from my own quirks and personal experiences. [1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=text+analysis+gender&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjvmIPmq9LNAhVh7oMKHVipA_QQgQMIHDAA https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=text+analysis+gender&hl... [2] https://www.uclassify.com/browse/uclassify/genderanalyzer_v5 https://www.uclassify.com/browse/uclassify/genderanalyzer_v5 [2] http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php
- adrianratnapala 10y ago
  The thing is that communication style is not a mere decoration: it's an important skill for an engineer. And that's bad news for women if they really do speak less confidently than men. I want a colleague who is confident in his or her own ideas and able to pipe up and explain them to others. I think it is also easier to be clear if you are first confindent. Admitedly, some acquaintances (all of them men), take it to the opposite extreme; they try to drown out everyone else, in a contest of nerd-machismo. But in new hires -- of either sex, timidity is the more likely vice.
  - zepto 10y ago
    Why do you assume tre difference has anything to do with 'timidity'?
    - adrianratnapala 10y ago
      The original story talks about women being more easily discouraged than men -- this is in line with other new stories I have seen in the same genre. If all that is true, then one might suspect that men talk more confidently while women talk more diffidently. In my book both confidence and diffidence are virtues. But taken to extremes, they become the vices of machismo and timidity. And in my experience, new hires of both sexes are dangerously close to the timid end of the spectrum.
xexers 10y ago
Exactly. If you've ever masked a friends voice as the opposite gender, it doesn't really matter. You can tell by their speaking style that they are your friend.
frozenport 10y ago
If women think differently then men ( by saying other things), are we justified in preferring one group over the other?
- robotresearcher 10y ago
  There are plausible data showing benefits from diversity. It looks like a mixture should be preferred.
torrent-of-ions 10y ago
How about the interviewers prefer the qualities often exhibited by men regardless of gender?

bdg 10y ago

That's a lot of mental gymnastics piled onto guesses to post-hoc justify an opinion.

rebeccaskinner 10y ago

I think that's a lot of it; There are definitely masculine and feminine communication styles, and I think that like a lot of other things, feminine communication styles are devalued. The people doing it in most cases probably aren't aware of it, but I'm sure it does happen. It seems like even just this factor alone could be enough to account for the other discrepancies- a man speaking with with a female-modulated voice may fair better than men in general because, they benefit from having a masculine (e.g. "good") communication style while also benefiting from any factors that may work in favor of women during an interview. On the other hand, women whose voices are modulated to sound like mens may have it a lot worse, since they would be affected by both the fact that their communication style would be worse, but also the fact that people tend to have strong negative reactions toward men who are seen to be in any way feminine.

digi_owl 10y ago
We may want to consider context when sorting "good" and "bad" communication styles. What is the job being interviewed for? What is the work environment like for that job? How will a different communication style help or hinder someone in that work environment?
cm3 10y ago
What are examples of how a female expresses a thought vs a male? Genuinely curious, as this is the first time I heard about it.
- rebeccaskinner 10y ago
  Formally there has been some study that you could look through [1] and there are some simple examples that you can play around with [2], but personally a lot of it just feels anecdotal. There are certainly some general societal and socialization factors in play (women have to carefully balance just the right level of assertiveness or else be perceived as either incompetent or a bitch- in some environments there's no middle ground at all). As a women who's been in software development for a decade I can definitely tell when I code switch between talking to technical people and not, but from a first person perspective it's probably too hard to separate out meaningful and widely applicable things from my own quirks and personal experiences. [1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=text+analysis+gender&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjvmIPmq9LNAhVh7oMKHVipA_QQgQMIHDAA https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=text+analysis+gender&hl... [2] https://www.uclassify.com/browse/uclassify/genderanalyzer_v5 https://www.uclassify.com/browse/uclassify/genderanalyzer_v5 [2] http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php
adrianratnapala 10y ago
The thing is that communication style is not a mere decoration: it's an important skill for an engineer. And that's bad news for women if they really do speak less confidently than men. I want a colleague who is confident in his or her own ideas and able to pipe up and explain them to others. I think it is also easier to be clear if you are first confindent. Admitedly, some acquaintances (all of them men), take it to the opposite extreme; they try to drown out everyone else, in a contest of nerd-machismo. But in new hires -- of either sex, timidity is the more likely vice.
- zepto 10y ago
  Why do you assume tre difference has anything to do with 'timidity'?
  - adrianratnapala 10y ago
    The original story talks about women being more easily discouraged than men -- this is in line with other new stories I have seen in the same genre. If all that is true, then one might suspect that men talk more confidently while women talk more diffidently. In my book both confidence and diffidence are virtues. But taken to extremes, they become the vices of machismo and timidity. And in my experience, new hires of both sexes are dangerously close to the timid end of the spectrum.

xexers 10y ago

Exactly. If you've ever masked a friends voice as the opposite gender, it doesn't really matter. You can tell by their speaking style that they are your friend.

frozenport 10y ago

If women think differently then men ( by saying other things), are we justified in preferring one group over the other?

robotresearcher 10y ago
There are plausible data showing benefits from diversity. It looks like a mixture should be preferred.

torrent-of-ions 10y ago

How about the interviewers prefer the qualities often exhibited by men regardless of gender?