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I engage Jehovah's Witnesses, but not in the dick way that capital A Atheists might (I'm a small a atheist). I try to learn what they're about. They're generall

by a3n 10y ago

I engage Jehovah's Witnesses, but not in the dick way that capital A Atheists might (I'm a small a atheist). I try to learn what they're about. They're generally nice people.

cbd1984 10y ago
Atheists are atheists. If you're going to make a distinction, make it between individuals, not groups.
- Zancarius 10y ago
  Perhaps I'm being unnecessarily charitable in my interpretation of what a3n said, but I gathered from the differentiation between "capital A" atheists and lowercase a atheists as a subtle distinction between individuals who evangelize their beliefs and those who don't.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    I think it is the party coming to your door that does the evangelizing and I've yet to have an atheist ring my doorbell.
    - nostrebored 10y ago
      Right, but to pretend that it doesn't happen in common conversation is absurd. Atheists frequently evangelize. It is a religious belief.
      - type0 10y ago
        > Atheists frequently evangelize. It is a religious belief. They evangelize, but its more of ideology that concerns religion rather than just a belief. The main problem with atheism is the definition: absence of religion, this is such a derogatory word as if believing in deities should be the norm. Agnostic is even worse seat: declaring that you have no clue but probably are somewhat spiritual. If you don't like religion say proudly that you are antitheist!
        malka 10y ago
        > as if believing in deities should be the norm Well, de facto, it IS the norm. And it has been so for a long time
      - cbd1984 10y ago
        > Atheists frequently evangelize. It is a religious belief. It isn't, and it's insulting to say so: You're imposing a category on people based on deliberately misunderstanding their worldview. Atheists say their lack of belief isn't a belief, and saying otherwise is insulting.
      - Cogito 10y ago
        Calling atheism a religious belief is as disingenuous as describing science as a religion. It is possible to be religious in your science-based beliefs, but that does not make science itself a religion. If someone believes something only because "scientists" said so then they share many of the qualities of religions. I would shy away from calling even this a religion, however, as these people are willing to change their belief if the scientific consensus changes. Furthermore, merely evangelising is not enough to make something a religious belief and it would be an abuse of the language to conflate them in that way. It is completely reasonable to evangelise scientific ideas, and it would be wrong to label that act as a religious one. Atheism is not science, but it shares a common tenet; both atheists and scientists are willing to change their belief if shown appropriate evidence. Atheists can evangelise for many reasons, but those reasons need not be religious. For example, atheists may believe that religious teachings promote the worst aspects of tribalism and actively harm our society. An atheist can evangelise that the argument "My god is better than your god" is a pointless source of discontent in the world, and want to remove the source of that discontent, without being religious. Of course, there will be people who shout "you're wrong because SCIENCE!!" but the religious nature of those people doesn't magically transfer to the beliefs they hold simply because they hold them.
  - a3n 10y ago
    Yeah, pretty much. I get real embarrassed when Atheists make fun of people for santa clause in the sky and such. Let people believe what they want, it's a hard universe.
    - Zancarius 10y ago
      I wish more people shared your outlook. Judging by some of the other comments here, in addition to the reply you received, I think we could all learn something from you!
uxp 10y ago
The house I bought last year came with a cheesy "No Solicitation" sign stuck to the screen door near the handle. I've wanted to remove it, but laziness and the fact that it has some utility has kept it in place. Oddly, Jehovah's Witnesses have been the only people to ignore it. I've watched Mormons walk up and turn away, though.
newjersey 10y ago
Yes. I have so much appreciation for their contributions to civil liberties. Yes, we should have a right to not say the pledge of allegiance. No, I won't exercise that right but it is seriously stupid to say we have a "right" to do something if we don't have a right to not do it. If we have to get up and pray, we do not have freedom to pray. People who refuse to stand up to pray at the beginning of a rodeo are people we have to be grateful for.
wglb 10y ago
Maybe consider checking this out: https://www.amazon.com/Years-Watchtower-Slave-Confessions-Converted/dp/0801063841 https://www.amazon.com/Years-Watchtower-Slave-Confessions-Co...
- a3n 10y ago
  And this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Fifths_Compromise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Fifths_Compromise
  - wglb 10y ago
    Uh, I am not sure how the two are related.
anonbanker 10y ago
Or, invite them in, and (politely) try to pitch a conversion to atheism. I usually get sooo close, then you see that programming snap back into place (you'll see their expression change to one of terror), and they suddenly have to leave really fast. Mormons are more fun for this, but Jehovah's Witnesses are a laugh riot.
- a3n 10y ago
  I haven't seen enough of the universe to feel confident that I'm correct in my atheism, and I haven't felt the hand of Nothing touch my heart and send me out to evangelize It.
  - Aelinsaar 10y ago
    Would you like a phrase to quickly and easily describe that state of being? Apatheistic Agnostic. You're not concerned with the issue, it's too big and universal and we're too human. You're not convinced of anything, and frankly, since whatever does or doesn't come after this is inevitable and inescapable, what's the point of endless debate during our finite lives? Who knows?... and who could even know? No one, that's who.
    - a3n 10y ago
      > Apatheistic Agnostic Actually I call myself an apathist among my friends. I don't care if there's a god, but if there is one, I doubt if it cares about me, and I doubt that it cares whether I believe in it or not.
      - Aelinsaar 10y ago
        It's a pleasure to make your digital acquaintance, I feel the same way.
    - Cogito 10y ago
      How does this fit with the assertion that there is no evidence that the supernatural interacts with the natural in any measurable (and hence meaningful) way? It seems related, but stronger: "I don't know if there exists supernatural, however I have no reason to believe the supernatural will ever effect me."
ldehaan 10y ago
what do you hope to gain by talking to them? I'm assuming that by capital A, versus lowercase a; atheists, you are trying to underscore the differences between people who understand that religion is a hoax but it doesn't affect me right now so I'll let it pass, and those who have been directly affected by religion and it's evils and see no other way but to fight it as hard as they push it? I will try to explain why this is bad: engaging the mentally ill in their delusions is not only mean (you don't believe their crazy stories, so why listen to them?) it's bad for society as a whole, because this is a untreated mental illness that is totally treatable and it's being spread because people refuse to treat it as a mental illness and instead say, believe what you want. why is it bad to allow the masses to remain ignorant? you (hopefully) wouldn't teach your children that the world is flat, because you were educated against such teachings. you wouldn't teach a medical student about the human body without allowing them to learn about the human body by cutting it open and studying it. you wouldn't let your neighbor spray your yard with ddt (hopefully) because a higher being told him it was safe. you wouldn't take advice from someone on the Internet without first researching the topic (we all do) yet we'll freely entertain the insanity of religion because why? so many people believe it? we all thought the world was flat, the human body was designed by God and shouldn't be examined, sprayed ddt right in our children's faces, and still take advice from strangers on the Internet without doing research because, we're sheep (hanlons razor). it's all stupidity, and fear. we're all alone, there is no guidebook and we're so painfully self aware. when you have No explanation, any explanation seems possible. the world is not flat, but knowing we knew, was comforting. anyways, what was I trying to get at? don't let them in. keep them very far away from you. if you want to help change the world, be proactive. openly challenge religious beliefs any time they are presented. it could get you killed. it will get you beaten. but we all have a duty to further the human species, and putting us second to imaginary beings is not exactly the way to go about it IMO.
- a3n 10y ago
  > what do you hope to gain by talking to them? They're people in my community. I like to be friendly with my neighbors, if not actual friends.
- morganvachon 10y ago
cbd1984 10y ago
If you're going to make a distinction, make it between individuals, not groups. Grouping people is harmful and breeds stereotypes.

by a3n 10y ago

I engage Jehovah's Witnesses, but not in the dick way that capital A Atheists might (I'm a small a atheist). I try to learn what they're about. They're generally nice people.

cbd1984 10y ago

Atheists are atheists. If you're going to make a distinction, make it between individuals, not groups.

Zancarius 10y ago
Perhaps I'm being unnecessarily charitable in my interpretation of what a3n said, but I gathered from the differentiation between "capital A" atheists and lowercase a atheists as a subtle distinction between individuals who evangelize their beliefs and those who don't.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  I think it is the party coming to your door that does the evangelizing and I've yet to have an atheist ring my doorbell.
  - nostrebored 10y ago
    Right, but to pretend that it doesn't happen in common conversation is absurd. Atheists frequently evangelize. It is a religious belief.
    - type0 10y ago
      > Atheists frequently evangelize. It is a religious belief. They evangelize, but its more of ideology that concerns religion rather than just a belief. The main problem with atheism is the definition: absence of religion, this is such a derogatory word as if believing in deities should be the norm. Agnostic is even worse seat: declaring that you have no clue but probably are somewhat spiritual. If you don't like religion say proudly that you are antitheist!
      - malka 10y ago
        > as if believing in deities should be the norm Well, de facto, it IS the norm. And it has been so for a long time
    - cbd1984 10y ago
      > Atheists frequently evangelize. It is a religious belief. It isn't, and it's insulting to say so: You're imposing a category on people based on deliberately misunderstanding their worldview. Atheists say their lack of belief isn't a belief, and saying otherwise is insulting.
    - Cogito 10y ago
      Calling atheism a religious belief is as disingenuous as describing science as a religion. It is possible to be religious in your science-based beliefs, but that does not make science itself a religion. If someone believes something only because "scientists" said so then they share many of the qualities of religions. I would shy away from calling even this a religion, however, as these people are willing to change their belief if the scientific consensus changes. Furthermore, merely evangelising is not enough to make something a religious belief and it would be an abuse of the language to conflate them in that way. It is completely reasonable to evangelise scientific ideas, and it would be wrong to label that act as a religious one. Atheism is not science, but it shares a common tenet; both atheists and scientists are willing to change their belief if shown appropriate evidence. Atheists can evangelise for many reasons, but those reasons need not be religious. For example, atheists may believe that religious teachings promote the worst aspects of tribalism and actively harm our society. An atheist can evangelise that the argument "My god is better than your god" is a pointless source of discontent in the world, and want to remove the source of that discontent, without being religious. Of course, there will be people who shout "you're wrong because SCIENCE!!" but the religious nature of those people doesn't magically transfer to the beliefs they hold simply because they hold them.
- a3n 10y ago
  Yeah, pretty much. I get real embarrassed when Atheists make fun of people for santa clause in the sky and such. Let people believe what they want, it's a hard universe.
  - Zancarius 10y ago
    I wish more people shared your outlook. Judging by some of the other comments here, in addition to the reply you received, I think we could all learn something from you!

uxp 10y ago

The house I bought last year came with a cheesy "No Solicitation" sign stuck to the screen door near the handle. I've wanted to remove it, but laziness and the fact that it has some utility has kept it in place. Oddly, Jehovah's Witnesses have been the only people to ignore it. I've watched Mormons walk up and turn away, though.

newjersey 10y ago

Yes. I have so much appreciation for their contributions to civil liberties. Yes, we should have a right to not say the pledge of allegiance. No, I won't exercise that right but it is seriously stupid to say we have a "right" to do something if we don't have a right to not do it. If we have to get up and pray, we do not have freedom to pray. People who refuse to stand up to pray at the beginning of a rodeo are people we have to be grateful for.

wglb 10y ago

Maybe consider checking this out: https://www.amazon.com/Years-Watchtower-Slave-Confessions-Converted/dp/0801063841 https://www.amazon.com/Years-Watchtower-Slave-Confessions-Co...

a3n 10y ago
And this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Fifths_Compromise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Fifths_Compromise
- wglb 10y ago
  Uh, I am not sure how the two are related.

anonbanker 10y ago

Or, invite them in, and (politely) try to pitch a conversion to atheism. I usually get sooo close, then you see that programming snap back into place (you'll see their expression change to one of terror), and they suddenly have to leave really fast. Mormons are more fun for this, but Jehovah's Witnesses are a laugh riot.

a3n 10y ago
I haven't seen enough of the universe to feel confident that I'm correct in my atheism, and I haven't felt the hand of Nothing touch my heart and send me out to evangelize It.
- Aelinsaar 10y ago
  Would you like a phrase to quickly and easily describe that state of being? Apatheistic Agnostic. You're not concerned with the issue, it's too big and universal and we're too human. You're not convinced of anything, and frankly, since whatever does or doesn't come after this is inevitable and inescapable, what's the point of endless debate during our finite lives? Who knows?... and who could even know? No one, that's who.
  - a3n 10y ago
    > Apatheistic Agnostic Actually I call myself an apathist among my friends. I don't care if there's a god, but if there is one, I doubt if it cares about me, and I doubt that it cares whether I believe in it or not.
    - Aelinsaar 10y ago
      It's a pleasure to make your digital acquaintance, I feel the same way.
  - Cogito 10y ago
    How does this fit with the assertion that there is no evidence that the supernatural interacts with the natural in any measurable (and hence meaningful) way? It seems related, but stronger: "I don't know if there exists supernatural, however I have no reason to believe the supernatural will ever effect me."

ldehaan 10y ago

what do you hope to gain by talking to them? I'm assuming that by capital A, versus lowercase a; atheists, you are trying to underscore the differences between people who understand that religion is a hoax but it doesn't affect me right now so I'll let it pass, and those who have been directly affected by religion and it's evils and see no other way but to fight it as hard as they push it? I will try to explain why this is bad: engaging the mentally ill in their delusions is not only mean (you don't believe their crazy stories, so why listen to them?) it's bad for society as a whole, because this is a untreated mental illness that is totally treatable and it's being spread because people refuse to treat it as a mental illness and instead say, believe what you want. why is it bad to allow the masses to remain ignorant? you (hopefully) wouldn't teach your children that the world is flat, because you were educated against such teachings. you wouldn't teach a medical student about the human body without allowing them to learn about the human body by cutting it open and studying it. you wouldn't let your neighbor spray your yard with ddt (hopefully) because a higher being told him it was safe. you wouldn't take advice from someone on the Internet without first researching the topic (we all do) yet we'll freely entertain the insanity of religion because why? so many people believe it? we all thought the world was flat, the human body was designed by God and shouldn't be examined, sprayed ddt right in our children's faces, and still take advice from strangers on the Internet without doing research because, we're sheep (hanlons razor). it's all stupidity, and fear. we're all alone, there is no guidebook and we're so painfully self aware. when you have No explanation, any explanation seems possible. the world is not flat, but knowing we knew, was comforting. anyways, what was I trying to get at? don't let them in. keep them very far away from you. if you want to help change the world, be proactive. openly challenge religious beliefs any time they are presented. it could get you killed. it will get you beaten. but we all have a duty to further the human species, and putting us second to imaginary beings is not exactly the way to go about it IMO.

a3n 10y ago
> what do you hope to gain by talking to them? They're people in my community. I like to be friendly with my neighbors, if not actual friends.
morganvachon 10y ago

cbd1984 10y ago

If you're going to make a distinction, make it between individuals, not groups. Grouping people is harmful and breeds stereotypes.