4 ms·

It amuses me that, since it's inception, America has essentially always moved from one jeremiad to another... and yet every year we keep pretending that there i

It amuses me that, since it's inception, America has essentially always moved from one jeremiad to another... and yet every year we keep pretending that there is something new about this. According to Americans, things have been "going to hell" for over 200 years, and yet somehow this time it's different. On the upside, I think all this lamenting is just a sign of our ambition to be better... and that is a good thing.

nopassrecover 17y ago
Examine both America in the 1920s and America now. Can you say with complete conviction the American society of now is no worse? (to borrow an example from http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/ http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/ an easy way to negate the effect of medical/tech advances is to imagine a replica of 1920s America appearing overnight in the pacific - do you think it would take this country long to become a world power?) From the outside it seems as though America has been "going to hell" for at least the last 100 years.
- abstractbill 17y ago
  Examine both America in the 1920s and America now. Can you say with complete conviction the American society of now is no worse? Put yourself in the shoes of someone who isn't white, or is female, and ask the same question. There may be aspects of modern American society that are worse, but it's certainly better for a lot of people.
  - nopassrecover 17y ago
    I picked 1920s particularly for this reason as rights for women, non-whites AND homosexuals (which appear to still face an uphill battle in the US) had massive gains socially (it takes social acceptance before political acceptance). I will not pretend rights were better but this was an era that precipitated the modern rights advances. The 1930s witnessed a return to Victorian conservatism. Examples: Women's suffrage movement continues to make gains as women obtain full voting rights in the Grand Duchy of Finland in 1906, New Zealand in 1909, Denmark in 1915, in the United States in 1920, and in the United Kingdom in 1918 (women over 30) and in 1928 (full enfranchisement); and women begin to enter the workplace in larger numbers. (wikipedia) While blacks continued to be discriminated against there was increasing representation and labour gains as a result of increased migration to cities. In particular, democrats, socialists and communists all gained increasing black votes and voiced support for black rights ultimately leading to FDR's election (significant black votes) in 1932 and the New Deal which spelled significant rights gains for non-whites. (paraphrased from wikipedia and other "sources"). Until the early 1930s, gay clubs were openly operated, commonly known as "pansy clubs."[citation needed] The relative liberalism of the decade is demonstrated by the fact that the actor William Haines, regularly named in newspapers and magazines as the #1 male box-office draw, openly lived in a gay relationship with his partner, Jimmie Shields.[23] Other popular gay actors/actresses of the decade included Alla Nazimova and Ramon Novarro.[24] In 1927, Mae West wrote a play about homosexuality called, The Drag,.[25][26] and alluded to the work of Karl Heinrich Ulrichs. It was a box-office success. West regarded talking about sex as a basic human rights issue, and was also an early advocate of gay rights. With the return of conservatism in the 1930s, the public grew intolerant of homosexuality, and gay actors were forced to choose between retiring or agreeing to hide their sexuality.[citation needed] (source wikipedia)
    - abstractbill 17y ago
      That's actually some interesting stuff, thanks. I had no idea the 1930s were such a regression from the 1920s in the US for civil rights. However, I still think 2010 is better than either of those for most people.
      - nopassrecover 17y ago
        Yeah definitely is. I guess I should be talking about the first derivative of social rights. I believe this was higher in the 1920s than now.
    - protomyth 17y ago
      Well, since I grew up in "Indian Country" and Native American weren't granted citizenship until 1924, didn't really get full citizenship or suffrage until 1948, had schools that beat the language out of people, got forced moved off the reservations resulting in a huge percentage of suicides, and finally got some laws to protect the remaining culture in the last 30 years; I'm thinking we are better off then 1920. Oh, not to mention the longer lifespans and generally better conditions then 1920 (indoor plumbing being standard is kinda nice).
      - nopassrecover 17y ago
        I guess my point isn't that 1920s were better than now completely, but that the rate of social progress made in the 1920s (including citizenship for Native Americans as you've pointed out) was unparalleled. If that had continued my argument is that by 1940 society would be where it is now, instead of taking 1948 for full Native American rights, the 1960s for an end to segregation or 2003 for homosexuality to be legal. Do you think if the 1920s society could trade with modern society it would take long to exceed our lifespans with their healthier lifestyles and our modern medicine and plumbing as you've pointed out?
        protomyth 17y ago
        I think your view of 1920 society is limited to what was happening in a few urban centers to a few select minorities or social groups. I have heard stories from my grandma and great grandma's time and the 1920s was no "social revolution" for them. The citizenship from 1924 wasn't very real and more token then anything else. So, I guess to answer your question, no. I believe the 1920s society would have a lot of growing up to do and any back tracking from the economic problems of the 1930s would be intensified by today's economic problems combined with globalism. The 1920s started our isolationism that was only lifted (for the common man) by us being bombed.
- Xichekolas 17y ago
  I'm not sure I'm understanding your point, but I would definitely argue that society now is better than that of the 1920s. The medical/tech advances alone would make my point, but you seem to want to ignore those, so I'll stick with social aspects. Our populace is more educated, less violent, healthier, and wealthier than we were in the 1920s. Heck, on Wall Street the 1920s was a decade of greed and moral decrepitude (if you get into that sort of name calling) that is possibly only rivalled by the 1980s. Go back 30 years, and you are squarely in the 'Gilded Age', where the Senate was completely controlled by large companies (to the point where the companies simply picked candidates and ushered them through state legislatures, because Senators weren't popularly elected yet). After that came the Progressive years, where we learned that our meat was lethal and other things, and women finally got treated like human beings. How could any of those decades be considered better than the current one? Sure, women's suffrage was a great accomplishment, but only because the reality to that point was so bad. My brother has a saying... "progress, not perfection". American history has been exactly that. Sure, there are temporary setbacks (no one can argue the 1930s were better than the 1920s really), and there are local setbacks (1980s Detroit?) but the overall story is progress. Thankfully the small victories accumulate faster than the setbacks, leaving us with a better society all the time. I guess if we need the jeremiad to motivate us to make progress, then that is fine. I was simply commenting that it's disingenuous to pretend that it's somehow different this time. If it really were different, you wouldn't be sitting around musing about it, you'd be dealing with a collapsing society. But I guess if you realize that, the jeremiad loses it's power, so maybe it's better we keep pretending that things are going to hell.
  - nopassrecover 17y ago
    I see your point about progress but I'm not sure I agree that everything has progressed. At the very least it seems as though it has taken us 70 years to revive the booms in social rights and lifestyle that happened in 10 years through the 1920s. I guess I just find it hard to look at kids growing up in LA among regular gang violence, or murders and regular serious violence happening in schools and say that this is progress. Some comparison points: Marriage rates have fallen massively. Divorce rates have risen massively. % Illiteracy (1930: 4.3% / 1%) (1930 had significant gains since prior decade) However, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States raises serious questions about current literacy rates, suggesting illteracy may be 25% or higher, the point being claiming we are more educated on average is questionable. Prisoners / 100k (1929: 98.8 | 2008: 754) Crime Rates: Statistics vary but seem comparable. This was quite a surprise as crime rates today are around double that of 1960 (much higher for particular forms of crime). Mean income (only counts those who filed, inflation adjusted to 2007) (1923: $74,102.15 | 2007: $62,369) Life Expectancy: Much higher now, but general sources suggest this is due to medicine, not better living (factors such as lack of exercise and poor nutrition are considerably higher now).
abstractbill 17y ago
Right, the great thing about predicting the end of the world - or America going to hell, is that you can always say "not yet!" and you're never wrong.

nopassrecover 17y ago

Examine both America in the 1920s and America now. Can you say with complete conviction the American society of now is no worse? (to borrow an example from http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/ http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/ an easy way to negate the effect of medical/tech advances is to imagine a replica of 1920s America appearing overnight in the pacific - do you think it would take this country long to become a world power?) From the outside it seems as though America has been "going to hell" for at least the last 100 years.

abstractbill 17y ago
Examine both America in the 1920s and America now. Can you say with complete conviction the American society of now is no worse? Put yourself in the shoes of someone who isn't white, or is female, and ask the same question. There may be aspects of modern American society that are worse, but it's certainly better for a lot of people.
- nopassrecover 17y ago
  I picked 1920s particularly for this reason as rights for women, non-whites AND homosexuals (which appear to still face an uphill battle in the US) had massive gains socially (it takes social acceptance before political acceptance). I will not pretend rights were better but this was an era that precipitated the modern rights advances. The 1930s witnessed a return to Victorian conservatism. Examples: Women's suffrage movement continues to make gains as women obtain full voting rights in the Grand Duchy of Finland in 1906, New Zealand in 1909, Denmark in 1915, in the United States in 1920, and in the United Kingdom in 1918 (women over 30) and in 1928 (full enfranchisement); and women begin to enter the workplace in larger numbers. (wikipedia) While blacks continued to be discriminated against there was increasing representation and labour gains as a result of increased migration to cities. In particular, democrats, socialists and communists all gained increasing black votes and voiced support for black rights ultimately leading to FDR's election (significant black votes) in 1932 and the New Deal which spelled significant rights gains for non-whites. (paraphrased from wikipedia and other "sources"). Until the early 1930s, gay clubs were openly operated, commonly known as "pansy clubs."[citation needed] The relative liberalism of the decade is demonstrated by the fact that the actor William Haines, regularly named in newspapers and magazines as the #1 male box-office draw, openly lived in a gay relationship with his partner, Jimmie Shields.[23] Other popular gay actors/actresses of the decade included Alla Nazimova and Ramon Novarro.[24] In 1927, Mae West wrote a play about homosexuality called, The Drag,.[25][26] and alluded to the work of Karl Heinrich Ulrichs. It was a box-office success. West regarded talking about sex as a basic human rights issue, and was also an early advocate of gay rights. With the return of conservatism in the 1930s, the public grew intolerant of homosexuality, and gay actors were forced to choose between retiring or agreeing to hide their sexuality.[citation needed] (source wikipedia)
  - abstractbill 17y ago
    That's actually some interesting stuff, thanks. I had no idea the 1930s were such a regression from the 1920s in the US for civil rights. However, I still think 2010 is better than either of those for most people.
    - nopassrecover 17y ago
      Yeah definitely is. I guess I should be talking about the first derivative of social rights. I believe this was higher in the 1920s than now.
  - protomyth 17y ago
    Well, since I grew up in "Indian Country" and Native American weren't granted citizenship until 1924, didn't really get full citizenship or suffrage until 1948, had schools that beat the language out of people, got forced moved off the reservations resulting in a huge percentage of suicides, and finally got some laws to protect the remaining culture in the last 30 years; I'm thinking we are better off then 1920. Oh, not to mention the longer lifespans and generally better conditions then 1920 (indoor plumbing being standard is kinda nice).
    - nopassrecover 17y ago
      I guess my point isn't that 1920s were better than now completely, but that the rate of social progress made in the 1920s (including citizenship for Native Americans as you've pointed out) was unparalleled. If that had continued my argument is that by 1940 society would be where it is now, instead of taking 1948 for full Native American rights, the 1960s for an end to segregation or 2003 for homosexuality to be legal. Do you think if the 1920s society could trade with modern society it would take long to exceed our lifespans with their healthier lifestyles and our modern medicine and plumbing as you've pointed out?
      - protomyth 17y ago
        I think your view of 1920 society is limited to what was happening in a few urban centers to a few select minorities or social groups. I have heard stories from my grandma and great grandma's time and the 1920s was no "social revolution" for them. The citizenship from 1924 wasn't very real and more token then anything else. So, I guess to answer your question, no. I believe the 1920s society would have a lot of growing up to do and any back tracking from the economic problems of the 1930s would be intensified by today's economic problems combined with globalism. The 1920s started our isolationism that was only lifted (for the common man) by us being bombed.
Xichekolas 17y ago
I'm not sure I'm understanding your point, but I would definitely argue that society now is better than that of the 1920s. The medical/tech advances alone would make my point, but you seem to want to ignore those, so I'll stick with social aspects. Our populace is more educated, less violent, healthier, and wealthier than we were in the 1920s. Heck, on Wall Street the 1920s was a decade of greed and moral decrepitude (if you get into that sort of name calling) that is possibly only rivalled by the 1980s. Go back 30 years, and you are squarely in the 'Gilded Age', where the Senate was completely controlled by large companies (to the point where the companies simply picked candidates and ushered them through state legislatures, because Senators weren't popularly elected yet). After that came the Progressive years, where we learned that our meat was lethal and other things, and women finally got treated like human beings. How could any of those decades be considered better than the current one? Sure, women's suffrage was a great accomplishment, but only because the reality to that point was so bad. My brother has a saying... "progress, not perfection". American history has been exactly that. Sure, there are temporary setbacks (no one can argue the 1930s were better than the 1920s really), and there are local setbacks (1980s Detroit?) but the overall story is progress. Thankfully the small victories accumulate faster than the setbacks, leaving us with a better society all the time. I guess if we need the jeremiad to motivate us to make progress, then that is fine. I was simply commenting that it's disingenuous to pretend that it's somehow different this time. If it really were different, you wouldn't be sitting around musing about it, you'd be dealing with a collapsing society. But I guess if you realize that, the jeremiad loses it's power, so maybe it's better we keep pretending that things are going to hell.
- nopassrecover 17y ago
  I see your point about progress but I'm not sure I agree that everything has progressed. At the very least it seems as though it has taken us 70 years to revive the booms in social rights and lifestyle that happened in 10 years through the 1920s. I guess I just find it hard to look at kids growing up in LA among regular gang violence, or murders and regular serious violence happening in schools and say that this is progress. Some comparison points: Marriage rates have fallen massively. Divorce rates have risen massively. % Illiteracy (1930: 4.3% / 1%) (1930 had significant gains since prior decade) However, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States raises serious questions about current literacy rates, suggesting illteracy may be 25% or higher, the point being claiming we are more educated on average is questionable. Prisoners / 100k (1929: 98.8 | 2008: 754) Crime Rates: Statistics vary but seem comparable. This was quite a surprise as crime rates today are around double that of 1960 (much higher for particular forms of crime). Mean income (only counts those who filed, inflation adjusted to 2007) (1923: $74,102.15 | 2007: $62,369) Life Expectancy: Much higher now, but general sources suggest this is due to medicine, not better living (factors such as lack of exercise and poor nutrition are considerably higher now).

abstractbill 17y ago

Right, the great thing about predicting the end of the world - or America going to hell, is that you can always say "not yet!" and you're never wrong.