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Come on folks. John Baez has dismissed it [1]. For those who don't know who John Baez is, it's as if Terry Tao dismissed your math homework. For those who don't

Come on folks. John Baez has dismissed it [1]. For those who don't know who John Baez is, it's as if Terry Tao dismissed your math homework. For those who don't know who Terry Tao is... whatever. Just stop. [1] https://plus.google.com/app/basic/stream/z13gzfm4xt2tuxehl04chvywcofjhhzhwbk https://plus.google.com/app/basic/stream/z13gzfm4xt2tuxehl04...

danharaj 10y ago
John Baez and Terence Tao are as nice as they are smart and i think you're doing them a disservice by using them to be condescending.
- cousin_it 10y ago
  Have you read Baez's post that I linked? It's way more harsh than my comment. "Mumbo jumbo", "Failed a course in quantum field theory and then smoked too much weed"... Also I'm getting seriously creeped out by the amount of EmDrive non-skeptics on HN. Maybe we should make a poll whether 0.999... = 1, and then say that anyone who insists on the correct answer is "condescending".
  - vardump 10y ago
    Ad hominems and appeals to authority are such letdowns. Almost as those who might even admit they know nothing about it, but feel they're qualified to judge validity of some scientific claim. And provide <insert subculture> mantra as "evidence".
    - cousin_it 10y ago
      I do know quite a bit about physics. But if I just said the EmDrive is nonsense due to conservation of momentum (which is the 100% correct answer with no caveats), people would shut me down because "NASA scientists know what they're doing". That would be an appeal to authority. So I mention Baez preemptively, but it seems like that's not a winning tactic either. What would convince you, pray tell?
      - vardump 10y ago
        > you'd shut me down because "NASA scientists know what they're doing" I've said nothing like that. A working experiment that provides irrefutable data is needed to convince me in any way. Refutation I'd need to leave for others to do, not my competence. I really like EmDrive as an idea and hope it will work out. It's very inspiring when someone has the guts to push it despite the dominant (scientific) opinion. If it does work out, these people will be some of our greatest heroes. After all, sometimes people like these have been right in the past in adverse scientific atmosphere. I'm just content to follow it from the sidelines. If I had to bet on EmDrive, I'd have to bet against it.
        cousin_it 10y ago
        I understand your position. The real question is how much you should weigh a single experiment vs. the abstract idea of conservation of momentum. It's tempting to trust the experiment all the way, and imagine that science demands such open-mindedness. But the more physics you study, the more likely you are to trust the abstract idea instead, because you realize just how incredibly well-supported it is. It's a kind of certainty that has almost no analogue in other sciences. Even in a very careful experiment, measurement error is many times more likely than overturning conservation of momentum. (Also measurement error is much more devious than people imagine, but that's another story.) I'm very confident ($100 to $1 at least) that the EmDrive is a story of measurement error, compounded by ignorance and optimism.
        vardump 10y ago
        We're largely in agreement. On a philosophical point of view, it worries me that physics might be optimizing towards a local maxima. Which might or might not be the global one. That there even might be something big it has missed. How would we know? Even more so because physicists seem to be more and more specialized to a narrow sub-field. Everything is already so advanced it takes more and more years to just to master it. Individual contributions appear to be getting smaller and smaller. Is it possible there's something they don't see because they're too near looking at it? Studying a mountain with a microscope. Is possible we're stuck in a some sort of dead end? I really can't judge it either way. I just can't stop wondering about that.
  - danharaj 10y ago
    You were being condescending towards people who don't know about Baez and Tao. Bring critical of crackpot theories is warranted; the flimsier the idea the more pointed the criticism. He isn't nasty though.
  - ceejayoz 10y ago
    > Also I'm getting seriously creeped out by the amount of EmDrive non-skeptics on HN. I can't find a single one in the comments here...

danharaj 10y ago

John Baez and Terence Tao are as nice as they are smart and i think you're doing them a disservice by using them to be condescending.

cousin_it 10y ago
Have you read Baez's post that I linked? It's way more harsh than my comment. "Mumbo jumbo", "Failed a course in quantum field theory and then smoked too much weed"... Also I'm getting seriously creeped out by the amount of EmDrive non-skeptics on HN. Maybe we should make a poll whether 0.999... = 1, and then say that anyone who insists on the correct answer is "condescending".
- vardump 10y ago
  Ad hominems and appeals to authority are such letdowns. Almost as those who might even admit they know nothing about it, but feel they're qualified to judge validity of some scientific claim. And provide <insert subculture> mantra as "evidence".
  - cousin_it 10y ago
    I do know quite a bit about physics. But if I just said the EmDrive is nonsense due to conservation of momentum (which is the 100% correct answer with no caveats), people would shut me down because "NASA scientists know what they're doing". That would be an appeal to authority. So I mention Baez preemptively, but it seems like that's not a winning tactic either. What would convince you, pray tell?
    - vardump 10y ago
      > you'd shut me down because "NASA scientists know what they're doing" I've said nothing like that. A working experiment that provides irrefutable data is needed to convince me in any way. Refutation I'd need to leave for others to do, not my competence. I really like EmDrive as an idea and hope it will work out. It's very inspiring when someone has the guts to push it despite the dominant (scientific) opinion. If it does work out, these people will be some of our greatest heroes. After all, sometimes people like these have been right in the past in adverse scientific atmosphere. I'm just content to follow it from the sidelines. If I had to bet on EmDrive, I'd have to bet against it.
      - cousin_it 10y ago
        I understand your position. The real question is how much you should weigh a single experiment vs. the abstract idea of conservation of momentum. It's tempting to trust the experiment all the way, and imagine that science demands such open-mindedness. But the more physics you study, the more likely you are to trust the abstract idea instead, because you realize just how incredibly well-supported it is. It's a kind of certainty that has almost no analogue in other sciences. Even in a very careful experiment, measurement error is many times more likely than overturning conservation of momentum. (Also measurement error is much more devious than people imagine, but that's another story.) I'm very confident ($100 to $1 at least) that the EmDrive is a story of measurement error, compounded by ignorance and optimism.
        vardump 10y ago
        We're largely in agreement. On a philosophical point of view, it worries me that physics might be optimizing towards a local maxima. Which might or might not be the global one. That there even might be something big it has missed. How would we know? Even more so because physicists seem to be more and more specialized to a narrow sub-field. Everything is already so advanced it takes more and more years to just to master it. Individual contributions appear to be getting smaller and smaller. Is it possible there's something they don't see because they're too near looking at it? Studying a mountain with a microscope. Is possible we're stuck in a some sort of dead end? I really can't judge it either way. I just can't stop wondering about that.
- danharaj 10y ago
  You were being condescending towards people who don't know about Baez and Tao. Bring critical of crackpot theories is warranted; the flimsier the idea the more pointed the criticism. He isn't nasty though.
- ceejayoz 10y ago
  > Also I'm getting seriously creeped out by the amount of EmDrive non-skeptics on HN. I can't find a single one in the comments here...