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Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

73 points by anexprogrammer 10y ago

BenoitP 10y ago
Link is a feed. Here is the article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/sturgeon-seeks-urgent-brussels-talks-to-protect-scotlands-eu-membership https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/sturgeon-see...
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  Oops, my bad
- sctb 10y ago
  Thanks, we updated the submission link.
Oletros 10y ago
An important part of the campaign against the independence was that they would be out of the EU, isn't? The irony is really big here
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  I think Cameron was absolutely certain the result would be remain. Unfortunately for him, the nation and the Tory party it wasn't.
  - Asooka 10y ago
    It might be good for them to cool off for a couple of decades and rejoin. It's not like Britain is dependent on EU subsidies or anything.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      It's subtle. The UK is a net contributor to the EU, but it also has the financial center of the EU in London. On top of that some areas of the UK are net recipients of EU money, others are contributors. Losing the financial center alone may already tip the balance out of favor, and for some areas (notably Scotland) the loss will be much larger. Back of the envelope has the UK in worse shape without the EU and access to their market than with. Regardless of what will happen now, the UK will lose the financial center (it will most likely end up in Frankfurt am Main), Scotland will secede from the UK and will apply (assuming a majority votes for that proposal) to the EU as an independent entity, much like Ireland. The one thing this referendum has already achieved is that the position of the UK on the world stage is marginalized further.
      - noir_lord 10y ago
        Simply put, London hands over money to the EU which hands most of it back to regions that London wouldn't have handed the money to in the first place (Scotland, North of England, Wales...somewhat ironically since many of them voted leave..). I think the reason we are no longer part of the EU is in part bad PR on the part of the EU on what it actually did. Which is why "what is the EU/what does the EU do" type queries have trended on google after the referendum. People suddenly wondering how fucked/non-fucked we are since the result.
      - BrutallyHonest 10y ago
        And of course, Hong Kong and Singapore will also stop being financial centres, since they haven't been in the EU to begin with.
        matthewmacleod 10y ago
        That's disingenuous and you know it. One of the main attractions of London as a banking centre is its EU membership. Sure, there are others, but it seems extremely likely that companies will relocate because they judge access to the EU market as more important.
- matthewmacleod 10y ago
  Quite the case. One of the key reasons that the Scottish referendum in 2014 was not won was because of uncertainty about continued EU membership and the currency that the country would use. To make that decision and less than two years later be dragged out of the EU anyway has pissed off a bunch of people. Lots of noise coming from former 'no' voters and media about how they feel misled. And now that Scotland has resoundingly - 24% margin! - voters to remain in the EU, it seems there is a bit of a mandate. I am not enjoying the atmosphere here at the moment. This whole thing has been a colossal fuckup which has permanently damaged the UK.
  - nolok 10y ago
    > This whole thing has been a colossal fuckup which has permanently damaged the UK. For me that's the biggest take away from it; half of the scots voters said they wanted out of that union, which usually means "we don't feel that country represents us properly". Now, that's not irreparable and you have a perfect, even stronger example in recent times with Quebec and Canada. The solution was "simple"; listen to them and go their way, if only a little. Show them that you care about them being in. Laugh all you want about the French labels everywhere in Canada but they're basically Canada saying "ok Quebec, we need you, let's stay together". With that Brexit vote, the UK has thrown away one of the biggest thing scots were sure about; they wanted to be in the EU. Even if they manage to not lose them through independence, it has been marked in the sand that England decides and Scotland follows, even if they really don't want to. (I mean 68% for remain ? I'm not sure any other EU country would get that at the moment, maybe Germany)
- danmaz74 10y ago
  That's correct. The UK, inside the EU, could have vetoed the admission of Scotland to spite them. But now, that's not the case anymore...
  - nolok 10y ago
    If I remember well even the EU said "well, quick admission is not certain, you would have to apply like any one else", then there was the Spanish question, the currency choice, ... Scotland wanted in the EU but weren't sure they would be able to be properly and quickly outside the UK, while staying in was the safe way to keep EU membership. Now they know for sure they can only be in by being outside the UK.
mhurron 10y ago
Well, now I need to get Scottish citizenship when they get around to being independent to get around the EU since a British passport isn't going to do it any more.
atmosx 10y ago
The EU membership will most likely come with a change of currency, which means leaving the BoE for the ECB. Given the ECB's track record and it's inability to do what a central bank ought to do - protect banks from bank runs, devalue, etc. - I believe that it's suicidal. The QE was was a joke. Surplus recycling is nowhere to be found in the European Union, vis-a-vis Germany Scotland will have deficit, hence it's doomed in the long run to become like Greece. The way the EU manages the economy, it's stupid for any deficit country to come in and compared to Germany, everybody will be in huge deficit in the long run. At that point you depend on the Bundesbank to over-value and the German government to raise salaries. None of this will happen, at that point you'll have a country on it's knees depending on a foreign institution (the ECB) who is controlled by a foreign nation which has it's own interests to protect. I'm sorry for GB. I'm sorry that a nation had to go through this, but their best bet is to stick together. EDIT: The first thing that the German gov did after Brexit says a long shot about how Germany envisions Europe: They summoned the 6 (or 7) countries that created the European Union. But the EU has 27 members now. Do you really want to be part of a union who doesn't give a damn about you and give your monetary policy to that union? About 16 years ago, at her last speech, M. Thatcher in a rare moment of enlightenment said about the EUR: He who control the interest rates controls the Economy and he who controls the economy controls the politics in Europe She was spot on.
- dijit 10y ago
  Sorry, but the point of the EU is not to just let everyone mooch off of the central banks and beg for handouts. Scotland outside of UK and part of the EU is a Scotland ripe for service industry. If the EU helps it's member states to be better than they are individually, which is supposed to be how it works, then there's no reason to assume Scotland will be running at a deficit forever.
  - pm90 10y ago
    It will be initially though, which is what we know for certain. Whether they will become a service industry utopia, is something which remains to be seen. In that case, it makes much more sense for Scotland to have control over its monetary and fiscal policies and not have them dictated by the ECB.
carsongross 10y ago
This is exactly how secession should work. Clearly the Scots and the English and Welsh have different opinions on being part of the EU. It is tyrannical for either group to force their preference on the others. So let Scotland secede and join the EU. Problem solved, human freedom and happiness maximized. See 'Secession: The Reasonable Option Everyone Resists' by Tom Woods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXOEdvfMeIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXOEdvfMeIY
- BrutallyHonest 10y ago
  It would be more fair to hold a referendum in England whether it should be united with Scotland. Would be more productive for Scotland's independence.
  - simonswords82 10y ago
    How so?
    - BrutallyHonest 10y ago
      Politically whiny, want the independence but keep the £, have a lot of preferences already etc.
      - nolok 10y ago
        > Politically whiny, want the independence but keep the access to free market, have a lot of preferences already etc. So .. According to you other european countries should get a referendum about UK being in the EU
  - bArray 10y ago
    I know of a lot of British people who do not want Scotland to be part of the UK. They get more funding per head, their own government and then complain they are unfairly treated.
    - 10y ago
duncanawoods 10y ago
There is a huge problem that the EU and IndyRef questions are mutually dependent and cannot be fairly resolved by asking independent questions in sequence. I believe the nuance of the situation requires multiple questions to be asked at the same time. Given we have already had IndyRef1 and EU1 the defaults are that Scotland is part of the UK and that there will be a Brexit. There is something wrong about repeating referendums until an irreversible result occurs. I believe Indyref2 would be fairer as two questions: 1. "If Brexit, should Scotland be a separate country?" for Scots 2. "Should we still Brexit if there would be a Scexit?" for the whole UK to vote. If the answers are "yes and no", then we get status quo.
- _9MOTHER9HORSE 10y ago
  This is quite an elegant solution, and I like it. I also think if we just held the same EU referendum again -- a sort of "are you sure?" -- the response would be a decisive remain vote.
  - DonaldFisk 10y ago
    And if the vote is again for leaving the EU, should we keep asking the question until we get the answer you want? All the vote was about was UK membership of the EU: not austerity, the exchange rate of the pound, the integrity of the UK, or immigration. Anyone who voted thinking otherwise should accept the consequences. Things are going exactly as planned: the UK is now going to leave the EU, and if one or two parts of it secede, those areas which did vote to leave are going to leave the EU.
- DonaldFisk 10y ago
  Scotland leaving the UK was a reasonably foreseeable result of Brexit, so voters in England and Wales should have asked themselves question 2 when they voted on Thursday. Britain, as a whole, voting for leaving the EU wasn't foreseen at the time of the Scottish independence referendum, so voters in that wouldn't have asked themselves question 1. So the Scottish government should at this stage try to negotiate a Danish-style deal (Scotland stays in EU and UK). If they are successful, there would be no immediate need for another independence referendum. Otherwise, they should get the best EU membership terms they can for Scotland, and hold another independence referendum.
BurningFrog 10y ago
The UK has granted independence to more countries than any other, they know how to do it well, and how to have a good relation with the new nation.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
  Lots of those countries had to get it through violence.
  - sidek 10y ago
    Most of those countries did come under, and were maintained under, British rule because of violence. But I don't think it's accurate to say that lots of them had to be violent to get their independence. The British largely gave that politically.
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
      Here are some polities that had to use violence to achieve independence from Britain: US India Pakistan Kenya Egypt Burma Sri Lanka Malaysia
JumpCrisscross 10y ago
Scotland, Northern Ireland and London wish to remain in the EU; non-London England and Wales wish to leave. The U.K. is already in the EU. Structurally, the simplest solution would be for non-City of London England* and Wales to secede from the UK, thereby allowing Scotland, Northern Ireland and the City to inherit the UK's EU membership. (Naturally, this won't happen because politics.) * Why the City of London versus Greater London? The City exists as a special legal entity in British law. Given how Parliament derives its right to rule from the Crown and the City has a special arrangement with the Crown, the City would find it technically easier to withdraw from England (while remaining in the UK) than Greater London.

Link is a feed. Here is the article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/sturgeon-seeks-urgent-brussels-talks-to-protect-scotlands-eu-membership https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/sturgeon-see...

anexprogrammer 10y ago
Oops, my bad
sctb 10y ago
Thanks, we updated the submission link.

Oletros 10y ago

An important part of the campaign against the independence was that they would be out of the EU, isn't? The irony is really big here

anexprogrammer 10y ago
I think Cameron was absolutely certain the result would be remain. Unfortunately for him, the nation and the Tory party it wasn't.
- Asooka 10y ago
  It might be good for them to cool off for a couple of decades and rejoin. It's not like Britain is dependent on EU subsidies or anything.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    It's subtle. The UK is a net contributor to the EU, but it also has the financial center of the EU in London. On top of that some areas of the UK are net recipients of EU money, others are contributors. Losing the financial center alone may already tip the balance out of favor, and for some areas (notably Scotland) the loss will be much larger. Back of the envelope has the UK in worse shape without the EU and access to their market than with. Regardless of what will happen now, the UK will lose the financial center (it will most likely end up in Frankfurt am Main), Scotland will secede from the UK and will apply (assuming a majority votes for that proposal) to the EU as an independent entity, much like Ireland. The one thing this referendum has already achieved is that the position of the UK on the world stage is marginalized further.
    - noir_lord 10y ago
      Simply put, London hands over money to the EU which hands most of it back to regions that London wouldn't have handed the money to in the first place (Scotland, North of England, Wales...somewhat ironically since many of them voted leave..). I think the reason we are no longer part of the EU is in part bad PR on the part of the EU on what it actually did. Which is why "what is the EU/what does the EU do" type queries have trended on google after the referendum. People suddenly wondering how fucked/non-fucked we are since the result.
    - BrutallyHonest 10y ago
      And of course, Hong Kong and Singapore will also stop being financial centres, since they haven't been in the EU to begin with.
      - matthewmacleod 10y ago
        That's disingenuous and you know it. One of the main attractions of London as a banking centre is its EU membership. Sure, there are others, but it seems extremely likely that companies will relocate because they judge access to the EU market as more important.
matthewmacleod 10y ago
Quite the case. One of the key reasons that the Scottish referendum in 2014 was not won was because of uncertainty about continued EU membership and the currency that the country would use. To make that decision and less than two years later be dragged out of the EU anyway has pissed off a bunch of people. Lots of noise coming from former 'no' voters and media about how they feel misled. And now that Scotland has resoundingly - 24% margin! - voters to remain in the EU, it seems there is a bit of a mandate. I am not enjoying the atmosphere here at the moment. This whole thing has been a colossal fuckup which has permanently damaged the UK.
- nolok 10y ago
  > This whole thing has been a colossal fuckup which has permanently damaged the UK. For me that's the biggest take away from it; half of the scots voters said they wanted out of that union, which usually means "we don't feel that country represents us properly". Now, that's not irreparable and you have a perfect, even stronger example in recent times with Quebec and Canada. The solution was "simple"; listen to them and go their way, if only a little. Show them that you care about them being in. Laugh all you want about the French labels everywhere in Canada but they're basically Canada saying "ok Quebec, we need you, let's stay together". With that Brexit vote, the UK has thrown away one of the biggest thing scots were sure about; they wanted to be in the EU. Even if they manage to not lose them through independence, it has been marked in the sand that England decides and Scotland follows, even if they really don't want to. (I mean 68% for remain ? I'm not sure any other EU country would get that at the moment, maybe Germany)
danmaz74 10y ago
That's correct. The UK, inside the EU, could have vetoed the admission of Scotland to spite them. But now, that's not the case anymore...
- nolok 10y ago
  If I remember well even the EU said "well, quick admission is not certain, you would have to apply like any one else", then there was the Spanish question, the currency choice, ... Scotland wanted in the EU but weren't sure they would be able to be properly and quickly outside the UK, while staying in was the safe way to keep EU membership. Now they know for sure they can only be in by being outside the UK.

mhurron 10y ago

Well, now I need to get Scottish citizenship when they get around to being independent to get around the EU since a British passport isn't going to do it any more.

atmosx 10y ago

The EU membership will most likely come with a change of currency, which means leaving the BoE for the ECB. Given the ECB's track record and it's inability to do what a central bank ought to do - protect banks from bank runs, devalue, etc. - I believe that it's suicidal. The QE was was a joke. Surplus recycling is nowhere to be found in the European Union, vis-a-vis Germany Scotland will have deficit, hence it's doomed in the long run to become like Greece. The way the EU manages the economy, it's stupid for any deficit country to come in and compared to Germany, everybody will be in huge deficit in the long run. At that point you depend on the Bundesbank to over-value and the German government to raise salaries. None of this will happen, at that point you'll have a country on it's knees depending on a foreign institution (the ECB) who is controlled by a foreign nation which has it's own interests to protect. I'm sorry for GB. I'm sorry that a nation had to go through this, but their best bet is to stick together. EDIT: The first thing that the German gov did after Brexit says a long shot about how Germany envisions Europe: They summoned the 6 (or 7) countries that created the European Union. But the EU has 27 members now. Do you really want to be part of a union who doesn't give a damn about you and give your monetary policy to that union? About 16 years ago, at her last speech, M. Thatcher in a rare moment of enlightenment said about the EUR: He who control the interest rates controls the Economy and he who controls the economy controls the politics in Europe She was spot on.

dijit 10y ago
Sorry, but the point of the EU is not to just let everyone mooch off of the central banks and beg for handouts. Scotland outside of UK and part of the EU is a Scotland ripe for service industry. If the EU helps it's member states to be better than they are individually, which is supposed to be how it works, then there's no reason to assume Scotland will be running at a deficit forever.
- pm90 10y ago
  It will be initially though, which is what we know for certain. Whether they will become a service industry utopia, is something which remains to be seen. In that case, it makes much more sense for Scotland to have control over its monetary and fiscal policies and not have them dictated by the ECB.

carsongross 10y ago

This is exactly how secession should work. Clearly the Scots and the English and Welsh have different opinions on being part of the EU. It is tyrannical for either group to force their preference on the others. So let Scotland secede and join the EU. Problem solved, human freedom and happiness maximized. See 'Secession: The Reasonable Option Everyone Resists' by Tom Woods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXOEdvfMeIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXOEdvfMeIY

BrutallyHonest 10y ago
It would be more fair to hold a referendum in England whether it should be united with Scotland. Would be more productive for Scotland's independence.
- simonswords82 10y ago
  How so?
  - BrutallyHonest 10y ago
    Politically whiny, want the independence but keep the £, have a lot of preferences already etc.
    - nolok 10y ago
      > Politically whiny, want the independence but keep the access to free market, have a lot of preferences already etc. So .. According to you other european countries should get a referendum about UK being in the EU
- bArray 10y ago
  I know of a lot of British people who do not want Scotland to be part of the UK. They get more funding per head, their own government and then complain they are unfairly treated.
  - 10y ago

duncanawoods 10y ago

There is a huge problem that the EU and IndyRef questions are mutually dependent and cannot be fairly resolved by asking independent questions in sequence. I believe the nuance of the situation requires multiple questions to be asked at the same time. Given we have already had IndyRef1 and EU1 the defaults are that Scotland is part of the UK and that there will be a Brexit. There is something wrong about repeating referendums until an irreversible result occurs. I believe Indyref2 would be fairer as two questions: 1. "If Brexit, should Scotland be a separate country?" for Scots 2. "Should we still Brexit if there would be a Scexit?" for the whole UK to vote. If the answers are "yes and no", then we get status quo.

_9MOTHER9HORSE 10y ago
This is quite an elegant solution, and I like it. I also think if we just held the same EU referendum again -- a sort of "are you sure?" -- the response would be a decisive remain vote.
- DonaldFisk 10y ago
  And if the vote is again for leaving the EU, should we keep asking the question until we get the answer you want? All the vote was about was UK membership of the EU: not austerity, the exchange rate of the pound, the integrity of the UK, or immigration. Anyone who voted thinking otherwise should accept the consequences. Things are going exactly as planned: the UK is now going to leave the EU, and if one or two parts of it secede, those areas which did vote to leave are going to leave the EU.
DonaldFisk 10y ago
Scotland leaving the UK was a reasonably foreseeable result of Brexit, so voters in England and Wales should have asked themselves question 2 when they voted on Thursday. Britain, as a whole, voting for leaving the EU wasn't foreseen at the time of the Scottish independence referendum, so voters in that wouldn't have asked themselves question 1. So the Scottish government should at this stage try to negotiate a Danish-style deal (Scotland stays in EU and UK). If they are successful, there would be no immediate need for another independence referendum. Otherwise, they should get the best EU membership terms they can for Scotland, and hold another independence referendum.

BurningFrog 10y ago

The UK has granted independence to more countries than any other, they know how to do it well, and how to have a good relation with the new nation.

GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
Lots of those countries had to get it through violence.
- sidek 10y ago
  Most of those countries did come under, and were maintained under, British rule because of violence. But I don't think it's accurate to say that lots of them had to be violent to get their independence. The British largely gave that politically.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
    Here are some polities that had to use violence to achieve independence from Britain: US India Pakistan Kenya Egypt Burma Sri Lanka Malaysia

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

Scotland, Northern Ireland and London wish to remain in the EU; non-London England and Wales wish to leave. The U.K. is already in the EU. Structurally, the simplest solution would be for non-City of London England* and Wales to secede from the UK, thereby allowing Scotland, Northern Ireland and the City to inherit the UK's EU membership. (Naturally, this won't happen because politics.) * Why the City of London versus Greater London? The City exists as a special legal entity in British law. Given how Parliament derives its right to rule from the Crown and the City has a special arrangement with the Crown, the City would find it technically easier to withdraw from England (while remaining in the UK) than Greater London.