36 ms·

> Indian (dots) stores Huh?

by wutbrodo 10y ago

sitharus 10y ago
I think GP means Indians from India instead of American Indians but is using a racial stereotype to describe this.
- x1798DE 10y ago
  I understand that the dot/feather thing is considered crass, but I will say it's a bit overboard to be offended at it. The idea isn't that all India Indians have dots or whatever, it's just synechdoche, where one aspect of the broader culture stands in for the whole. Like if you said, "He's from America - suit not cowboy boots." (Referring to urban vs rural America) it would hardly be offensive as a stereotype.
  - cavisne 10y ago
    Or just as easily America (perpetually offended) to tell the same thing
  - e12e 10y ago
    You'd be amazed how much a genocide or brutal occupation adds to the (legitimate) offence of a stereotype.
  - dalke 10y ago
    "Yankee" or simply "Yank" is a synechdoche that the British use for people from the US. Tell a 6th generation Georgian whose family farm was destroyed by Sherman's March to the Sea that he's a "Yankee" and see what response you'll get. And your 'suit not cowboy boots' comparison doesn't even make sense. In the parts of the US where cowboy boots are popular in rural areas, they are also popular in urban areas. Visit Dallas and see that dress cowboy boots go just fine with a suit. Governors and legislators, President Bush and innumerable wedding party members, have all paired cowboy boots and suits.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      I also want to point out: Lets start with nobody said they were offended, just pointed out the GP was using a racial stereotype. Calling a racial stereotype a racial stereotype when asked for clarification isn't the same as "I'm offended," that is jumping to unfounded conclusions. Saying "Indian (dots)" doesn't make sense out of context unless you are American or very familiar with American stereotypes. You also need the "feathers" part to be able to compare the two to give it some context for those who are familiar with American stereotypes but haven't been asked "dots or feathers?" before. Saying it in an international form is confusing and unclear thus a bad use of language no matter if its offensive or not. Additionally using racially charged language unnecessarily detracts from the overall message the poster was trying to convey and their post is now hidden behind [flagged]. >Visit Dallas and see that dress cowboy boots go just fine with a suit. I just went to a wedding a few weeks ago where the entire wedding party (including the bride) were formally dressed and wore cowboy boots and I don't even live in the south or a rural area!
    - x1798DE 10y ago
      > And your 'suit not cowboy boots' comparison doesn't even make sense. In the parts of the US where cowboy boots are popular in rural areas, they are also popular in urban areas. Visit Dallas and see that dress cowboy boots go just fine with a suit. Governors and legislators, President Bush and innumerable wedding party members, have all paired cowboy boots and suits. Sounds like it makes perfect sense to me, given that my whole point was that synechdoche is about using a salient feature, not necessarily a universal one. That's what I was trying to say about the dots/feathers thing - cowboy boots are associated with (mostly southern) rural areas - they're even called cowboy boots, even if they are used other places and even if most people in the south or in rural areas don't wear them most of the time. Suits are associated with big metropolitan companies, even though people in rural areas still wear suits.
      - dalke 10y ago
        > cowboy boots are associated with (mostly southern) rural areas Your expression seems to become less meaningful as you clarify it. Cowboy boots are part of Western wear. The specific style (as differing from general equestrian boots) started during the cattle drive era of Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas in the late 1800s. It spread, certainly. Cowboy boots are a much more salient aspect of Montana, New Mexico, and Wyoming - decidedly non-Southern states - than Virginia, Florida, or North Carolina. What cotton farmer, tobacco farmer, or citrus grower works in cowboy boots? The traditional Florida cowboy wasn't even called a "cowboy", which is the western term, but a cowman or cracker. I'll say this again, they are indeed called cowboy boots, which means they come from the area where there are cowboys. That's the West, not the South. (The two areas overlap in Texas and Oklahoma.) So 1) are cowboy boots a salient feature of rural life in the US? No. They are not common to rural life in Michigan, New York, Maine, and other non-plains states. 2) are cowboy boots a salient feature of the rural south? Based on http://www.newsobserver.com/living/fashion/article10118804.html http://www.newsobserver.com/living/fashion/article10118804.h... , at least in North Carolina it is the suburban population which buys the most cowboy boots, not the rural population. 3) Is the south the area where cowboy boots are the most salient feature? No. That would be the West. In the South you buy cowboy boots at places which sell Western wear. You don't buy cowboy boots at a places which sells "Southern clothing." On the other hand, in the West, where cowboy boots are a salient feature, you are also likely to find people in the cities wearing dress cowboy boots with a suit. So "cowboy boots" means someone from the West, and "suit" means someone dressed formally, "suit and cowboy boots" means someone dressed formally in the Western clothing tradition. While "suit not cowboy boots" tells someone in the Western US to dress in the standard US/European business tradition. But "cowboy boots not suit" makes little sense as a disjunctive. It certainly doesn't characterize someone from the rural US, or characterize someone from the rural South in the US, with someone from the city.
nommm-nommm 10y ago
It's a very impolite but common way that Americans differentiate the two groups of people that are called Indians when the context isn't clear. Native Americans (feathers) and people from India (dots). Feathers refers to Native headdress and dot refers to a bindi, the decoration commonly worn by Hindu women.
- wutbrodo 10y ago
  Oh, hadn't ever heard that. Thanks for the background.
- sampo 10y ago
  Is Indian (IT) and Indian (casino) equally impolite?
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    Yes.
- panglott 10y ago
  Common? I've never heard this.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    Pretty common, I've heard it from several casually racist people several different times throughout my life. Perhaps it is regional. Casual racism (especially outside of talking to friends/family) isn't super common anymore but still a "thing."
    - wutbrodo 10y ago
      Do you mind if I ask what region? I only ask because I had never heard it spending my entire life in a couple different parts of California
      - 10y ago
tn13 10y ago
Clarification: Americans confuse Indians between those from Bharat/India and Native Americans. Dots and feathers is a common way to differentiate between both. I am from India.
- RP_Joe 10y ago
  Are you offended by (dots)?
- dalke 10y ago
  I am from the US. "Dots and feathers" is not a common way in the US. It feels pejorative as well. If it's ambiguous, I say "Indian (from India)" or "Indian (subcontinent)" vs. "Indian (Native American)". Or I'll just say "from India" or "Native American", and avoid that ambiguity. That said, even "Native American" is controversial. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controver... for full details. Plus, I think many in the US don't know about the bindi, so referring to "dot" in that context may not help as much as you, someone from India, may think. As to why it feels pejorative, here's are pictures of Native American vendors in Santa Fe. https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/el_camino_real_de_tierra_adentro/palace_of_the_governors.html https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/el_camino_real_de_tierra_adent... . One is recent, another from almost 100 years ago. Here's are some more: http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/native-american-vendors-program-of-the-palace-of-the-governors-santa-fe?select=oJ9Yt26Bqm1MiQn1YmB4Uw http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/native-american-vendors-progr... http://adorepics.com/santa-fe-indian-market/ http://adorepics.com/santa-fe-indian-market/ . Do you see feathers? Other than decades-old stereotypes from mass media, why do you think "feather" is the appropriate term?
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    >I am from the US. "Dots and feathers" is not a common way in the US. I am from the US, I have heard people say things like "I picked up some Indian artwork this weekend, dots not feathers." I've also been asked "dots or feathers?" when I was talking about something Indian. I've also been asked in gestures, pointing to the forehead to represent a bindi then saying "or" and covering and uncovering the mouth while making a noise to do that mock Indian battle cry (see the scene in Peter Pan if you are unfamiliar with it)(1). Its not super common (for obvious reasons) but I've heard to several times from several different people so its common enough in at least some parts of the United States. Being casually racist in informal conversation is still a "thing" in the United States. That being said, its impolite racially charged language thus very inappropriate in most cases and should be avoided especially in formal communication. (1) I am ashamed to admit that I did that while playing "cowboys and Indians" as a child before I knew better.
rlucas 10y ago
I'd like to chime in for future readers of this thread, a passive observation. In 2016 Seattle tech, I hear the "dots not feathers" formulation (or rarely the reverse), at least monthly, always in professional settings and nearly always used by a person in describing him or herself. Subjectively it would ring very odd and impolite to hear it from someone not describing his own ethnicity.

> Indian (dots) stores Huh?

sitharus 10y ago

I think GP means Indians from India instead of American Indians but is using a racial stereotype to describe this.

x1798DE 10y ago
I understand that the dot/feather thing is considered crass, but I will say it's a bit overboard to be offended at it. The idea isn't that all India Indians have dots or whatever, it's just synechdoche, where one aspect of the broader culture stands in for the whole. Like if you said, "He's from America - suit not cowboy boots." (Referring to urban vs rural America) it would hardly be offensive as a stereotype.
- cavisne 10y ago
  Or just as easily America (perpetually offended) to tell the same thing
- e12e 10y ago
  You'd be amazed how much a genocide or brutal occupation adds to the (legitimate) offence of a stereotype.
- dalke 10y ago
  "Yankee" or simply "Yank" is a synechdoche that the British use for people from the US. Tell a 6th generation Georgian whose family farm was destroyed by Sherman's March to the Sea that he's a "Yankee" and see what response you'll get. And your 'suit not cowboy boots' comparison doesn't even make sense. In the parts of the US where cowboy boots are popular in rural areas, they are also popular in urban areas. Visit Dallas and see that dress cowboy boots go just fine with a suit. Governors and legislators, President Bush and innumerable wedding party members, have all paired cowboy boots and suits.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    I also want to point out: Lets start with nobody said they were offended, just pointed out the GP was using a racial stereotype. Calling a racial stereotype a racial stereotype when asked for clarification isn't the same as "I'm offended," that is jumping to unfounded conclusions. Saying "Indian (dots)" doesn't make sense out of context unless you are American or very familiar with American stereotypes. You also need the "feathers" part to be able to compare the two to give it some context for those who are familiar with American stereotypes but haven't been asked "dots or feathers?" before. Saying it in an international form is confusing and unclear thus a bad use of language no matter if its offensive or not. Additionally using racially charged language unnecessarily detracts from the overall message the poster was trying to convey and their post is now hidden behind [flagged]. >Visit Dallas and see that dress cowboy boots go just fine with a suit. I just went to a wedding a few weeks ago where the entire wedding party (including the bride) were formally dressed and wore cowboy boots and I don't even live in the south or a rural area!
  - x1798DE 10y ago
    > And your 'suit not cowboy boots' comparison doesn't even make sense. In the parts of the US where cowboy boots are popular in rural areas, they are also popular in urban areas. Visit Dallas and see that dress cowboy boots go just fine with a suit. Governors and legislators, President Bush and innumerable wedding party members, have all paired cowboy boots and suits. Sounds like it makes perfect sense to me, given that my whole point was that synechdoche is about using a salient feature, not necessarily a universal one. That's what I was trying to say about the dots/feathers thing - cowboy boots are associated with (mostly southern) rural areas - they're even called cowboy boots, even if they are used other places and even if most people in the south or in rural areas don't wear them most of the time. Suits are associated with big metropolitan companies, even though people in rural areas still wear suits.
    - dalke 10y ago
      > cowboy boots are associated with (mostly southern) rural areas Your expression seems to become less meaningful as you clarify it. Cowboy boots are part of Western wear. The specific style (as differing from general equestrian boots) started during the cattle drive era of Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas in the late 1800s. It spread, certainly. Cowboy boots are a much more salient aspect of Montana, New Mexico, and Wyoming - decidedly non-Southern states - than Virginia, Florida, or North Carolina. What cotton farmer, tobacco farmer, or citrus grower works in cowboy boots? The traditional Florida cowboy wasn't even called a "cowboy", which is the western term, but a cowman or cracker. I'll say this again, they are indeed called cowboy boots, which means they come from the area where there are cowboys. That's the West, not the South. (The two areas overlap in Texas and Oklahoma.) So 1) are cowboy boots a salient feature of rural life in the US? No. They are not common to rural life in Michigan, New York, Maine, and other non-plains states. 2) are cowboy boots a salient feature of the rural south? Based on http://www.newsobserver.com/living/fashion/article10118804.html http://www.newsobserver.com/living/fashion/article10118804.h... , at least in North Carolina it is the suburban population which buys the most cowboy boots, not the rural population. 3) Is the south the area where cowboy boots are the most salient feature? No. That would be the West. In the South you buy cowboy boots at places which sell Western wear. You don't buy cowboy boots at a places which sells "Southern clothing." On the other hand, in the West, where cowboy boots are a salient feature, you are also likely to find people in the cities wearing dress cowboy boots with a suit. So "cowboy boots" means someone from the West, and "suit" means someone dressed formally, "suit and cowboy boots" means someone dressed formally in the Western clothing tradition. While "suit not cowboy boots" tells someone in the Western US to dress in the standard US/European business tradition. But "cowboy boots not suit" makes little sense as a disjunctive. It certainly doesn't characterize someone from the rural US, or characterize someone from the rural South in the US, with someone from the city.

nommm-nommm 10y ago

It's a very impolite but common way that Americans differentiate the two groups of people that are called Indians when the context isn't clear. Native Americans (feathers) and people from India (dots). Feathers refers to Native headdress and dot refers to a bindi, the decoration commonly worn by Hindu women.

wutbrodo 10y ago
Oh, hadn't ever heard that. Thanks for the background.
sampo 10y ago
Is Indian (IT) and Indian (casino) equally impolite?
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  Yes.
panglott 10y ago
Common? I've never heard this.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  Pretty common, I've heard it from several casually racist people several different times throughout my life. Perhaps it is regional. Casual racism (especially outside of talking to friends/family) isn't super common anymore but still a "thing."
  - wutbrodo 10y ago
    Do you mind if I ask what region? I only ask because I had never heard it spending my entire life in a couple different parts of California
    - 10y ago

tn13 10y ago

Clarification: Americans confuse Indians between those from Bharat/India and Native Americans. Dots and feathers is a common way to differentiate between both. I am from India.

RP_Joe 10y ago
Are you offended by (dots)?
dalke 10y ago
I am from the US. "Dots and feathers" is not a common way in the US. It feels pejorative as well. If it's ambiguous, I say "Indian (from India)" or "Indian (subcontinent)" vs. "Indian (Native American)". Or I'll just say "from India" or "Native American", and avoid that ambiguity. That said, even "Native American" is controversial. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controver... for full details. Plus, I think many in the US don't know about the bindi, so referring to "dot" in that context may not help as much as you, someone from India, may think. As to why it feels pejorative, here's are pictures of Native American vendors in Santa Fe. https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/el_camino_real_de_tierra_adentro/palace_of_the_governors.html https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/el_camino_real_de_tierra_adent... . One is recent, another from almost 100 years ago. Here's are some more: http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/native-american-vendors-program-of-the-palace-of-the-governors-santa-fe?select=oJ9Yt26Bqm1MiQn1YmB4Uw http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/native-american-vendors-progr... http://adorepics.com/santa-fe-indian-market/ http://adorepics.com/santa-fe-indian-market/ . Do you see feathers? Other than decades-old stereotypes from mass media, why do you think "feather" is the appropriate term?
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  >I am from the US. "Dots and feathers" is not a common way in the US. I am from the US, I have heard people say things like "I picked up some Indian artwork this weekend, dots not feathers." I've also been asked "dots or feathers?" when I was talking about something Indian. I've also been asked in gestures, pointing to the forehead to represent a bindi then saying "or" and covering and uncovering the mouth while making a noise to do that mock Indian battle cry (see the scene in Peter Pan if you are unfamiliar with it)(1). Its not super common (for obvious reasons) but I've heard to several times from several different people so its common enough in at least some parts of the United States. Being casually racist in informal conversation is still a "thing" in the United States. That being said, its impolite racially charged language thus very inappropriate in most cases and should be avoided especially in formal communication. (1) I am ashamed to admit that I did that while playing "cowboys and Indians" as a child before I knew better.

rlucas 10y ago

I'd like to chime in for future readers of this thread, a passive observation. In 2016 Seattle tech, I hear the "dots not feathers" formulation (or rarely the reverse), at least monthly, always in professional settings and nearly always used by a person in describing him or herself. Subjectively it would ring very odd and impolite to hear it from someone not describing his own ethnicity.