8 ms·

Coming Soon: Gut Bacteria That Cure Disease

184 points by HillaryBriss 10y ago

Aelinsaar 10y ago
Well... that will cure your C. Diff.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  Also, obesity. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/06/health/gut-bacteria-from-thin-humans-can-slim-mice-down.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/06/health/gut-bacteria-from-t... http://www.bbc.com/news/health-31168511 http://www.bbc.com/news/health-31168511
  - Aelinsaar 10y ago
    Hopefully, but there need to be some pretty extensive human trials first.
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT02530385 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT02530385
      - Aelinsaar 10y ago
        At MGH! Well, they could get some good results either way, and quickly.
- ksenzee 10y ago
  C. diff. is just the disease first in line. Chronic fatigue syndrome may be lining up behind it: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/06/30/new-study-shows-chronic-fatigue-isnt-just-in-your-head-it-may-have-to-do-with-your-gut/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/0...
  - raelshark 10y ago
    > First, the indicators could be used in the future to help diagnose the condition, as they were present in 83 percent of the patients with chronic fatigue syndrome. Second, it suggests that diet and things like probiotics may be a way to help treat the disease by getting the gut microbiome back in balance. This kind of reporting bugs me. They might have found a possible correlation here, that's all. Yes, that first item is a possibility because the correlated indicators could be used to detect conditions related to CFS, but the second item is pure speculation about cause and effect, and is jumping to conclusions about it pertaining to treatment. Personal anecdotal insight - I have a genetic condition that affects both my gastrointestinal system and causes chronic fatigue-like symptoms. I'm treating both separately but because there's an underlying condition affecting both independently (probably), it doesn't mean that treating one will improve the other. It's a longshot possibility, but saying "may be a way to help treat the disease" is just interpretation and overly-optimistic hype. The indicators they found do sound really interesting though. If validated it would be an amazing benefit to patients just to confirm that there's a biological factor to these conditions.
chris_va 10y ago
From what I understand, getting these treatments through the FDA was rather tricky. This paves the way for future treatments. The money quote: The company has built a microbiome library of 14,000 strains of human bacteria it hopes will help it treat a range of diseases, eventually without needing feces at all.
bdg 10y ago
Not cool... Bloomberg is telling me I am using an additional blocker and literally have no extensions installed.
- protomyth 10y ago
  We block one or two ad networks on our local network because of spyware payloads and we get these boxes too from time to time. So, it might be upstream of you.
kensai 10y ago
However, please be cautious, there are lot of things that are left to be desired out there. I recently read about their use in stroke patients for example. Lots of things about the microbiota is simply wishful thinking. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26945017 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26945017
zkhalique 10y ago
Gut bacteria from thin people can help lose weight?
- milesvp 10y ago
  Not sure how much gut bacteria will help with weight loss, but it does seem to go the other way. One of my favorite papers in the field in the last couple years shows a potential causal relationship between obesity and gut biomes by using artificial sweetener and a fecal transplant in mice. Paywalled version in nature: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature13793.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/natu... Unpaywalled version after googling: http://www.drperlmutter.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Artificial-Sweeteners.pdf http://www.drperlmutter.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Artif...
- Remington 10y ago
  I believe it absolutely can. It has gone the other way where someone got FMT from an obese person and they needed up obese themselves! makes perfect sense since the gut bacteria is the actual digester of your meals. They will determine how to digest the various fat/protein/carb/sugar you eat. So people with say.. thyroid problem who typically gain weight out of their control probably stems from gut bac imbalance I'm conjecturing because believe or not the gut bac also has a say in productions of hormone from all your glands. I would bet those individuals if gotten FMT from a healthy donor would reverse that course.
codebeaker 10y ago
I have a food intolerance based allergy/autoimmune issue which is under a broad headline of "Non IgE mediated autoimmune disorder".. manifestations are depression, fatigue, chronic skin issues (on my face :-(). I've been told the only "cure" is to abstain from eating about ~160 staple foods that contain proteins that my autoimmune system incorrectly recognises as something to attack, the problem is however you can barely get through a day without eating one of those staples unless you cook all your own food, and don't mind eating tuna, rice, chicken and (some) beans all the time. I have a lot to look forward to from these treatments. I've had very good experiences with General Biotics' (SFO) product which claims to try and get the gut bacteria back in balance, I have no affiliation with them other than a dependence on their product if I want to be sane, happy and healthy in the short term..
- e40 10y ago
  I have a friend with a similar problem, and she eats a lot of fish as a result. She recently found out she has a very high mercury level. Be careful if you eat a lot of tuna. She switched to chicken. I wish more research was being done on problems like you and my friend have.
  - nibs 10y ago
    Is she eating only huge fish? Small fish selenium > mercury, which bind to each other and are not absorbed.
    - e40 10y ago
      Actually, she was high on more than just mercury, so probably she was high on selenium, too. She had to go through some expensive treatment with many side effects. Nasty stuff.
  - Kenji 10y ago
    That's very interesting. What kinds of time periods and amounts of fish do we speak of here? Years and eating a fish meal every couple of days? Because I love fish (also a lean source of protein) so I better be careful with that. How did she find out? Was she unwell and went to a doctor to get blood work done?
rflrob 10y ago
A microbiome treatment for C. diff (which is what the article mainly focuses on) seems eminently plausible, and an effective treatment can't come soon enough. However, for a lot of the other diseases that the title hints at (and are mentioned in only one paragraph in the article), there's just not that much reason to be hopeful. We have a pretty good handle on what causes cancer, and while you can tell a story about gut->immune system->{cancer, liver disease, OCD}, there's just a lot more places for things to not work. [1] has a great summary of the current state of research on the microbiome-health connection: "We still don’t really understand what these microbes are doing, so we can’t infer what their absence or presence implies." [1]http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/06/the-plot-holes-in-the-human-microbiome-story/486947/ http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/06/the-plot-...
slmyers 10y ago
Vice on HBO recently (June 24/2016) did an interesting segment on this subject.
ojbyrne 10y ago
I feel that given trials, regulatory approval, and all the other obstacles facing new drugs (briefly referenced in the article), "Coming Soon" is the height of hyperbole.
jcoffland 10y ago
> “Patients have different preferences,” Hecht observes, but “in general, people don’t particularly like enemas.” This is probably the best argument against a competitor's product that I have heard.
krzysiek 10y ago
It's tempting to say that some proof is not there yet, but considering the amount of studies published every year and inability to read even abstracts of all of them it's often far fetched. It was shown more than once that certain gut bacteria cure certain kinds of allergies: http://evidenceba.se/answers/17-allergies-can-be-treated-with-prebiotics-answer-to-how-can-you-cure-allergy http://evidenceba.se/answers/17-allergies-can-be-treated-wit...
Remington 10y ago
Mark my words: There will be two new types of "banks" : youthful post puberty blood bank of 15-25yrs old and banks for same age group of fecal deposits. There is nothing like a body at the peak of performance and function. Best case, you would be encouraged to save your own blood and fecal matter for your later years. Worse case, you'll have to buy both. Oh my goodness though... you can actually make $$ from selling your.... but I think it will happen. I believe this is just the beginning of how/what gut bacteria actually does for your body. Ever wonder why something like prozac causes constipation when all it's supposed to do is increase serotonin levels in your brain? Just a brain fart..thinking out loud.
- jhanschoo 10y ago
  From Wikipedia: Approximately 90% of the human body's total serotonin is located in the enterochromaffin cells in the GI tract, where it is used to regulate intestinal movements. My experience with SSRIs is that I feel a difference in my gut before a mood difference.
  - Remington 10y ago
    Another reason why someone who has ulcerative colitis / crohn's could get some benefit by using a drug specifically to target brain function like SSRI type drugs. I think brain chemistry altering drug could assist in autoimmune type diseases.
- louprado 10y ago
  At the moment blood isn't cheap or easy to preserve. Then there is a matter of supply. Current research involving parabiosis in mice required a significant age difference and a continuous supply. Meaning you spend 15 - 25 trying to produce double the amount of blood just so you have what you need when you are 70 to 80. Transgenic xeno blood is a more likely solution if not synthetic blood or protein filtering. Regarding self fecal implants, the case where it could be most beneficial is in post antibiotic treatment. I recall seeing a a before/after graph of gut flora. Antibiotics had the effect of a nuclear bomb. Even years later, gut flora was still a fraction of what it had been.
justinph 10y ago
It takes far too long to get a fecal transplant for c. diff, especially when it has a proven success rate of about 92%, compared to 50-80% for the antibiotics. This is a big deal.
louprado 10y ago
The OP mentions OpenBiome which is the worlds first independent stool bank and supplies feces for transplants. They have a 3% acceptance rate for donors and select only the healthiest individuals. It would interesting to see how their screening process evolves given the plausibility of all the health affects beyond the GI system of fecal transplants. For example, it may be that mental health wasn't screened beyond a cursory exam but later it could be a significant part of screening. But if they are already reject 97% of donors and the demand is increasing, the economics encourages lowering the screening bar, not raising it.
vermilingua 10y ago
News like this, and CRISPR, and pending patents on genes, seems eerily similar to the prelude to Gene Wars... http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/gene-wars/ http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/gene-wars/
Remington 10y ago
Another unique properties accidentally being discovered from FMT aka fecal implanting is the recipients seems to inherent the donor's properties like being obese to having affinity to certain types of foods. Soon we may discover that if we want muscle growth, we simply get FMT from a bodybuilder or if you want more efficient metabolism you get FMT from an endurance runner. Additionally, you may be able to over come any food allergies like peanuts by getting a FMT from someone who isn't allergic. I think the possibilities of this yet to be understood cure all of gut bacteria is just beginning. This could be a GREAT disruptive game in the medical field. Wanna startup? :)
e12e 10y ago
'He's not an 'acceptable person' -- he's like an armed warhead! You wondered about drug factories -- Sticky Thompson is a drug factory." "What's that supposed to mean?" Laura said. "I mean his guts are full of bacteria. Special ones -- little drug factories. Where do you think he got that nickname -- Sticky? He can eat a carton of yogurt and it turns him into a killing machine." "A killing machine?" Laura said. "A carton of yogurt?" "It's the enzymes. The bugs eat'em. Make him fast -- strong -- feeling no pain, no doubt at all. They're gonna sic him on ... and wow, I feel sorry for that little ..."' -- Islands in the Net, Bruce Sterling, 1988
ascotan 10y ago
So you can use yogurt to deliver medicine rather than a pill. After reading the article this seems to be a piece paid for Seres Therapeutics in order to raise their stock price.
stillbourne 10y ago
Am I the only person that remains skeptical about these claims?

184 points by HillaryBriss 10y ago

Aelinsaar 10y ago

Well... that will cure your C. Diff.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
Also, obesity. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/06/health/gut-bacteria-from-thin-humans-can-slim-mice-down.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/06/health/gut-bacteria-from-t... http://www.bbc.com/news/health-31168511 http://www.bbc.com/news/health-31168511
- Aelinsaar 10y ago
  Hopefully, but there need to be some pretty extensive human trials first.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT02530385 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT02530385
    - Aelinsaar 10y ago
      At MGH! Well, they could get some good results either way, and quickly.
ksenzee 10y ago
C. diff. is just the disease first in line. Chronic fatigue syndrome may be lining up behind it: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/06/30/new-study-shows-chronic-fatigue-isnt-just-in-your-head-it-may-have-to-do-with-your-gut/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/0...
- raelshark 10y ago
  > First, the indicators could be used in the future to help diagnose the condition, as they were present in 83 percent of the patients with chronic fatigue syndrome. Second, it suggests that diet and things like probiotics may be a way to help treat the disease by getting the gut microbiome back in balance. This kind of reporting bugs me. They might have found a possible correlation here, that's all. Yes, that first item is a possibility because the correlated indicators could be used to detect conditions related to CFS, but the second item is pure speculation about cause and effect, and is jumping to conclusions about it pertaining to treatment. Personal anecdotal insight - I have a genetic condition that affects both my gastrointestinal system and causes chronic fatigue-like symptoms. I'm treating both separately but because there's an underlying condition affecting both independently (probably), it doesn't mean that treating one will improve the other. It's a longshot possibility, but saying "may be a way to help treat the disease" is just interpretation and overly-optimistic hype. The indicators they found do sound really interesting though. If validated it would be an amazing benefit to patients just to confirm that there's a biological factor to these conditions.

chris_va 10y ago

From what I understand, getting these treatments through the FDA was rather tricky. This paves the way for future treatments. The money quote: The company has built a microbiome library of 14,000 strains of human bacteria it hopes will help it treat a range of diseases, eventually without needing feces at all.

bdg 10y ago

Not cool... Bloomberg is telling me I am using an additional blocker and literally have no extensions installed.

protomyth 10y ago
We block one or two ad networks on our local network because of spyware payloads and we get these boxes too from time to time. So, it might be upstream of you.

kensai 10y ago

However, please be cautious, there are lot of things that are left to be desired out there. I recently read about their use in stroke patients for example. Lots of things about the microbiota is simply wishful thinking. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26945017 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26945017

zkhalique 10y ago

Gut bacteria from thin people can help lose weight?

milesvp 10y ago
Not sure how much gut bacteria will help with weight loss, but it does seem to go the other way. One of my favorite papers in the field in the last couple years shows a potential causal relationship between obesity and gut biomes by using artificial sweetener and a fecal transplant in mice. Paywalled version in nature: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature13793.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/natu... Unpaywalled version after googling: http://www.drperlmutter.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Artificial-Sweeteners.pdf http://www.drperlmutter.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Artif...
Remington 10y ago
I believe it absolutely can. It has gone the other way where someone got FMT from an obese person and they needed up obese themselves! makes perfect sense since the gut bacteria is the actual digester of your meals. They will determine how to digest the various fat/protein/carb/sugar you eat. So people with say.. thyroid problem who typically gain weight out of their control probably stems from gut bac imbalance I'm conjecturing because believe or not the gut bac also has a say in productions of hormone from all your glands. I would bet those individuals if gotten FMT from a healthy donor would reverse that course.

codebeaker 10y ago

I have a food intolerance based allergy/autoimmune issue which is under a broad headline of "Non IgE mediated autoimmune disorder".. manifestations are depression, fatigue, chronic skin issues (on my face :-(). I've been told the only "cure" is to abstain from eating about ~160 staple foods that contain proteins that my autoimmune system incorrectly recognises as something to attack, the problem is however you can barely get through a day without eating one of those staples unless you cook all your own food, and don't mind eating tuna, rice, chicken and (some) beans all the time. I have a lot to look forward to from these treatments. I've had very good experiences with General Biotics' (SFO) product which claims to try and get the gut bacteria back in balance, I have no affiliation with them other than a dependence on their product if I want to be sane, happy and healthy in the short term..

e40 10y ago
I have a friend with a similar problem, and she eats a lot of fish as a result. She recently found out she has a very high mercury level. Be careful if you eat a lot of tuna. She switched to chicken. I wish more research was being done on problems like you and my friend have.
- nibs 10y ago
  Is she eating only huge fish? Small fish selenium > mercury, which bind to each other and are not absorbed.
  - e40 10y ago
    Actually, she was high on more than just mercury, so probably she was high on selenium, too. She had to go through some expensive treatment with many side effects. Nasty stuff.
- Kenji 10y ago
  That's very interesting. What kinds of time periods and amounts of fish do we speak of here? Years and eating a fish meal every couple of days? Because I love fish (also a lean source of protein) so I better be careful with that. How did she find out? Was she unwell and went to a doctor to get blood work done?

rflrob 10y ago

A microbiome treatment for C. diff (which is what the article mainly focuses on) seems eminently plausible, and an effective treatment can't come soon enough. However, for a lot of the other diseases that the title hints at (and are mentioned in only one paragraph in the article), there's just not that much reason to be hopeful. We have a pretty good handle on what causes cancer, and while you can tell a story about gut->immune system->{cancer, liver disease, OCD}, there's just a lot more places for things to not work. [1] has a great summary of the current state of research on the microbiome-health connection: "We still don’t really understand what these microbes are doing, so we can’t infer what their absence or presence implies." [1]http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/06/the-plot-holes-in-the-human-microbiome-story/486947/ http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/06/the-plot-...

slmyers 10y ago

Vice on HBO recently (June 24/2016) did an interesting segment on this subject.

ojbyrne 10y ago

I feel that given trials, regulatory approval, and all the other obstacles facing new drugs (briefly referenced in the article), "Coming Soon" is the height of hyperbole.

jcoffland 10y ago

> “Patients have different preferences,” Hecht observes, but “in general, people don’t particularly like enemas.” This is probably the best argument against a competitor's product that I have heard.

krzysiek 10y ago

It's tempting to say that some proof is not there yet, but considering the amount of studies published every year and inability to read even abstracts of all of them it's often far fetched. It was shown more than once that certain gut bacteria cure certain kinds of allergies: http://evidenceba.se/answers/17-allergies-can-be-treated-with-prebiotics-answer-to-how-can-you-cure-allergy http://evidenceba.se/answers/17-allergies-can-be-treated-wit...

Remington 10y ago

Mark my words: There will be two new types of "banks" : youthful post puberty blood bank of 15-25yrs old and banks for same age group of fecal deposits. There is nothing like a body at the peak of performance and function. Best case, you would be encouraged to save your own blood and fecal matter for your later years. Worse case, you'll have to buy both. Oh my goodness though... you can actually make $$ from selling your.... but I think it will happen. I believe this is just the beginning of how/what gut bacteria actually does for your body. Ever wonder why something like prozac causes constipation when all it's supposed to do is increase serotonin levels in your brain? Just a brain fart..thinking out loud.

jhanschoo 10y ago
From Wikipedia: Approximately 90% of the human body's total serotonin is located in the enterochromaffin cells in the GI tract, where it is used to regulate intestinal movements. My experience with SSRIs is that I feel a difference in my gut before a mood difference.
- Remington 10y ago
  Another reason why someone who has ulcerative colitis / crohn's could get some benefit by using a drug specifically to target brain function like SSRI type drugs. I think brain chemistry altering drug could assist in autoimmune type diseases.
louprado 10y ago
At the moment blood isn't cheap or easy to preserve. Then there is a matter of supply. Current research involving parabiosis in mice required a significant age difference and a continuous supply. Meaning you spend 15 - 25 trying to produce double the amount of blood just so you have what you need when you are 70 to 80. Transgenic xeno blood is a more likely solution if not synthetic blood or protein filtering. Regarding self fecal implants, the case where it could be most beneficial is in post antibiotic treatment. I recall seeing a a before/after graph of gut flora. Antibiotics had the effect of a nuclear bomb. Even years later, gut flora was still a fraction of what it had been.

justinph 10y ago

It takes far too long to get a fecal transplant for c. diff, especially when it has a proven success rate of about 92%, compared to 50-80% for the antibiotics. This is a big deal.

louprado 10y ago

The OP mentions OpenBiome which is the worlds first independent stool bank and supplies feces for transplants. They have a 3% acceptance rate for donors and select only the healthiest individuals. It would interesting to see how their screening process evolves given the plausibility of all the health affects beyond the GI system of fecal transplants. For example, it may be that mental health wasn't screened beyond a cursory exam but later it could be a significant part of screening. But if they are already reject 97% of donors and the demand is increasing, the economics encourages lowering the screening bar, not raising it.

vermilingua 10y ago

News like this, and CRISPR, and pending patents on genes, seems eerily similar to the prelude to Gene Wars... http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/gene-wars/ http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/gene-wars/

Remington 10y ago

Another unique properties accidentally being discovered from FMT aka fecal implanting is the recipients seems to inherent the donor's properties like being obese to having affinity to certain types of foods. Soon we may discover that if we want muscle growth, we simply get FMT from a bodybuilder or if you want more efficient metabolism you get FMT from an endurance runner. Additionally, you may be able to over come any food allergies like peanuts by getting a FMT from someone who isn't allergic. I think the possibilities of this yet to be understood cure all of gut bacteria is just beginning. This could be a GREAT disruptive game in the medical field. Wanna startup? :)

e12e 10y ago

'He's not an 'acceptable person' -- he's like an armed warhead! You wondered about drug factories -- Sticky Thompson is a drug factory." "What's that supposed to mean?" Laura said. "I mean his guts are full of bacteria. Special ones -- little drug factories. Where do you think he got that nickname -- Sticky? He can eat a carton of yogurt and it turns him into a killing machine." "A killing machine?" Laura said. "A carton of yogurt?" "It's the enzymes. The bugs eat'em. Make him fast -- strong -- feeling no pain, no doubt at all. They're gonna sic him on ... and wow, I feel sorry for that little ..."' -- Islands in the Net, Bruce Sterling, 1988

ascotan 10y ago

So you can use yogurt to deliver medicine rather than a pill. After reading the article this seems to be a piece paid for Seres Therapeutics in order to raise their stock price.

stillbourne 10y ago

Am I the only person that remains skeptical about these claims?