11 ms·
A Tragic Loss
- kozak 10y agoNot clear why did the car continue to travel after the impact. Didn't the systems detect the negative acceleration from the collision?
- tempestn 10y agoIt wouldn't necessarily be cause to disengage the autopilot. Plenty of things could cause negative acceleration besides a collision. A hill, a patch of mud, etc. And presumably they didn't anticipate this kind of situation, so didn't include moderate slowing due to collision as a code path.
- kozak 10y agoThe car should still have started emergency braking at some close distance before the obstacle (when the radar data got very clear about that not being an overhead sign). Braking in case of an inevitable crash is useful to reduce severity of the crash. And it's a bad idea to release brakes after the crash either. So it still seems like wrong behavior to me.
- tempestn 10y agoWell of course it's wrong behaviour! But in the article itself it says the car never braked, as it did not see the trailer. Presumably it did detect some deceleration and compensated for it. I'm just saying that apparently it wasn't programmed to interpret sudden deceleration absent any other indicators as a possible collision. I agree that perhaps it should be.
- creshal 10y agoYou can't stop momentum like that on a dime.
- r721 10y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12011419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12011419
- farhanhubble 10y ago"Neither Autopilot nor the driver noticed the white side of the tractor trailer against a brightly lit sky, so the brake was not applied". Did the model not have a forward looking RADAR?
- manmal 10y agoNo, as far as I can read, Teslas don't have LIDARs yet (but they are reported to have them, soon: http://electrek.co/2016/03/18/tesla-model-s-test-vehicle-autopilot-lidar/ http://electrek.co/2016/03/18/tesla-model-s-test-vehicle-aut...).
- jrv 10y agoThere is a radar, but it turns off in that situation, as Elon explained in a tweet: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/748625979271045121 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/748625979271045121
- wibr 10y agoIt doesn't turn off, it just ignores things that are probably something else.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- KaiserPro 10y agoThe main problem with all of this, is that its not a true autopilot. In fact its the worst kind of autopilot. one that bails out at the last minute leaving you fuck all time to take action. telsa's autopilot is level 3, which means freeway driving only: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_car#Classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_car#Classification The thing I fear now is the toxic mix of fanboyism and excessive PR management reminiscent of the worst excesses of Detroit. The only way safety is improved is when hubris and bluster is put to one side.
- martin_bech 10y agoThe thing I fear now, is fearmongering by people who dont drive Teslas, havent spent time with Autosteer/autopilot and ignore that this was a freak accident, that probably would have killed the driver regardless of using autopilot. This is the future of roadsafety.
- tmikaeld 10y agoThat's exactly what i fear as well, that innovation will halt and reverse because of fear of using new technology. Even if it's statistically safer than the alternative.
- rimantas 10y agoMistaking truck for a road sign is not a future I want.
- Swizec 10y agoOr MAYBE it's time to install safety skirts on trucks just like they do in Europe? There's no reason why an entire sedan should fit under the trailer of a truck. This is what a truck designed for safety looks like: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Artic.lorry.arp.750pix.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Artic.lo... Notice how no part of it is higher off the ground than a foot or so. Way too low for a car to fit under. This is what truck in the US looks like: http://www.center-linecurtains.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/HomePageTruckN.png http://www.center-linecurtains.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/0... Notice how you could hide a sports car underneath.
- jakozaur 10y agoAlso: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12014143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12014143
- tpatke 10y agoNot good enough. I think Tesla have a lot to answer for here. They are pushing the limits of a technology which Google has said, "needs to be 100% autonomous". No steering wheel. Tesla knows this, but branded their car as 'auto-pilot' anyway. When it became clear from early youtube videos that people were not using the technology 'correctly' Tesla did nothing more than issuing a statement. They should be considering a recall. It is not good enough that Tesla PR is 'sad' that someone died. What are they doing about it?
- Jaruzel 10y agoThey don't even have to do a recall; All Teslas can be updated (or in this case, downgraded) over the air. All they need to do is either learn from this and fix the 'white vehicle against a white sky' problem, or remove the 'auto-pilot' feature completely, until they actually develop proper auto-pilot. Paraphrasing from JFK: We choose to make auto-driving cars, not because it is easy, but because it is hard. There will be casulties along the way. Deaths are not a reason to stifle development. If we'd done that, we'd never have spaceflight or Vaccines (or Nuclear Weapons for that matter...) .
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- Aoyagi 10y ago>When it became clear from early youtube videos that people were not using the technology 'correctly' Tesla did nothing more than issuing a statement. Is personal responsibility something that's completely taboo nowadays?
- gargravarr 10y agoTesla actually use the correct term for it, the fundamental problem is a mass misunderstanding of what aircraft autopilot does. Autopilot in an airliner is capable of flying the plane on a set course in ideal conditions. This means good weather, no other air traffic in the vicinity and full feedback from its various sensors. As soon as the plane enters a scenario outside of which it's designed to operate, control is reverted to the human pilots. That's exactly how Tesla's system is designed. So long as the computers can account for the current scenario, the car drives itself, but it explicitly falls back on the human (who, like a pilot, must be ready to take command at any time). A trucker pulling out on a driver and blind-siding them falls outside the definition of 'ideal condition' in my book. I live in Europe where underrun guards are mandatory on all trailers. Sounds like one wasn't fitted here. That's likely more to blame for the fatality than Tesla's software or a distracted driver - let's face it, anyone could suffer a lapse in concentration at a critical moment on the road.
- efaref 10y agoIt sounds like the trailer didn't have underrun guards, which I think are mandatory in Europe, but presumably not in the US. http://www.transportsfriend.org/road/guards.html http://www.transportsfriend.org/road/guards.html I expect those would have helped in this situation, as the car would have impacted the guards (and thus it would be a normal collision), rather than having its top sliced off.
- Rafert 10y agoThe description of the accident surprised me as well, but your comment makes sense. Vehicles getting under trailers is something I've only seen in (US) movies.
- madaxe_again 10y agoCorrect. The EU requires underrun guards on all vehicles except tipper trucks, which cause a disproportionate number of fatalities still. There was an attempt to introduce legislation in the US in the 90's, I believe, but it was killed.
- PinguTS 10y agoThere is also an exemption for historic trucks as well as for trucks, which are mainly used in terrain. That applies to all the Expedition trucks, which are used by world travelers.
- kozak 10y agoWhat's interesting, I didn't know what exactly a tipper truck is, and I did a Google image search for that query. All of the trucks shown to me had highly visible underrun guards on their sides.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- tombrossman 10y agoUnderrun guards are a good idea but not yet practical for trailers in the US. The reason is that loading dock approaches have far too much variance in ground height, and the empty space under the trailer is essential to have. If guards were in place, they would come into regular contact with the ground and either damage the trailer or the truck would be 'high centered' and stuck, resting on the guards. I suppose the guards could be made to fold up out of the way but this would add weight and complexity, and probably affect strength. Trucking companies in the US do things like use 'super single' tires that are extra wide to span the width of dual tires. This saves the weight of two unneeded sidewalls and save a few pounds weight. Because truck design is so influenced by large fleet purchases, even very tiny changes to weight are avoided. Lighter > safer.
- hellofunk 10y ago> It is important to note > It is important to emphasize I am getting so disappointed by how widespread this wasteful use of the English language has become. The phrase is just filler and means nothing, yet it is used everywhere, nearly every HN thread has someone who uses it. If you need to note something, then note it. By putting it into words, you have said "this is important enough to actually say it." Further saying that it is important is a crutch. This is probably why copy editors get so frustrated when technical people write things, because the idiom is particularly pervasive in the tech blogosphere. We all need to do a service to the value of our words and see [0 ... 3] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:It_should_be_noted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:It_should_be_noted [1] http://womeninwetlands.blogspot.nl/2013/12/it-is-important-to-note-thatand-other.html http://womeninwetlands.blogspot.nl/2013/12/it-is-important-t... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%22Note_that%22_is_unnecessary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%22Note_that%22_is_u... [3] http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/266529/similar-phrases-words-meaning-it-is-worth-mentioning http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/266529/similar-ph...
- Houshalter 10y agoWell this is 9 days old so I doubt you or anyone will see it. But I really want to say that this is just how language evolves. Phrases appear, become common, and even change meaning, subtly or entirely, from the original. I don't think it's a waste of space. I think it conveys some information. If you remove it from a paragraph, the paragraph feels different. The meaning slightly changes. In a literal sense it may not mean anything, but I feel it does convey some intention from the speaker.
- Swizec 10y agoIt is important to note that there is some writing that sounds like a college graduate wrote it and some writing that is good. There is no overlap.
- mschuster91 10y ago> The phrase is just filler and means nothing, yet it is used everywhere I guess this is due to legal concerns (which also provided us with pages-long email footer legalese bullcrap).
- tmikaeld 10y agoAccording to the numbers, Teslas cars are by far the safest ones you can drive. I don't expect autonomous driving to be perfect until all variables can be accounted for and the largest being humans behind the wheels.
- contravariant 10y agoAccording to the numbers there's a 25% probability it would have taken more than 130 million miles before the first fatality, assuming an average of 1 fatality every 94 million miles. That's ignoring the fact that Tesla's autopilot might only be used in situations with a relatively low average number of fatalities per million miles.
- vadym909 10y agoThis is just beyond me. How did the radars not see the front portion of the truck, the front wheels, the underbody of the container isn't that high to let the entire car go through?
- Svip 10y agoThis is what I was wondering too. Which is also why I predict (although basically speculating!) that an alert driver would have noticed the actual lorry itself and made the assumption that it carried a trailer, and at the very least slowed down.
- farhanhubble 10y agoPoor software engineering, maybe. It'd be interesting to look at the picture that the radar painted for itself.
- fnump 10y agoMusk: "Radar tunes out what looks like an overhead road sign to avoid false braking events". So there's that. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/748625979271045121 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/748625979271045121
- phire 10y agoIt's a narrow beam radar (about 200m range) which checks the current lane is clear, it probably assumed the other parts of the truck were some obstacle on the side of the road (or in another lane) I'm not even sure the radar has a height dimension, I suspect they just focused it at bumper height to catch most cars. The car also has a single camera in the front to see the lane markers, and a short range ultrasonic system to give it a 360 degree view, out to a few meters. For the amount of confidence drivers are putting into the system, Tesla don't have anywhere enough sensor data.
- gambiting 10y agoIt was explained elsewhere that the radar does not scan "up" to avoid collision warning for overpasses. Actually I remember reading a reddit thread months ago saying that a Tesla in Autopilot could, theoretically, hit a steel beam that was sticking out onto the road at around the roof height, because the radar wouldn't see it. And I absolutely agree with your last sentence - these cars need more sensors.
- beefsack 10y agoI understand they're trying to protect their reputation, but the tone of the post is really defensive and hand-wavy which really sucks the compassion out of it.
- fscherer 10y agoI would have found it much more appropriate to first offer condolences before stating numbers about how good their system is performing
- mysterypie 10y agoParaphrasing from the article: Tesla Autopilot: 1 fatality per 130 million miles All US vehicles: 1 fatality per 94 million miles Worldwide vehicles: 1 fatality per 60 million miles If the statistics above are accurate, logically there should be no reason for distress, worry, accusations, or mistrust. Or at least much less so than for ordinary driving. It's like shark attacks: No matter how remote it is, there's going to be big debates about it, investigations, TV specials, lawsuits, hand wringing, and new laws.
- amelius 10y agoWell, if you read those vehicle statistics as "the richer the people, the less fatalities", then those Tesla Autopilot scores may be worse than you might expect.
- pisarzp 10y agoBut isn't Tesla autopilot working only in highways, which are much safer then average road? Then this statistic wouldn't be that good.
- alex_duf 10y agoAs tragic as it is, I don't think one case makes it enough to call it a statistic yet
- comboy 10y agoIf the average is 1 per 90M, it's worth remembering that with just 130M tested, the variance is huge.
- kozak 10y agoIf all the world drove cars whose passive safety was as good as Tesla Model S, number of miles driven per fatality worldwide would be more than 130 million miles, I think. An average car around the globe is quite a junk. I think we should compare the Tesla Autopilot numbers only with non-Autopilot Tesla numbers.
- Achshar 10y agoOk, I'll bite. What's [Dupe]? Kind of like reddit tags for posts I assume?
- fscherer 10y agotagging duplicates, I assume
- r721 10y agoThere's already 400+ comments discussion, so mods tagged this one as dupe.
- cm3 10y agoThe dupe detector needs to be improved so that submissions cannot be posted twice. It works when I try to submit something which just has been posted the same day, but there must be some logic that allows it to be reposted and also the URL check isn't sufficient. Alternatively a merge of posts by moderators would be okay, too.
- santialbo 10y agoMaybe they should stop calling it autopilot and start calling it driving assist like every other car makers does.
- _Codemonkeyism 10y agoWhat strikes me most is that the first paragraph is only dedicated to the benefit of Tesla, trying to downplay the event by comparing it to human drivers. After three more paragraphs to deflect damage from Tesla the last paragraph - like an afterthought - is about the tragedy of the death of a person. Perhaps this is just me. I at least would have wished the first paragraph would have followed the headline of "A tragic loss".
- antaviana 10y agoThere's a 10% of abandonement for each additional paragraph in the post so you need to put the most important facts first to ensure your message is conveyed. Their priority is to restablish confidence and there is nothing that can be done to bring that person back to life. They are trying to save other people's lives by pushing their idea for a safer driving.
- _Codemonkeyism 10y agoFor me they have tarnished their brand. They are just like all the others. Puff, magic gone with one press release. All of Musks talk, in the end he is not different than profit-above-all GM executives - a little more brilliant perhaps.