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Related but at a tangent - after a lifetime of interest in karate I came to realise that most of the stuff taught at karate is not practical. Katas and karate

by hoodoof 10y ago

Related but at a tangent - after a lifetime of interest in karate I came to realise that most of the stuff taught at karate is not practical. Katas and karate punches and kicks - most of this better thought of more as dancing or ceremonial. A bit like Tai Chi - except that Tai Chi claims no real world martial value. The myth remains however of karate being great self defence training. Our local karate club is packed with ever more kids going every week to learn pointless moves, with parents thinking the kids are learning to defend themselves.

knowtheory 10y ago
for what it's worth, there are a bunch of combat tai chi practitioners out in the world: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcc0jNJwgJA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcc0jNJwgJA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HQnuWY13ac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HQnuWY13ac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iw4xFD-47Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iw4xFD-47Q
- pluma 10y ago
  It's sad to see so many people think that Tai Chi is just meditative shadow boxing. It's really more about fluid/soft and hard movements, developing an intuition for how your opponent will move and using an attacker's force against them. I've seen people finding it very useful as an influence in HEMA where 9/10th of the difficulty lies in reading your opponent to know when and how they will attack. It's also immensely useful for demonstrating the importance of footwork, as the last video you link to (by the English-speaking Wing Chun instructor -- even if his style isn't "really" Tai Chi) shows very beautifully.
mirimir 10y ago
Aikido is far better in that regard. Edit: I mean that it's more usable in real life.
- blahi 10y ago
  This couldn't be further from the truth. Sorry I'm not pointing to "evidence" but what you are saying is like laser tag guns are far better than AK-47.
  - mirimir 10y ago
    The context here is self defense. Not fighting in bars, gang melees, or whatever. Part of that is avoiding fights by defusing confrontations. Another aspect is defense with controlled escalation. First, you get out of the way. If that's insufficient, you trip them. If that's insufficient, you take them down. If that's insufficient, you incapacitate them. There are many schools of Aikido. I studied in an American dojo that incorporated street-fighting skills. Also substantial work with staff and wooden sword.
Kostchei 10y ago
I've done some form of boxing, grappling /judo or martial art for 30 years. I taught physical skills- use of force, to law enforcement for 6 years. For 5 years I worked in a violent custodial environment. Some young people entering that work-place had never faced an angry man, never been in a real fight. For them that "martial arts" environment is a reasonably safe and accessible place to start. I agree that it is no substitute for actual combat/use of force training but I wished some of them had at least gone to the local Y or a regular basis. The 6 month "entry to service" training was not sufficient, nor was 3 days a year skill updates. Perhaps the biggest issue with "martial arts" is the misunderstanding some people arrive at they can start a fight and win, and not get hurt. That their theoretical skills will enable them to prevail without pain. That is dangerous and un-helpful.
- hoodoof 10y ago
  Boxing, judo, grappling and wrestling all are more practical than karate. The core issue with karate is that it is loaded with formal or ritualistic representations of fighting. Karate kicks, punches and blocks are all hopelessly unusable when fighting a boxer for example, who is trained to defend their head and hit their opponents head hard and fast. By contrast, few, if any, karate stances are explicitly defending the head from being hit. The more extreme examples include holding the fist at the hip - a truly useless place for a fist to be during a fight.
  - ComodoHacker 10y ago
    If only the boxer can get at the distance of his hands without having something broken or crippled. Primary head defense in most karate stances is distance.
    - pmoriarty 10y ago
      You should watch Royce Gracie in early MMA competitions (before grappling became regularly studied by most competitors). He completely dominated everyone, no matter what discipline. Distance did not help. At best, a punch or kick or two were thrown, and then the grappler was able to close the distance, and then anyone who didn't study grappling (or at least wrestling) was at a massive disadvantage, and the fight quickly ended in the grappler's favor.
velodrome 10y ago
I think Judo and Aikido are more practical. They focus more on grappling and emphasize the redirection of the opponent's force. Most people are better off learning combat systems aimed towards personal defense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga
- hoodoof 10y ago
  Krav Maga - much more practical than karate.
- mercurial 10y ago
  Aikido doesn't have a reputation as "something you'd use on the street". Krav Maga may be good if you get a real teacher and not some guy who's seen videos on youtube.
- peatmoss 10y ago
  Judo maybe, aikido no. As an aikidoka myself, I train it because it's a good workout with good people, and it's incredibly subtle and difficult to make work even in a controlled training environment. Pretty much the opposite of what someone genuinely concerned with self defense would want. For self defense (which I am not interested in), something brutal and simple will be better. In fact, the brutal-er and simpler the better. Learn how to get hurt badly and still keep going for defense. Practice groin and throat strikes for offense. Judo is much simpler than aikido, but not hugely brutal. Still, if I were suddenly required to try and defend myself with some aspect of my martial arts training (unlikely), I'd be much more likely to call on my judo than my aikido. Focus on practicality in martial arts is kind of boring, and is largely irrelevant for most people unless we're talking about boosting confidence. And then, best not let your confidence convince you that violence isn't likely to hurt or kill you.
maxthegeek1 10y ago
kyokushin is pretty practical. no katas they just beat the shit of each other.
Tharkun 10y ago
What you see as pointless is in fact good conditioning of the mind and body, something that reduces anxiety in the parents and boosts confidence in the kids. Anyone who learns a martial art with the intention of getting into fights, well, is an idiot. You need to take a long view of the martial arts, instead of a short one. Two years of practice won't teach you jack shit. A lifetime of it can be very fulfulling. Many people have difficulty seeing the benefits in kata training, but it really is one of the best ways to learn to apply techniques correctly. As for practicality, what does that even mean? Do you frequently need to punch people in the teeth?
ry_ry 10y ago
Shotokan? I studied it for a few years as a kid, and came to a similar conclusion but had assumed it was that particular flavour of karate being an overly formalised, functionally ceremonious, branch emphasising discipline, flexibility and strength over fighting prowess. A foundation, rather than an end-product if you will.
blahi 10y ago
This is not true at all. Your life-long interest in karate apparently includes 0 practical knowledge. I doubt you have even watched a youtube video from a karate tournament. The modus operandi in karate is "Immoblize your enemy as fast as possible". Immobilize in this context means kill or knock out and ASAP means instantly. There is nothing more vicious out there than Kyokushin.
- dfox 10y ago
  It is my understanding that there are two ways of how karate is taught, as a sport and as a practical martial art, with majority of clubs being the former case.
frankzinger 10y ago
Possible counter-examples to this are Stephen "Wonderboy" Thompson [0] and Lyoto Machida [1]. There are probably more, but these are examples of two very successful MMA fighters whose backgrounds are based on Karate and whose MMA fighting styles are apparently very Karate-like so it can't be completely useless. (Disclaimer: I am a complete layman.) Also, for those advocating Aikido: how many Aikido guys excel in MMA? (Only a slightly rhetorical question--I could very well be wrong.) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Thompson_(fighter) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Thompson_(fighter) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyoto_Machida https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyoto_Machida
- e12e 10y ago
  MMA isn't fighting, it's a sport. The one interesting thing to come out of it from a martial arts perspective, was Gracie challenging the idea that grappling wasn't an effective strategy even against people with a lot of striking experience. But it has rules, it's one-on-one, no weapons ... it has very little to do with real-world fighting. That said, someone that's been boxing for a few years is more likely to win against someone who has no form of fight training. But he might not win against someone who's been in regular fights the past few years. People that actually fight, do so to win. That usually means two, three on one, bringing a weapon against someone that's unarmed etc. Being able to choke someone out doesn't help all that much if his buddy is going to knife you in the neck while you're doing it. As for Aikido, I love Aikdo. And if trained for self-defence, it could probably work well enough - but that requires training in an environment where you have people around you to that know how to use the attacks your trying to defend against. I've rarely seen an Aikido dojo with people that are good at kicking, kneeing, punching and elbowing people. It's not even that often you'll see people with a decade of real judo practice under their belt. Without a few decades worth of such experience, it becomes impossible to truly practice Aikido techniques with an aim for self defence. If nothing else, there's a strong tradition for practising defence against multiple attackers in Aikido. On the other hand, in terms of being fit, clear of mind, of freeing oneself from the idea that one has something prove, letting go of ones pride -- those are things that can certainly get one out of fights. And situational awareness and not being a moron is probably 99% of the key to successful self defence. After all, if you know you're headed to a fight, you'd be better off going the other way, or pre-emptively calling the police, or getting some help - so that the fight can be avoided. As for Karate - it can certainly be a good foundation for self defence. But there are numerous styles, and numerous ways of approaching Karate. If your focus in competition sports, it's unlikely you'll end up great at self defence.
aedron 10y ago
I like watching MMA because it pits all the various styles against eachother with a minimum set of rules. This way, it becomes very apparent which styles work and which don't. Predictably, more practical and direct styles like boxing and grappling form the bread and butter for most participants and make up the majority of fights. But interestingly, very high-level practitioners of traditional styles, such as karate and taekwondo, are actually extremely effective, and among some of the best fighters in the sport. I suspect a lot of the fake and impractical looking techniques in e.g. karate are actually useful, but only when practicing at a very high level. I also suspect that this may be by design - to weed out thugs and impatient pupils from the ranks before teaching actually useful martial technique.
- speeder 10y ago
  I used to train kung long fist. I was training a kati (kata in Chinese) that was very flowery (literally, the name of the routine had the word "flower" in it). It felt useless and so I asked the teacher what some weirder moves were used for... First thing he was pleased I asked, most students doesn't. Then he showed me... it was just brutal, several moves were bone breaking grappling moves designed to be used as counter attacks. I suspect most practitioners don't know this because people don't want to learn this grossly violent stuff, and so teachers don't make and effort to teach what exactly they are learning, and several of the moves were risky and opportunistic, not the thing a newbie can pull off in actual combat.
wallace_f 10y ago
Yea, a lot of it is more comparable to doing dancing, gymnastics or exercise for fun, but I wouldn't call it 100% pointless. There's good evidence that there is usefulness in karate for self defense. Lyoto Machida is an MMA fighter who at one point was #1 in the world in his weight class, and he uses a lot from karate (he has a lot of karate heritage as well as training). He won a fight a fight via crane kick, which is a technique from vs a former #1 LHW and HW fighter, I found it on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVSGQ_FRs3k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVSGQ_FRs3k For self defense it's also probably useful to do routine exercise, stretches, etc., so in that sense it's also probably helpful. Boxing, wrestling, and submission-style training such as jiu jitsu are the most effective hand to hand combat techniques, but even then it's still not entirely practical. Humans are evolved to fight with weapons, so it's all kind of pointless anyways. I once saw a little girl quickly dispatch a scary-looking guy with pepper spray. I don't do any martial arts stuff, but I those going to the MMA gym that talk shit to those that do karate is just the pot calling the kettle black, aside from being immature.

by hoodoof 10y ago

knowtheory 10y ago

for what it's worth, there are a bunch of combat tai chi practitioners out in the world: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcc0jNJwgJA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcc0jNJwgJA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HQnuWY13ac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HQnuWY13ac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iw4xFD-47Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iw4xFD-47Q

pluma 10y ago
It's sad to see so many people think that Tai Chi is just meditative shadow boxing. It's really more about fluid/soft and hard movements, developing an intuition for how your opponent will move and using an attacker's force against them. I've seen people finding it very useful as an influence in HEMA where 9/10th of the difficulty lies in reading your opponent to know when and how they will attack. It's also immensely useful for demonstrating the importance of footwork, as the last video you link to (by the English-speaking Wing Chun instructor -- even if his style isn't "really" Tai Chi) shows very beautifully.

mirimir 10y ago

Aikido is far better in that regard. Edit: I mean that it's more usable in real life.

blahi 10y ago
This couldn't be further from the truth. Sorry I'm not pointing to "evidence" but what you are saying is like laser tag guns are far better than AK-47.
- mirimir 10y ago
  The context here is self defense. Not fighting in bars, gang melees, or whatever. Part of that is avoiding fights by defusing confrontations. Another aspect is defense with controlled escalation. First, you get out of the way. If that's insufficient, you trip them. If that's insufficient, you take them down. If that's insufficient, you incapacitate them. There are many schools of Aikido. I studied in an American dojo that incorporated street-fighting skills. Also substantial work with staff and wooden sword.

Kostchei 10y ago

I've done some form of boxing, grappling /judo or martial art for 30 years. I taught physical skills- use of force, to law enforcement for 6 years. For 5 years I worked in a violent custodial environment. Some young people entering that work-place had never faced an angry man, never been in a real fight. For them that "martial arts" environment is a reasonably safe and accessible place to start. I agree that it is no substitute for actual combat/use of force training but I wished some of them had at least gone to the local Y or a regular basis. The 6 month "entry to service" training was not sufficient, nor was 3 days a year skill updates. Perhaps the biggest issue with "martial arts" is the misunderstanding some people arrive at they can start a fight and win, and not get hurt. That their theoretical skills will enable them to prevail without pain. That is dangerous and un-helpful.

hoodoof 10y ago
Boxing, judo, grappling and wrestling all are more practical than karate. The core issue with karate is that it is loaded with formal or ritualistic representations of fighting. Karate kicks, punches and blocks are all hopelessly unusable when fighting a boxer for example, who is trained to defend their head and hit their opponents head hard and fast. By contrast, few, if any, karate stances are explicitly defending the head from being hit. The more extreme examples include holding the fist at the hip - a truly useless place for a fist to be during a fight.
- ComodoHacker 10y ago
  If only the boxer can get at the distance of his hands without having something broken or crippled. Primary head defense in most karate stances is distance.
  - pmoriarty 10y ago
    You should watch Royce Gracie in early MMA competitions (before grappling became regularly studied by most competitors). He completely dominated everyone, no matter what discipline. Distance did not help. At best, a punch or kick or two were thrown, and then the grappler was able to close the distance, and then anyone who didn't study grappling (or at least wrestling) was at a massive disadvantage, and the fight quickly ended in the grappler's favor.

velodrome 10y ago

I think Judo and Aikido are more practical. They focus more on grappling and emphasize the redirection of the opponent's force. Most people are better off learning combat systems aimed towards personal defense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

hoodoof 10y ago
Krav Maga - much more practical than karate.
mercurial 10y ago
Aikido doesn't have a reputation as "something you'd use on the street". Krav Maga may be good if you get a real teacher and not some guy who's seen videos on youtube.
peatmoss 10y ago
Judo maybe, aikido no. As an aikidoka myself, I train it because it's a good workout with good people, and it's incredibly subtle and difficult to make work even in a controlled training environment. Pretty much the opposite of what someone genuinely concerned with self defense would want. For self defense (which I am not interested in), something brutal and simple will be better. In fact, the brutal-er and simpler the better. Learn how to get hurt badly and still keep going for defense. Practice groin and throat strikes for offense. Judo is much simpler than aikido, but not hugely brutal. Still, if I were suddenly required to try and defend myself with some aspect of my martial arts training (unlikely), I'd be much more likely to call on my judo than my aikido. Focus on practicality in martial arts is kind of boring, and is largely irrelevant for most people unless we're talking about boosting confidence. And then, best not let your confidence convince you that violence isn't likely to hurt or kill you.

maxthegeek1 10y ago

kyokushin is pretty practical. no katas they just beat the shit of each other.

Tharkun 10y ago

What you see as pointless is in fact good conditioning of the mind and body, something that reduces anxiety in the parents and boosts confidence in the kids. Anyone who learns a martial art with the intention of getting into fights, well, is an idiot. You need to take a long view of the martial arts, instead of a short one. Two years of practice won't teach you jack shit. A lifetime of it can be very fulfulling. Many people have difficulty seeing the benefits in kata training, but it really is one of the best ways to learn to apply techniques correctly. As for practicality, what does that even mean? Do you frequently need to punch people in the teeth?

ry_ry 10y ago

Shotokan? I studied it for a few years as a kid, and came to a similar conclusion but had assumed it was that particular flavour of karate being an overly formalised, functionally ceremonious, branch emphasising discipline, flexibility and strength over fighting prowess. A foundation, rather than an end-product if you will.

blahi 10y ago

This is not true at all. Your life-long interest in karate apparently includes 0 practical knowledge. I doubt you have even watched a youtube video from a karate tournament. The modus operandi in karate is "Immoblize your enemy as fast as possible". Immobilize in this context means kill or knock out and ASAP means instantly. There is nothing more vicious out there than Kyokushin.

dfox 10y ago
It is my understanding that there are two ways of how karate is taught, as a sport and as a practical martial art, with majority of clubs being the former case.

frankzinger 10y ago

Possible counter-examples to this are Stephen "Wonderboy" Thompson [0] and Lyoto Machida [1]. There are probably more, but these are examples of two very successful MMA fighters whose backgrounds are based on Karate and whose MMA fighting styles are apparently very Karate-like so it can't be completely useless. (Disclaimer: I am a complete layman.) Also, for those advocating Aikido: how many Aikido guys excel in MMA? (Only a slightly rhetorical question--I could very well be wrong.) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Thompson_(fighter) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Thompson_(fighter) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyoto_Machida https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyoto_Machida

e12e 10y ago
MMA isn't fighting, it's a sport. The one interesting thing to come out of it from a martial arts perspective, was Gracie challenging the idea that grappling wasn't an effective strategy even against people with a lot of striking experience. But it has rules, it's one-on-one, no weapons ... it has very little to do with real-world fighting. That said, someone that's been boxing for a few years is more likely to win against someone who has no form of fight training. But he might not win against someone who's been in regular fights the past few years. People that actually fight, do so to win. That usually means two, three on one, bringing a weapon against someone that's unarmed etc. Being able to choke someone out doesn't help all that much if his buddy is going to knife you in the neck while you're doing it. As for Aikido, I love Aikdo. And if trained for self-defence, it could probably work well enough - but that requires training in an environment where you have people around you to that know how to use the attacks your trying to defend against. I've rarely seen an Aikido dojo with people that are good at kicking, kneeing, punching and elbowing people. It's not even that often you'll see people with a decade of real judo practice under their belt. Without a few decades worth of such experience, it becomes impossible to truly practice Aikido techniques with an aim for self defence. If nothing else, there's a strong tradition for practising defence against multiple attackers in Aikido. On the other hand, in terms of being fit, clear of mind, of freeing oneself from the idea that one has something prove, letting go of ones pride -- those are things that can certainly get one out of fights. And situational awareness and not being a moron is probably 99% of the key to successful self defence. After all, if you know you're headed to a fight, you'd be better off going the other way, or pre-emptively calling the police, or getting some help - so that the fight can be avoided. As for Karate - it can certainly be a good foundation for self defence. But there are numerous styles, and numerous ways of approaching Karate. If your focus in competition sports, it's unlikely you'll end up great at self defence.

aedron 10y ago

I like watching MMA because it pits all the various styles against eachother with a minimum set of rules. This way, it becomes very apparent which styles work and which don't. Predictably, more practical and direct styles like boxing and grappling form the bread and butter for most participants and make up the majority of fights. But interestingly, very high-level practitioners of traditional styles, such as karate and taekwondo, are actually extremely effective, and among some of the best fighters in the sport. I suspect a lot of the fake and impractical looking techniques in e.g. karate are actually useful, but only when practicing at a very high level. I also suspect that this may be by design - to weed out thugs and impatient pupils from the ranks before teaching actually useful martial technique.

speeder 10y ago
I used to train kung long fist. I was training a kati (kata in Chinese) that was very flowery (literally, the name of the routine had the word "flower" in it). It felt useless and so I asked the teacher what some weirder moves were used for... First thing he was pleased I asked, most students doesn't. Then he showed me... it was just brutal, several moves were bone breaking grappling moves designed to be used as counter attacks. I suspect most practitioners don't know this because people don't want to learn this grossly violent stuff, and so teachers don't make and effort to teach what exactly they are learning, and several of the moves were risky and opportunistic, not the thing a newbie can pull off in actual combat.

wallace_f 10y ago

Yea, a lot of it is more comparable to doing dancing, gymnastics or exercise for fun, but I wouldn't call it 100% pointless. There's good evidence that there is usefulness in karate for self defense. Lyoto Machida is an MMA fighter who at one point was #1 in the world in his weight class, and he uses a lot from karate (he has a lot of karate heritage as well as training). He won a fight a fight via crane kick, which is a technique from vs a former #1 LHW and HW fighter, I found it on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVSGQ_FRs3k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVSGQ_FRs3k For self defense it's also probably useful to do routine exercise, stretches, etc., so in that sense it's also probably helpful. Boxing, wrestling, and submission-style training such as jiu jitsu are the most effective hand to hand combat techniques, but even then it's still not entirely practical. Humans are evolved to fight with weapons, so it's all kind of pointless anyways. I once saw a little girl quickly dispatch a scary-looking guy with pepper spray. I don't do any martial arts stuff, but I those going to the MMA gym that talk shit to those that do karate is just the pot calling the kettle black, aside from being immature.