15 ms·

I renounced my US citizenship

128 points by su_yuen 10y ago

umeshunni 10y ago
Her biggest complaint is that she has to report her overseas bank accounts. If she had done some basic research, she would have realized that this isn't specific to people residing outside the US, but any US national even within the US has to report foreign bank accounts with balances >$10k. The rest of her post reads like whining about having to fill out forms.
- protomyth 10y ago
  I think you miss the part where the foreign bank does its own reporting, and how said banks are starting to refuse to have US Citizens as customers.
  - bertiewhykovich 10y ago
    The author herself doesn't seem to be experiencing outrageous banking pain, though. She's paying no US taxes, and could almost certainly fill out her own tax forms if the thousand-Euro fee is onerous. It's completely unclear what, exactly, is so burdensome about her citizenship.
    - randyrand 10y ago
      It's pro vs cons. The cons might be small, but the pros might be even smaller.
    - protomyth 10y ago
      I would say her experience and stress of that experience are shown in her "Violation of Privacy" section. The final part "If they do not match, the US threatens excessively large fines, entirely out of proportion to the totals reported in those accounts, enough to wipe out one’s entire savings. Many banks, meanwhile, are beginning to refuse to do business with US citizens in order to lower their compliance costs." seems pretty painful. I would worry a lot if an error could subject me to a lot of problems.
      - kmonsen 10y ago
        In general the IRS does not come after you if you make what they think is an honest mistake. I have had several friends get a letter with a correct tax return and simply had to make up the difference.
        genericuser1234 10y ago
        It's not the IRS to worry about, but a department within the treasury called the "Financial Crimes Enforcement Network." So the concern is very much still valid.
  - freyfogle 10y ago
    Can confirm. US (dual) citizen living in Europe. Increasingly banks here will not take US citizens as customers as it is too annoying for them to deal with.
  - isoos 10y ago
    On top of that, while visa holders (H1, H4 for sure) need to report their accounts at home, the bank in their home country may refuse them as clients. Been there, seen that, not pleasant.
  - anarazel 10y ago
    Worse than that, they're now starting to refuse customers that spend noticeable time (~60 days) in the US, even if they're not working there, and are not citizens. Having just moved to the US, two of my German banks pretty want to fire me as a customer.
- vvanders 10y ago
  Yup, if you work for a non-US based company that offers stock you have to file an FBAR as well. It's not overly complicated(although the timing is different than taxes which can be a tad annoying). You already have to disclose your income so I don't see bank account balances as a large step up from that. I'm pretty certain all US based banks already do this so the FBAR just covers foreign accounts.
- tn13 10y ago
  This is part of the reason I moved all my funds from my Indian account to my father and mother's account just because I dont want to feel 10 other forms.
  - ameen 10y ago
    I'm curious btw, what made you give up your Indian citizenship in the first place. Seems to me that an American citizenship isn't all that cracked up to be (if you already hold a GC, H1, etc).
peatmoss 10y ago
Having spent 10% of my life as a resident of another country, this hits home. If I leave the U.S. a second time, it will likely be a permanent departure with renunciation of citizenship. I know others who feel the same.
protomyth 10y ago
This is one of those things that should be repealed. I've frankly gotten tired of the punishing of normal people by dumb privacy invading laws[1], or frankly, taxing them when they are not in the US. There are easier ways of going after people and companies (looking at you Monster Cable) that play fast an lose with our tax laws. I am all for only taxing income / revenue earned in the US. 1) we can get rid of all the BS $10,000 stuff in deposits in the US.
- british_india 10y ago
  Really FATCA is one of the most excellent laws that has been passed. Prior to this, you had expats who had milked the US and then they wanted to waltz off with their proceeds. Americans gain huge benefits from the taxes paid by prior generations. The entire US system is the envy of much of the world--and how did it get that way? Americans paying their taxes. Whether or not you have kids--you must pay property taxes that fund your local schools. Unfair? Hardly. Those schools don't come out of thin air--taxpayers who came before you paid for them. Stop your whining. If you were born in the US, then you benefitted. If you are a US citizen and you get in trouble somewhere on earth, the US government will come to your aid. That's what you're paying for, in addition to paying for the next generation of Americans to have schools, roads, public utilities and the like. Really, whining about having to pay your share--no matter where you have run off to--is ridiculous.
  - nshelly 10y ago
    Not quite clear how they can "waltz off with their proceeds." They would be required to pay taxes on any income they earned in the US, unless they figured out a way to actualize the income earlier (e.g. Eduardo Saverin renouncing before Facebook's IPO). Sure, by moving to the resident-based tax system used by nearly every other country in the world (China is trying to copy the US system and Eritrea requires you to pay an "expat" tax if you want a visa to return), the US expat could take their US-based K-12 education and leave and work elsewhere, but that's not quite the same. People pay for their college education. An excellent education system also serves the domestic purpose of having an informed citizenry to pass good laws, and attract the best and brightest immigrants from around the world. I think the biggest reasons other nations don't tax overseas income is because they don't have the power to force a special exception for their expatriate citizens (e.g. Greek citizens working in Canada). The US is using its position of power to require these overseas banks to modify all of their accounting and reporting systems to continue to do business in the U.S. This has large issues of fairness and generates animosity.
youngButEager 10y ago
Want to reduce stress and frustration in your life? Add this to your personal philosophy: "If it's stupid, get away from it." - dumb boss? job transfer or new job - dumb family members causing you problems? Avoid them. - dumb taxation? get away from the legal clutches of the taxing authority Everything detrimental in life that can be avoided, should be avoided if possible. There is enough unhappy other stuff that comes up in our lives that if you're not at least bailing on crappy situations, you're missing a chance at a happier less stressful life.
letitleak 10y ago
Charging for renunciation is the most ridiculous part. You are paying for a process that: is expensive only since they want to investigate you as a presumed criminal or tax dodger (the movie Brazil comes to mind) is a result of their non-compliance with international norms is the result of the US declaring you have a status that was never requested As an expat I consider all US citizens to be indentured servants due to this requirement to buy independence from the US and whatever it chooses to enact next. Effectively, these changes are not noticed by the US' domestics, but those who think they "can flee to Canada" when they have ethical problems with the US are now deluding themselves. "If you don't like it, then leave" may have been sarcastic BS, but at least it was a real choice that many people made in the Vietnam era, etc. If you don't like us leave us money (which we will use in the ways you probably object to)" is something else. I will find it both funny and sad that when the people who supported the two party system are pissed by someone like Trump implementing fascist policies they will finally realize that their own willingness to destroy our basic civil rights makes it impossible for them to avoid helping a system they find morally repugnent and criminal.
- skywhopper 10y ago
  I'm curious, what is stopping expats with foreign citizenship and an objection to the paperwork from just letting their US passports expire (or for the "accidental americans" not ever establishing one) and just not complying with all the annoying rules?
  - arcanus 10y ago
    You could find yourself having a great deal of trouble coming back across the border. So kiss vacations or business travel to the USA goodbye. If you can live without that, I suspect you are fine.
    - cmrdporcupine 10y ago
      Nope, if you are in Canada for example they'll just take your assets. They strongarmed the Canadian banks into forcing disclosure of all US citizens bank account contents. And there are plenty of people around the world who have discovered they have US citizenship without knowing it before. And now they have to file with the IRS. Glad I never got dual citizenship through my grandmother. In the past having USian citizenship would be nice. Now it would just be a pain.
jkot 10y ago
One can always reapply for citizenship under the same conditions as anyone else. If her parents are Americans and she was born here, she will very likely get citizenship back.
tn13 10y ago
I could have become a US citizen long back but I have avoided taking that citizenship for the simple reason that I don't want to expose myself to American Tax Terrorism.
- dalke 10y ago
  It couldn't have been that long back as three years ago you were newly in the US with an H4 spouse visa (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6364977 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6364977 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5323455 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5323455 ). I assume you asked https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11972642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11972642 5 hours ago for a friend? Also, even greencard/non-citizens are subject to ATT.
2muchcoffeeman 10y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_American https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_American Yep, looks like that's true. Seems like US hospitals need lawyers and accountants on staff to explain the liabilities a new born will have later in life and you guys need to have a law that allows parents to officially reject citizenship on behalf of a new born.
tn13 10y ago
Congratulations. I think some small country should negotiate a deal with all other nations and come up with a citizenship program that gives good value for their passport and then allow Americans (or any other highly taxed nationals) to settle there. For example Lala-Land does some background checks and issues passport to its citizens which can then be used to travel almost all the countries in the world. Lala-Land will give passports to anyone who applies if they pay enough money and show some evidence that they arent criminals etc.
- cpursley 10y ago
  It's called St. Kitts and Nevis (and there's a few more). https://www.henleyglobal.com/citizenship-saint-kitts-nevis-citizenship/ https://www.henleyglobal.com/citizenship-saint-kitts-nevis-c...
kilroy123 10y ago
As someone living abroad, I agree there is a lot of bull shit now, involving banking. I only have bank accounts in the US because of the complicated laws. That's not a big deal. What REALLY pisses me off, is that banks in the US are declining service because you live abroad. For example, holding investment accounts back in the US. If they find out I'm living abroad they will promptly close my accounts. I can't have a retirement accounts because I live abroad!? What do I do? Maintain a mailing address back in the US, in a state that collects no income tax. Use a VPN to login to retirement accounts. Insane. Edit: I don't even mind paying taxes over 100k. Why? I can still go home whenever I want. I can go to one of the many embassies around the world and get a new passport. Ask for help, etc. I'll still get social security later. (Huge maybe) http://thunfinancial.com/us-brokerage-accounts-american-expats-closed-2015/ http://thunfinancial.com/us-brokerage-accounts-american-expa... http://blogs.wsj.com/expat/2015/09/20/american-expats-scramble-to-keep-u-s-investment-accounts/ http://blogs.wsj.com/expat/2015/09/20/american-expats-scramb...
- dalke 10y ago
  When you say "living abroad", do you mean you have a local job, get paid in the local currency, pay rent and bills in the local currency, etc.? Which you do all through a US bank? If so, what are you paying for international transaction fees? Surely much more than using a local debit card. > I can still go home whenever I want. I can go to one of the many embassies around the world and get a new passport. There's nothing special about the US in that regard. A citizen of Germany can do the same at any German embassy, even when not a resident in Germany and therefore not paying German income taxes, and also has the right to return to Germany.
skywhopper 10y ago
It sounds like she didn't pay US income tax, she just had to file a tax return, which seems reasonable. The idea that the US government doesn't track US citizens bank accounts if they live in the US is laughable. Of course they do. Banks have to report all kinds of details of large transactions and balances. We don't have to fill out forms because the government can go directly to the banks to get the information. The way voting works I think is entirely reasonable. How else should it work? Is she suggesting there be senators and representatives just for expats? I would honestly expect the states would not want expats voting in their local elections, so the expats have more rights than I would expect there. For the Presidential election, yeah our voting system is screwed up there, but it is screwed up for everyone. So it sounds like she left to avoid paperwork that felt intrusive. Meh. Welcome to life.
- graeme 10y ago
  The IRS is a nightmare to deal with abroad. I'm Canadian, do not owe any US tax returns. Once, they thought I did because a payee filed the wrong form. Took three years to resolve. I had to physically visit an IRS office while on a trip to confirm it, because email, mail, and phone communications all resulted in form replies. In fact, the IRS office couldn't even confirm it. All they could confirm is that there no longer were asking for a return. Wait times of over an hour by phone. And incredibly complicated forms to figure out. There's a reason people are paying $3000 to avoiding it. Not even getting into the banking difficulties for Americans abroad.
- serge2k 10y ago
  > It sounds like she didn't pay US income tax, she just had to file a tax return, which seems reasonable. It's really not. That part about banks not wanting to serve american's is true. (Almost) no other countries do this type of thing.
  - british_india 10y ago
    Nonsense. FATCA was started by the US but now the OECD and many, many other countries around the world are copying it--as they should. Earlier, banks were more than willing to support the tax evasions of Americans. But in case you were living in a cave, the last few years have seen those tax-evasion-enabling international banks fall one by one, admitting they enabled tax evasion and paying massive fines. So, the banks don't want Americans because they know so frequently those Americans are practicing tax evasion. They were burned and never again want to enable tax evasion. Rightly so.
bruceb 10y ago
1. Having American citizenship allows her to travel easily and often visa free to many countries. 2. Allows her to work in America with no visa issues. Access to top companies in the world including most of the ones we see on HN. 3. Allows her potential kids to have access same benefits and go to universities cheaper and again easily work in the US even if they didn't grow up there. Should renunciation chargers be changed? Probably. Maybe if you don't earn very much you could pay less. Are there somethings that could be reformed? Yes. But she is complaining about forms and doesn't even pay taxes.
- dalke 10y ago
  Having Dutch citizenship gives her #1. The Dutch passport gives visa-free access to 156 countries. The US passport gives visa-free access to 155 countries. See https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php?ccode=nl https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php?ccode=nl . Her Dutch citizenship still gives her access to the EU, including many companies mentioned even on HN, a US-centric site. LOL! 1) Her child has US citizenship - that doesn't go away after she renounced, 2) As an EU citizen, her children would have rights that US citizens don't have, and 3) Standard tuition fees in the Netherlands are about $2500, which is less than a community college tuition in the US.
serge2k 10y ago
> To get the same records in the US, law enforcement would have to get a subpoena Don't any deposits over a threshold get reported domestically as well? IIRC 10k is the limit. > At the same time, the US has worked out Intergovernmental Agreements (IGA’s) with many countries, including the Netherlands Worked out... bullied. As I recall the threat was to stop allowing business with the US. > By the US definition, they are US citizens as well, and should have been filing US income tax forms every year. Many only discovered this recently and are now under threat of huge fines if they do not get compliant with the US taxation laws. The same goes for children of US citizens, like my son, who are born abroad but qualify as US citizens. Don't you have to apply to get citizenship? I thought it was more of you are entitled to citizenship. I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't tell the US gov't to get fucked in this situation, unless you actually are taking advantage of being a citizen. So glad Canada (and nowhere else but what, 1-2 countries?) have this global taxation BS.
tim333 10y ago
I know the US is set in their ways but adopting residence based taxation like everyone else wouldn't cause many problems. You can always have an anti avoidance clause for capital gains to stop billionaire shareholders skipping abroad to sell their shares.
hn_user2 10y ago
Interesting. Although I have always just assumed that since I need a social security number to open any kind of account in the US that the IRS already knows how much I have in the bank. >If US citizens living in the US had to report the balance of every account they had in their local bank — all their assets, in other words, not just their income — they would be up in arms, protesting the government’s intrusion in citizens’ private business.
Grue3 10y ago
And I would've taken it in a heartbeat. This post seeps with privilege. Oh no, you're in a position to choose between two first-world countries. We're so sad for you. Not.
researcher7 10y ago
You complain about the US legal system, which based on the constitution protects everyone with due process rights, and like countries like the Netherlands which have no bill of rights? Me and my family spent our life savings, endured the horrors of leaving everything behind to come to the US to enjoy the liberty and rights that are guaranteed to everyone, yet people like you are not happy and want lower standards. Good riddance. If you don't want to be a citizen of this great country, it would be better than you.
- jorkro 10y ago
  Uhm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Netherlands#Chapter_1:_Basic_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Netherland... Although I agree with you that this does not seem like a good reason to renounce your US citizenship over, it is pointing out some issues with the US tax code that need fixing. Your response doesn't address that and reads more like an ad hominem attack.
- fharper1961 10y ago
  The problem the OP brings up is when you're a USA citizen living outside of the USA. It seems like you live in the USA, so you don't have to put up with all of the unreasonable and invasive bureaucracy she writes about. Guilty until you prove yourself innocent is not the USA way! But that's what the current systems require USA expats to do every year.
parsnipsumthing 10y ago
Millions of Americans every year don't pay taxes or file any tax returns. I would recommend that instead. If you are a not particularly wealthy individual and you don't owe any back taxes to the IRS, the consequences of not any filing taxes are likely to be nothing.
klunger 10y ago
This is a duplicate of a submission I made 2 weeks ago. Anyway, as an American abroad, I think about this periodically. Like the author, I never owe anything in taxes, but the stress and expense from making sure paperwork is correctly filed each year is really awful. If I mess something up on my FBARs, non-willfully, I would be fined enough to completely bankrupt me, the fines being way above the value of the accounts I might somehow misreport. How can you misreport an account? Well, you could use the wrong currency exchange rate, or you might not have access to information required on the form so you have o guess, or you could think that accounts with a balance of 0 all year do not need to be reported (turns out they do). Or maybe you think that an account with money for a loan does not need to be reported because it is not really your money (you do). And so on. Every mistake costs you 10k/account/year. It is true insanity. Also, I currently have no tax deferred way to save for retirement because my employer funded pension account here (it is essentially a 401k, just based in Norway) is treated as a regular investment account by the IRS. So, I have to pay taxes on any gains each year on my pension. Luckily, this has always been below the standard deduction, but in some years, it will (hopefully) not be. I also cannot make any contributions myself to the account or else it turns into a PFIC (which is a Very Bad Thing). That being said, I am hopeful that FATCA will be repealed, or at least revised so that it does not threaten to bankrupt middle class Americans with the ridiculous fee structure and recognizes foreign pension accounts. I do not want to give up my US citizenship, but will be forced to if something does not change in the next few years.
- british_india 10y ago
  Amazing how every rich expat who hates FATCA attempts to complain that it goes after "middle class Americans". How convenient if FATCA were repealed and the good old days of Tax Evasion could resume. It is precisely rich expats who have themselves to blame for FATCA. If you find the paperwork onerous--why not just renounce your citizenship? Must be that you get some advantages you're not disclosing by keeping your US citizenship. Every American who does their taxes has to deal with this stress. So, you're special and should get your US citizenship advantages without paying for them? You looking for expat welfare? FATCA will never be repealed. On the contrary, it's being copied by other governments all over the world. But you had to have known that the tax evasion party was going to eventually come to an end. If you consider yourself a victim of FATCA, then your anger should be directed at other rich expats who abused the system so badly that they inspired Congress to pass FATCA with both Democratic and Republican support.

128 points by su_yuen 10y ago

Her biggest complaint is that she has to report her overseas bank accounts. If she had done some basic research, she would have realized that this isn't specific to people residing outside the US, but any US national even within the US has to report foreign bank accounts with balances >$10k. The rest of her post reads like whining about having to fill out forms.

protomyth 10y ago
I think you miss the part where the foreign bank does its own reporting, and how said banks are starting to refuse to have US Citizens as customers.
- bertiewhykovich 10y ago
  The author herself doesn't seem to be experiencing outrageous banking pain, though. She's paying no US taxes, and could almost certainly fill out her own tax forms if the thousand-Euro fee is onerous. It's completely unclear what, exactly, is so burdensome about her citizenship.
  - randyrand 10y ago
    It's pro vs cons. The cons might be small, but the pros might be even smaller.
  - protomyth 10y ago
    I would say her experience and stress of that experience are shown in her "Violation of Privacy" section. The final part "If they do not match, the US threatens excessively large fines, entirely out of proportion to the totals reported in those accounts, enough to wipe out one’s entire savings. Many banks, meanwhile, are beginning to refuse to do business with US citizens in order to lower their compliance costs." seems pretty painful. I would worry a lot if an error could subject me to a lot of problems.
    - kmonsen 10y ago
      In general the IRS does not come after you if you make what they think is an honest mistake. I have had several friends get a letter with a correct tax return and simply had to make up the difference.
      - genericuser1234 10y ago
        It's not the IRS to worry about, but a department within the treasury called the "Financial Crimes Enforcement Network." So the concern is very much still valid.
- freyfogle 10y ago
  Can confirm. US (dual) citizen living in Europe. Increasingly banks here will not take US citizens as customers as it is too annoying for them to deal with.
- isoos 10y ago
  On top of that, while visa holders (H1, H4 for sure) need to report their accounts at home, the bank in their home country may refuse them as clients. Been there, seen that, not pleasant.
- anarazel 10y ago
  Worse than that, they're now starting to refuse customers that spend noticeable time (~60 days) in the US, even if they're not working there, and are not citizens. Having just moved to the US, two of my German banks pretty want to fire me as a customer.
vvanders 10y ago
Yup, if you work for a non-US based company that offers stock you have to file an FBAR as well. It's not overly complicated(although the timing is different than taxes which can be a tad annoying). You already have to disclose your income so I don't see bank account balances as a large step up from that. I'm pretty certain all US based banks already do this so the FBAR just covers foreign accounts.
tn13 10y ago
This is part of the reason I moved all my funds from my Indian account to my father and mother's account just because I dont want to feel 10 other forms.
- ameen 10y ago
  I'm curious btw, what made you give up your Indian citizenship in the first place. Seems to me that an American citizenship isn't all that cracked up to be (if you already hold a GC, H1, etc).

peatmoss 10y ago

Having spent 10% of my life as a resident of another country, this hits home. If I leave the U.S. a second time, it will likely be a permanent departure with renunciation of citizenship. I know others who feel the same.

protomyth 10y ago

This is one of those things that should be repealed. I've frankly gotten tired of the punishing of normal people by dumb privacy invading laws[1], or frankly, taxing them when they are not in the US. There are easier ways of going after people and companies (looking at you Monster Cable) that play fast an lose with our tax laws. I am all for only taxing income / revenue earned in the US. 1) we can get rid of all the BS $10,000 stuff in deposits in the US.

british_india 10y ago
Really FATCA is one of the most excellent laws that has been passed. Prior to this, you had expats who had milked the US and then they wanted to waltz off with their proceeds. Americans gain huge benefits from the taxes paid by prior generations. The entire US system is the envy of much of the world--and how did it get that way? Americans paying their taxes. Whether or not you have kids--you must pay property taxes that fund your local schools. Unfair? Hardly. Those schools don't come out of thin air--taxpayers who came before you paid for them. Stop your whining. If you were born in the US, then you benefitted. If you are a US citizen and you get in trouble somewhere on earth, the US government will come to your aid. That's what you're paying for, in addition to paying for the next generation of Americans to have schools, roads, public utilities and the like. Really, whining about having to pay your share--no matter where you have run off to--is ridiculous.
- nshelly 10y ago
  Not quite clear how they can "waltz off with their proceeds." They would be required to pay taxes on any income they earned in the US, unless they figured out a way to actualize the income earlier (e.g. Eduardo Saverin renouncing before Facebook's IPO). Sure, by moving to the resident-based tax system used by nearly every other country in the world (China is trying to copy the US system and Eritrea requires you to pay an "expat" tax if you want a visa to return), the US expat could take their US-based K-12 education and leave and work elsewhere, but that's not quite the same. People pay for their college education. An excellent education system also serves the domestic purpose of having an informed citizenry to pass good laws, and attract the best and brightest immigrants from around the world. I think the biggest reasons other nations don't tax overseas income is because they don't have the power to force a special exception for their expatriate citizens (e.g. Greek citizens working in Canada). The US is using its position of power to require these overseas banks to modify all of their accounting and reporting systems to continue to do business in the U.S. This has large issues of fairness and generates animosity.

youngButEager 10y ago

Want to reduce stress and frustration in your life? Add this to your personal philosophy: "If it's stupid, get away from it." - dumb boss? job transfer or new job - dumb family members causing you problems? Avoid them. - dumb taxation? get away from the legal clutches of the taxing authority Everything detrimental in life that can be avoided, should be avoided if possible. There is enough unhappy other stuff that comes up in our lives that if you're not at least bailing on crappy situations, you're missing a chance at a happier less stressful life.

letitleak 10y ago

Charging for renunciation is the most ridiculous part. You are paying for a process that: is expensive only since they want to investigate you as a presumed criminal or tax dodger (the movie Brazil comes to mind) is a result of their non-compliance with international norms is the result of the US declaring you have a status that was never requested As an expat I consider all US citizens to be indentured servants due to this requirement to buy independence from the US and whatever it chooses to enact next. Effectively, these changes are not noticed by the US' domestics, but those who think they "can flee to Canada" when they have ethical problems with the US are now deluding themselves. "If you don't like it, then leave" may have been sarcastic BS, but at least it was a real choice that many people made in the Vietnam era, etc. If you don't like us leave us money (which we will use in the ways you probably object to)" is something else. I will find it both funny and sad that when the people who supported the two party system are pissed by someone like Trump implementing fascist policies they will finally realize that their own willingness to destroy our basic civil rights makes it impossible for them to avoid helping a system they find morally repugnent and criminal.

skywhopper 10y ago
I'm curious, what is stopping expats with foreign citizenship and an objection to the paperwork from just letting their US passports expire (or for the "accidental americans" not ever establishing one) and just not complying with all the annoying rules?
- arcanus 10y ago
  You could find yourself having a great deal of trouble coming back across the border. So kiss vacations or business travel to the USA goodbye. If you can live without that, I suspect you are fine.
  - cmrdporcupine 10y ago
    Nope, if you are in Canada for example they'll just take your assets. They strongarmed the Canadian banks into forcing disclosure of all US citizens bank account contents. And there are plenty of people around the world who have discovered they have US citizenship without knowing it before. And now they have to file with the IRS. Glad I never got dual citizenship through my grandmother. In the past having USian citizenship would be nice. Now it would just be a pain.

jkot 10y ago

One can always reapply for citizenship under the same conditions as anyone else. If her parents are Americans and she was born here, she will very likely get citizenship back.

tn13 10y ago

I could have become a US citizen long back but I have avoided taking that citizenship for the simple reason that I don't want to expose myself to American Tax Terrorism.

dalke 10y ago
It couldn't have been that long back as three years ago you were newly in the US with an H4 spouse visa (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6364977 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6364977 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5323455 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5323455 ). I assume you asked https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11972642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11972642 5 hours ago for a friend? Also, even greencard/non-citizens are subject to ATT.

2muchcoffeeman 10y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_American https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_American Yep, looks like that's true. Seems like US hospitals need lawyers and accountants on staff to explain the liabilities a new born will have later in life and you guys need to have a law that allows parents to officially reject citizenship on behalf of a new born.

tn13 10y ago

Congratulations. I think some small country should negotiate a deal with all other nations and come up with a citizenship program that gives good value for their passport and then allow Americans (or any other highly taxed nationals) to settle there. For example Lala-Land does some background checks and issues passport to its citizens which can then be used to travel almost all the countries in the world. Lala-Land will give passports to anyone who applies if they pay enough money and show some evidence that they arent criminals etc.

cpursley 10y ago
It's called St. Kitts and Nevis (and there's a few more). https://www.henleyglobal.com/citizenship-saint-kitts-nevis-citizenship/ https://www.henleyglobal.com/citizenship-saint-kitts-nevis-c...

kilroy123 10y ago

As someone living abroad, I agree there is a lot of bull shit now, involving banking. I only have bank accounts in the US because of the complicated laws. That's not a big deal. What REALLY pisses me off, is that banks in the US are declining service because you live abroad. For example, holding investment accounts back in the US. If they find out I'm living abroad they will promptly close my accounts. I can't have a retirement accounts because I live abroad!? What do I do? Maintain a mailing address back in the US, in a state that collects no income tax. Use a VPN to login to retirement accounts. Insane. Edit: I don't even mind paying taxes over 100k. Why? I can still go home whenever I want. I can go to one of the many embassies around the world and get a new passport. Ask for help, etc. I'll still get social security later. (Huge maybe) http://thunfinancial.com/us-brokerage-accounts-american-expats-closed-2015/ http://thunfinancial.com/us-brokerage-accounts-american-expa... http://blogs.wsj.com/expat/2015/09/20/american-expats-scramble-to-keep-u-s-investment-accounts/ http://blogs.wsj.com/expat/2015/09/20/american-expats-scramb...

dalke 10y ago
When you say "living abroad", do you mean you have a local job, get paid in the local currency, pay rent and bills in the local currency, etc.? Which you do all through a US bank? If so, what are you paying for international transaction fees? Surely much more than using a local debit card. > I can still go home whenever I want. I can go to one of the many embassies around the world and get a new passport. There's nothing special about the US in that regard. A citizen of Germany can do the same at any German embassy, even when not a resident in Germany and therefore not paying German income taxes, and also has the right to return to Germany.

skywhopper 10y ago

It sounds like she didn't pay US income tax, she just had to file a tax return, which seems reasonable. The idea that the US government doesn't track US citizens bank accounts if they live in the US is laughable. Of course they do. Banks have to report all kinds of details of large transactions and balances. We don't have to fill out forms because the government can go directly to the banks to get the information. The way voting works I think is entirely reasonable. How else should it work? Is she suggesting there be senators and representatives just for expats? I would honestly expect the states would not want expats voting in their local elections, so the expats have more rights than I would expect there. For the Presidential election, yeah our voting system is screwed up there, but it is screwed up for everyone. So it sounds like she left to avoid paperwork that felt intrusive. Meh. Welcome to life.

graeme 10y ago
The IRS is a nightmare to deal with abroad. I'm Canadian, do not owe any US tax returns. Once, they thought I did because a payee filed the wrong form. Took three years to resolve. I had to physically visit an IRS office while on a trip to confirm it, because email, mail, and phone communications all resulted in form replies. In fact, the IRS office couldn't even confirm it. All they could confirm is that there no longer were asking for a return. Wait times of over an hour by phone. And incredibly complicated forms to figure out. There's a reason people are paying $3000 to avoiding it. Not even getting into the banking difficulties for Americans abroad.
serge2k 10y ago
> It sounds like she didn't pay US income tax, she just had to file a tax return, which seems reasonable. It's really not. That part about banks not wanting to serve american's is true. (Almost) no other countries do this type of thing.
- british_india 10y ago
  Nonsense. FATCA was started by the US but now the OECD and many, many other countries around the world are copying it--as they should. Earlier, banks were more than willing to support the tax evasions of Americans. But in case you were living in a cave, the last few years have seen those tax-evasion-enabling international banks fall one by one, admitting they enabled tax evasion and paying massive fines. So, the banks don't want Americans because they know so frequently those Americans are practicing tax evasion. They were burned and never again want to enable tax evasion. Rightly so.

bruceb 10y ago

1. Having American citizenship allows her to travel easily and often visa free to many countries. 2. Allows her to work in America with no visa issues. Access to top companies in the world including most of the ones we see on HN. 3. Allows her potential kids to have access same benefits and go to universities cheaper and again easily work in the US even if they didn't grow up there. Should renunciation chargers be changed? Probably. Maybe if you don't earn very much you could pay less. Are there somethings that could be reformed? Yes. But she is complaining about forms and doesn't even pay taxes.

dalke 10y ago
Having Dutch citizenship gives her #1. The Dutch passport gives visa-free access to 156 countries. The US passport gives visa-free access to 155 countries. See https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php?ccode=nl https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php?ccode=nl . Her Dutch citizenship still gives her access to the EU, including many companies mentioned even on HN, a US-centric site. LOL! 1) Her child has US citizenship - that doesn't go away after she renounced, 2) As an EU citizen, her children would have rights that US citizens don't have, and 3) Standard tuition fees in the Netherlands are about $2500, which is less than a community college tuition in the US.

serge2k 10y ago

> To get the same records in the US, law enforcement would have to get a subpoena Don't any deposits over a threshold get reported domestically as well? IIRC 10k is the limit. > At the same time, the US has worked out Intergovernmental Agreements (IGA’s) with many countries, including the Netherlands Worked out... bullied. As I recall the threat was to stop allowing business with the US. > By the US definition, they are US citizens as well, and should have been filing US income tax forms every year. Many only discovered this recently and are now under threat of huge fines if they do not get compliant with the US taxation laws. The same goes for children of US citizens, like my son, who are born abroad but qualify as US citizens. Don't you have to apply to get citizenship? I thought it was more of you are entitled to citizenship. I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't tell the US gov't to get fucked in this situation, unless you actually are taking advantage of being a citizen. So glad Canada (and nowhere else but what, 1-2 countries?) have this global taxation BS.

tim333 10y ago

I know the US is set in their ways but adopting residence based taxation like everyone else wouldn't cause many problems. You can always have an anti avoidance clause for capital gains to stop billionaire shareholders skipping abroad to sell their shares.

hn_user2 10y ago

Interesting. Although I have always just assumed that since I need a social security number to open any kind of account in the US that the IRS already knows how much I have in the bank. >If US citizens living in the US had to report the balance of every account they had in their local bank — all their assets, in other words, not just their income — they would be up in arms, protesting the government’s intrusion in citizens’ private business.

Grue3 10y ago

And I would've taken it in a heartbeat. This post seeps with privilege. Oh no, you're in a position to choose between two first-world countries. We're so sad for you. Not.

researcher7 10y ago

You complain about the US legal system, which based on the constitution protects everyone with due process rights, and like countries like the Netherlands which have no bill of rights? Me and my family spent our life savings, endured the horrors of leaving everything behind to come to the US to enjoy the liberty and rights that are guaranteed to everyone, yet people like you are not happy and want lower standards. Good riddance. If you don't want to be a citizen of this great country, it would be better than you.

jorkro 10y ago
Uhm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Netherlands#Chapter_1:_Basic_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Netherland... Although I agree with you that this does not seem like a good reason to renounce your US citizenship over, it is pointing out some issues with the US tax code that need fixing. Your response doesn't address that and reads more like an ad hominem attack.
fharper1961 10y ago
The problem the OP brings up is when you're a USA citizen living outside of the USA. It seems like you live in the USA, so you don't have to put up with all of the unreasonable and invasive bureaucracy she writes about. Guilty until you prove yourself innocent is not the USA way! But that's what the current systems require USA expats to do every year.

parsnipsumthing 10y ago

Millions of Americans every year don't pay taxes or file any tax returns. I would recommend that instead. If you are a not particularly wealthy individual and you don't owe any back taxes to the IRS, the consequences of not any filing taxes are likely to be nothing.

klunger 10y ago

This is a duplicate of a submission I made 2 weeks ago. Anyway, as an American abroad, I think about this periodically. Like the author, I never owe anything in taxes, but the stress and expense from making sure paperwork is correctly filed each year is really awful. If I mess something up on my FBARs, non-willfully, I would be fined enough to completely bankrupt me, the fines being way above the value of the accounts I might somehow misreport. How can you misreport an account? Well, you could use the wrong currency exchange rate, or you might not have access to information required on the form so you have o guess, or you could think that accounts with a balance of 0 all year do not need to be reported (turns out they do). Or maybe you think that an account with money for a loan does not need to be reported because it is not really your money (you do). And so on. Every mistake costs you 10k/account/year. It is true insanity. Also, I currently have no tax deferred way to save for retirement because my employer funded pension account here (it is essentially a 401k, just based in Norway) is treated as a regular investment account by the IRS. So, I have to pay taxes on any gains each year on my pension. Luckily, this has always been below the standard deduction, but in some years, it will (hopefully) not be. I also cannot make any contributions myself to the account or else it turns into a PFIC (which is a Very Bad Thing). That being said, I am hopeful that FATCA will be repealed, or at least revised so that it does not threaten to bankrupt middle class Americans with the ridiculous fee structure and recognizes foreign pension accounts. I do not want to give up my US citizenship, but will be forced to if something does not change in the next few years.

british_india 10y ago
Amazing how every rich expat who hates FATCA attempts to complain that it goes after "middle class Americans". How convenient if FATCA were repealed and the good old days of Tax Evasion could resume. It is precisely rich expats who have themselves to blame for FATCA. If you find the paperwork onerous--why not just renounce your citizenship? Must be that you get some advantages you're not disclosing by keeping your US citizenship. Every American who does their taxes has to deal with this stress. So, you're special and should get your US citizenship advantages without paying for them? You looking for expat welfare? FATCA will never be repealed. On the contrary, it's being copied by other governments all over the world. But you had to have known that the tax evasion party was going to eventually come to an end. If you consider yourself a victim of FATCA, then your anger should be directed at other rich expats who abused the system so badly that they inspired Congress to pass FATCA with both Democratic and Republican support.