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I'm not sure I'm understanding your point, but I would definitely argue that society now is better than that of the 1920s. The medical/tech advances alone woul

I'm not sure I'm understanding your point, but I would definitely argue that society now is better than that of the 1920s. The medical/tech advances alone would make my point, but you seem to want to ignore those, so I'll stick with social aspects. Our populace is more educated, less violent, healthier, and wealthier than we were in the 1920s. Heck, on Wall Street the 1920s was a decade of greed and moral decrepitude (if you get into that sort of name calling) that is possibly only rivalled by the 1980s. Go back 30 years, and you are squarely in the 'Gilded Age', where the Senate was completely controlled by large companies (to the point where the companies simply picked candidates and ushered them through state legislatures, because Senators weren't popularly elected yet). After that came the Progressive years, where we learned that our meat was lethal and other things, and women finally got treated like human beings. How could any of those decades be considered better than the current one? Sure, women's suffrage was a great accomplishment, but only because the reality to that point was so bad. My brother has a saying... "progress, not perfection". American history has been exactly that. Sure, there are temporary setbacks (no one can argue the 1930s were better than the 1920s really), and there are local setbacks (1980s Detroit?) but the overall story is progress. Thankfully the small victories accumulate faster than the setbacks, leaving us with a better society all the time. I guess if we need the jeremiad to motivate us to make progress, then that is fine. I was simply commenting that it's disingenuous to pretend that it's somehow different this time. If it really were different, you wouldn't be sitting around musing about it, you'd be dealing with a collapsing society. But I guess if you realize that, the jeremiad loses it's power, so maybe it's better we keep pretending that things are going to hell.

nopassrecover 17y ago
I see your point about progress but I'm not sure I agree that everything has progressed. At the very least it seems as though it has taken us 70 years to revive the booms in social rights and lifestyle that happened in 10 years through the 1920s. I guess I just find it hard to look at kids growing up in LA among regular gang violence, or murders and regular serious violence happening in schools and say that this is progress. Some comparison points: Marriage rates have fallen massively. Divorce rates have risen massively. % Illiteracy (1930: 4.3% / 1%) (1930 had significant gains since prior decade) However, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States raises serious questions about current literacy rates, suggesting illteracy may be 25% or higher, the point being claiming we are more educated on average is questionable. Prisoners / 100k (1929: 98.8 | 2008: 754) Crime Rates: Statistics vary but seem comparable. This was quite a surprise as crime rates today are around double that of 1960 (much higher for particular forms of crime). Mean income (only counts those who filed, inflation adjusted to 2007) (1923: $74,102.15 | 2007: $62,369) Life Expectancy: Much higher now, but general sources suggest this is due to medicine, not better living (factors such as lack of exercise and poor nutrition are considerably higher now).
- matwood 17y ago
  I think what your stats and the comment you replied to is showing is that America has gotten better, but there is a growing class divide between the haves and the have nots. I'm not talking about the super rich or the wall street guys, but by and large the knowledge/new economy/professional workers and then everyone else. I believe most(all?) people on HN would by default be in the haves. They are educated and understand what it takes today to be successful. They may be broke, but rarely poor. Then there is a large group of people who are not only uneducated in these matters, but they are also poor and have no means or understanding on how to change their situation. The problem is that the gap between the two groups is growing larger and larger. How we get those on the have not side to make the jump is a growing challenge.
- anamax 17y ago
  > Crime Rates: Statistics vary but seem comparable. This was quite a surprise as crime rates today are around double that of 1960 (much higher for particular forms of crime). Yes, but 1960 was right before a huge explosion in US crime. US crime rates now are significantly lower than they've been for some time. The fact that they're still higher than they were in 1960 shows the magnitude of that explosion.

nopassrecover 17y ago

I see your point about progress but I'm not sure I agree that everything has progressed. At the very least it seems as though it has taken us 70 years to revive the booms in social rights and lifestyle that happened in 10 years through the 1920s. I guess I just find it hard to look at kids growing up in LA among regular gang violence, or murders and regular serious violence happening in schools and say that this is progress. Some comparison points: Marriage rates have fallen massively. Divorce rates have risen massively. % Illiteracy (1930: 4.3% / 1%) (1930 had significant gains since prior decade) However, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States raises serious questions about current literacy rates, suggesting illteracy may be 25% or higher, the point being claiming we are more educated on average is questionable. Prisoners / 100k (1929: 98.8 | 2008: 754) Crime Rates: Statistics vary but seem comparable. This was quite a surprise as crime rates today are around double that of 1960 (much higher for particular forms of crime). Mean income (only counts those who filed, inflation adjusted to 2007) (1923: $74,102.15 | 2007: $62,369) Life Expectancy: Much higher now, but general sources suggest this is due to medicine, not better living (factors such as lack of exercise and poor nutrition are considerably higher now).

matwood 17y ago
I think what your stats and the comment you replied to is showing is that America has gotten better, but there is a growing class divide between the haves and the have nots. I'm not talking about the super rich or the wall street guys, but by and large the knowledge/new economy/professional workers and then everyone else. I believe most(all?) people on HN would by default be in the haves. They are educated and understand what it takes today to be successful. They may be broke, but rarely poor. Then there is a large group of people who are not only uneducated in these matters, but they are also poor and have no means or understanding on how to change their situation. The problem is that the gap between the two groups is growing larger and larger. How we get those on the have not side to make the jump is a growing challenge.
anamax 17y ago
> Crime Rates: Statistics vary but seem comparable. This was quite a surprise as crime rates today are around double that of 1960 (much higher for particular forms of crime). Yes, but 1960 was right before a huge explosion in US crime. US crime rates now are significantly lower than they've been for some time. The fact that they're still higher than they were in 1960 shows the magnitude of that explosion.