11 ms·

Brexit wins. An illusion dies

129 points by youngtaff 10y ago

kfk 10y ago
It is amazing how we have been enjoying healthy growth and improvements everywhere in the last 100 years and people still think there is something to fight against "neoliberism". You don't trust a system where multiple agents are free to decide with capitalism, but you think everything will be solved with 1 agent ruling them all with a super Leviathan state. He doesn't want to be compared to fascists, but that's exactly along the lines a fascist would think. I don't know, personally, I am going to try and get German citizenship, at least those guys are somewhat reliable and don't do pointless referendums (because you think something is going to change? No, all will stay exactly the same, but at least you can feel happy at the thought of not being a EU state, I guess).
- krzrak 10y ago
  Sometimes not being an EU state is not something to be happy about. For example now Poland is being taken over by right-wing party, which reduces citizen rights, violates constitution, oppresses minorities, removes the separation of the state and church. There are voices that we should leave the EU. But European Union and its framework is the only institution that from time to time keeps them at bay. When we leave EU, we are lost, the regime will be able to do anything.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    It only took 30 years for Poland to forget the most expensive lessons that were ever learned. I really hope it will end well but there is a good chance that it will not. Polish politics has been quite strange in the last 5 years or so.
    - krzrak 10y ago
      Yeah, the sad truth is that people mostly forgotten how it was under communist rule and now they are pushing their country into the hands of other authoritarian politicians.
      - daemin 10y ago
        It's also disheartening to see how authoritarian supposedly free market countries are becoming, one's that have never been under the control of authoritarian communism.
  - ManlyBread 10y ago
    >Poland is being taken over by right-wing party Funny, two years ago everyone here was calling them a left-wing party. >reduces citizen rights, violates constitution They haven't done anything that the previous party didn't, but since the previous party lost this election the very same people who did it for the previous 8 years suddenly act like they have the moral high ground. >oppresses minorities Not wanting uncontrolled immigration is not "oppressing minorities". >removes the separation of the state and church This has never been as severe as people like to claim, even back in 2006.
    - toyg 10y ago
      > Not wanting uncontrolled immigration So you don't want what your country benefited dramatically from in the last 15 years, when Polish people moved to UK to work, sending home additional capital and reducing demographic pressure. I apologize if this sounds inflammatory, it's not meant to but: it is, objectively, a very hypocritical position.
      - ManlyBread 10y ago
        That was in regards to the immigrants that Merkel tried to push on us.
        gambiting 10y ago
        The EU parliment had a meeting where basically what was said was "this is a huge issue, everyone should help by taking some" and then Polish government decided to get on a high horse and not accept anyone. It flies directly in the face of united Europe and I really hate what they(the government) are doing.
        ManlyBread 10y ago
        Are you really surprised that the when there are so many reports about immigrants causing problems for the countries that take them in? No one here wants an another Cologne. And I find it really amusing that you talk about "united Europe" in the context of non-European immigrants. It is not okay for one country to cause a huge wave of immigration and then basically going "we can't take these people in so you have to and do it unconditionally" - which only encourages even more immigration.
  - mamon 10y ago
    >> " right-wing party, which reduces citizen rights, violates constitution, oppresses minorities, removes the separation of the state and church." These are just big fat lies that are being spread by the politicians that lost last elections. None of this is actualy happening in Poland. Minorities are just fine, no action has been taken against any of them, citizen rights are in fact better than in most EU countries (no "political correctness") and the separation of church and state is ensured by the fact that 90% of Polish citizens don't treat their religion seriously anyway. The one thing that makes some sense is accusation of constitution violation, but this has more to do with the fact that Polish constitution is poorly written than with any actions of PiS. And, as a side note, PiS (ruling party in Poland) is of left-wing, socialist affiliation:)
    - Kristine1975 10y ago
      Wikipedia sez: Law and Justice, abbreviated to PiS, is a right-wing national-conservative political party in Poland.
    - TheTrotters 10y ago
      The constitutional crisis has everything to do with the actions of PiS. They deliberately disregarded previous ruling of the CT, and President Duda refused to swear in three judges correctly elected by the Parliament. Zbigniew Ziobro, the Minister of Justice, also serves as the Attorney General and under the new law he can interfere with the work of District Attorneys (he can essentially stop any prosecutorial case if he wishes to do so). This is an enormous threat to citizen's rights. The new government has already made several decisions which help the Catholic Church. The most important one concerns the sale of the farmland, which will benefit the church financially. On top of that there's the increase in taxation and a massive spending increase on welfare, but I suppose that's just run-of-the-mill fiscal irresponsibility.
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  - MustardTiger 10y ago
    Repeating globalist lies in a one sided slander against the majority of the people is not going to help your cause.
  - lgieron 10y ago
    > reduces citizen rights, violates constitution, oppresses minorities, removes the separation of the state and church Can you give example of these (except the "violates constitution", which in itself is nothing new, consitution was also violated by previous governments)? Which minorities are opressed? Which citizen rights are reduced? How the separation of state and church is removed? I live in Poland and am seriously confused by your post.
- stuaxo 10y ago
  The irony is that outside the EU, the UK will probably become much more neoliberal.
- realusername 10y ago
  In the last 100 years yes, there is no debate on this. However, since the mid-80s / 90s, the middle class has been completely crushed to a no return point (in most developed countries, not only the UK) and pretending the system is still working is at best dishonest. We are not even in a financial crisis right now but the system never recovered at all from 2008, in almost 10 years now. I can only guess what will happen on the next crisis... Having a jobless society where all the stability and balance of power is based on jobs is obviously not working very well at the moment.
  - roel_v 10y ago
    But that has nothing to do with the EU! It's a global trend, completely orthogonal, and will manifest itself even stronger in a Britain outside of the EU! This is the tragedy about this whole ordeal - it's those that have voted 'leave' with the most conviction that will be hit hardest by the consequences, because they can not discern macro trends that are and are not caused and/or influenced by the Parliament and Commission.
    - humanrebar 10y ago
      > It's a global trend, completely orthogonal Maybe. Maybe not. Developed countries have been largely centralizing power over the last twenty years. It's possible that has effects on the middle class. So Brexit could be a particular reaction to that.
    - MustardTiger 10y ago
      It has everything to do with the EU. It is globalism that has caused this, and the EU is a massive globalist force, pushing globalist policies on people against their will. A nation having the ability to defend itself against economic warfare is the only way to do anything about it.
      - makomk 10y ago
        You know what's an even bigger globalist force? Technology. Everything from your computer to your car is stuffed full of specialized parts and materials from a huge number of countries, many of which can't be produced locally at all or require factories that are economically infeasible without a global market. Saying no to globalism is also saying no to almost all the technological advances of the past few decades.
- noelwelsh 10y ago
  It's amazing that you think the economic improvements of the last 100 years are purely attributable to neoliberalism, a term which only acquired its current meaning around the 1980s.
- tootie 10y ago
  The neoliberals bash Keynes saying he advocates busy work to stimulate the ecomony, yes these guys are advocating artificial market inefficiency to stimulate the economy.
- AlexandrB 10y ago
  I think what people are missing is that the result of income inequality is not "more poor people" but more people who feel disenfranchised and left out, even if they're objectively better off than they were before. This is the end result of that. Globalization has been great for economic growth but in developed nations the benefit has disproportionately gone to the top 5%. Now the other 95% are restless and willing to vote for whomever promises them puppies and unicorns since existing leadership has failed to deliver.
simplyinfinity 10y ago
AFAIK, Brexit has won the votes, but that doesn't mean it will happen. >Referendums are not legally binding, so legally the Government can ignore the results; for example, even if the result of a pre-legislative referendum were a majority of "No" for a proposed law, Parliament could pass it anyway, because parliament is sovereign.[0] [0]: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdo...
- stuaxo 10y ago
  It would be electoral suicide for a government not to follow through with this though.
  - simplyinfinity 10y ago
    I think it won't be, the margins are too close, only 2% or so. so basically you are ignoring 48% of the people over 52% of the people... if it was something like 30/70 that would be suicide
    - ManlyBread 10y ago
      You're ignoring the fact that among these 48% there are people who strongly believe in democracy and if you undermine that you suddenly can have the 30/70 scenario you're talking about.
      - chii 10y ago
        many people only consider it undemocratic when it's working against their point of view. The 48% would not argue against their own point of view with democracy, when it clearly benefits them!
    - ozim 10y ago
      I second that, difference is too small and I don't know what the attendance was. Was it 100% of people who can vote voted?
digi_owl 10y ago
Frankly to get a grips with it all it may be best to split both the left and the right in two. Social left and worker left. traditionalist right and financial right. EU has been a boon for financial right, by flagging it as a project for european peace and understanding to the social left. But this has alienated social left from worker left, who they were close allies with after WW2. So instead the worker left has teamed up with traditionalist right, who share their distrust of EU but for different reasons.
- Singletoned 10y ago
  You may have already seen it, but the 4 sections you describe are very similar to this: https://www.politicalcompass.org/ https://www.politicalcompass.org/ The basic idea is that there are two axises, not one (social and financial).
  - carapat_virulat 10y ago
    I think those kinds of plots only make sense when you lay more or less in the middle. A political position is not just how you position yourself in an objective predeterminate political space but also how you define that political space.
    - digi_owl 10y ago
      Like how most of what is seen as right wing in the European nations, is seen as left wing in USA?
  - lucozade 10y ago
    > The basic idea is that there are two axises, not one (social and financial). Not only this but also the main divide is not left and right but liberal and conservative. In the UK, what I see most often is a divide between socially liberal but fiscally conservative and those that are socially conservative but fiscally liberal. In my view, it's why early New Labour was successful (socially liberal but fiscally conservative) then lost it by loosening up fiscally and going to war. Similarly, UKIP has been equally effective in taking support from blue collar workers on both left and right because they push a socially conservative, fiscally liberal agenda. It's not the whole story. SNP have used national identity well although, interestingly their actual policies are more in keeping with this split than their rhetoric. The EU referendum debate seems to be almost perfectly along a line between fiscally conservative and socially conservative. I foresee political parties changing much more this way over the next few years.
ry_ry 10y ago
If the UK ceases to exist I wonder if England would be permitted to rejoin the EU at some point?
- jacquesm 10y ago
  That would be some pretty tough negotiations. Probably better for England to apply to become a territory of the US.
  - prodmerc 10y ago
    That would be just a bit humiliating though... never gonna happen (but you never know either, hmm)
    - petercooper 10y ago
      Minor discussions did once occur.. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wilson-wanted-uk-to-be-us-state-1075874.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wilson-wanted-uk-to-be-us-...
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- ddebernardy 10y ago
  They could if existing members all agree to it, but it's doubtful England would get anything close to the plethora of exceptions and special provisions that the UK got. Seeing the long history of UK-related pain points, it's a miracle that the EU hadn't kicked them out long ago. If/when they'll come back, they'll do so with a tail in between the legs: all rules will apply, no ifs no buts, no exceptions, and no special treatments.
- lucozade 10y ago
  Apparently, Nicola Sturgeon has been in contact with Sadiq Khan. If you're going to upset the status quo you might as well do it in style. If Scotland and London secedes, I'd vote for it. Unfortunately I think the EU would welcome Scotland but not sure about London.
boost_ 10y ago
troll? you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
- dang 10y ago
  This comment breaks the HN guidelines. Please (re)-read and follow them from now on. That means posting civilly and substantively, or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11968742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11968742 and marked it off-topic.
jacquesm 10y ago
> A large section of the working class, concentrated in towns and cities that have been quietly devastated by free-market economics, decided they’d had enough. As if if the UK had not been an EU member the last 30 years the situation would have been better. At least so far they had some advantages (presence of the financial district, easy access to a large market), those will disappear too. The end result could very well be a much worse situation for those voting 'leave' when the ones voting 'remain' will see a relatively small effect.
- intended 10y ago
  It will most definitely be worse. The phyrric victory possible here is that Brexit leads the way for other exits, sundering the EU resulting in worse economies everywhere.
anonyfox 10y ago
As an european I think the Brexit is actually beneficial for us in the middle/longterm. - International companies will move from GB to ireland/continent, germany is in a good position to capture the financial industry (Frankfurt), Berlin already is a great startup hub. - the brexit is a strong signal for the other EU states to get their shit together and fix obvious problems. - its in the interest of all EU states to be as hard as possible when negotiating with britain and outright damage them when possible. No politican will say this loud, though, but it will happen. "Out is out". Harsh consequences will make other states think twice before considering an exit, too. thus, stability. - The british economy will collapse completely, they are by far not that important globally. The pound already goes down dramatically, trade partners have been EU states mostly who will get doctrined from brussels to punish GB. We do not need anything that must be imported from the UK. Short-term EU companies operating on GB will suffer, though. But this will be overshadowed through the international focus on continental europe instead of UK/London after a while. - the US already said that the UK isn't very important and are not very eager to make deals separately. And we do no longer have to deal with "special care" for british wishes, which often are the cause of endless discussions and bureaucracy. - Scotland and n.Ireland may "exit" the UK, further minorizing the role of the UK in the world. Might be possible that they join the EU independently. So all in all, this may be good news for the EU, even when we sacrifice a generation of UK citizens for our benefit. Maybe in a few decades a demolished, isolated england will try to get into the EU again. Still, it makes me said, since I really enjoyed my stays in London and would prefer a big, strong, united europe.
- prodmerc 10y ago
  Yes, I also think this is a chance to strengthen the rest of the EU. It may also be a start of countries leaving, but if the rest of the EU comes together and says "hey, we need to double down on this or else what the hell are we even doing" they may do the former. Which is a good thing imo, but a lot of people don't think so... The UK imports a lot of stuff from the mainland, they'll probably end up in the economic area (with all the strings attached) but with no say in the EU... maybe don't let the masses vote next time heh
- Kristine1975 10y ago
paulgrimes1 10y ago
I'm from Ireland. The potential reinstating of "the border" in the north of Ireland, effectively rebuilding a physical wall based on the outcome of this brexit, is a concern. The psychological effect it will have on Ireland as a people will be tectonic.
- s_kilk 10y ago
  [also Irish, currently living in Scotland] Off the top of your head, what do you think the odds of this turning into a United Ireland would be? Surely both sides of the border would rather unify than go along with this madness? Or am I dreaming?
  - paulgrimes1 10y ago
    I recall having very heated disagreements with a friend years ago; she believed Ireland would unite in our lifetime, I believed the idea itself was too young for anyone to take seriously. Maybe this is the catalyst needed to advance the conversation. A United Ireland in our lifetime would be heart-explodingly amazing; however just as the UK voted Leave, Northern Ireland could well vote Stay.
    - k-mcgrady 10y ago
      >> "Maybe this is the catalyst needed to advance the conversation." I've said this in another comment but I think it is. We now have an issue that will effect all the people in the North and is more important than the usual sectarian divide. If border controls come into place and it starts to effect people's daily lives (e.g. People living in border counties and working on the other side) there's actual a real debate to be had for once. A border poll has already been called for this morning but of course the secretary of state has dismissed it. I think Scotland will need to vote for independence before Ireland has a shot at it.
      - paulgrimes1 10y ago
        Ireland's already independent.. Just perhaps not all of her ;) The sad thing about the possibility of a real debate is that those proposing the unification still have literal blood on their hands. The conversation morphs from those proposing unification to being about those proposing the idea, and how they've been involved in horrific violence not-so-many years ago. The point of the debate is lost in the mire from that point on. I believe it'll take a generation removed of the troubles to be capable of grasping the possibility. But I would LOVE to be proved wrong!
the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
I'm not entirely sure how what is being discussed in the article has anything to do with the EU. Surely that same problem applies in the absence of the EU and its replacement just as much.
TorKlingberg 10y ago
I wonder what this will mean for the London tech scene. A LOT of people there are from other EU countries. I will affect the American giants too. Google and others have big development centres in London where it is easy to attract top talent from around Europe. They could re-focus to Ireland or Germany, but it will be harder to make people move there for a job.
- s_kilk 10y ago
  With any luck they all flee to Dublin or Edinburgh and we get a huge boost while England self-immolates.
  - ianstallings 10y ago
    Why the anger?
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      At a guess because during the referendum for Scottish independence from the UK the line was 'stay because otherwise you'll not be in the EU anymore'. So for the Scots to find themselves out of the EU now by force is probably not what they wanted to wake up to.
    - s_kilk 10y ago
      Personally, because my home (Scotland) is being dragged into this situation against its will. If the English want to destroy themselves they're entitled to do so, but not drag the rest of us down with them.
      - DyslexicAtheist 10y ago
        Wouldn't it be great to have 3 more referendums for Wales, Scotland, Ireland to let them vote once more time? And then have them join the EU separately?
        10y ago
fscherer 10y ago
could anyone elaborate why exactly the referendum was mostly a vote on migration? I myself think that view (which is the basis of the article) is too limited
- jbb555 10y ago
  It wasn't. The press just decided to present it this way. It was a vote on sovereignty of the UK of which control on migration was one small part.
- whamlastxmas 10y ago
  The pro-leaving group supposedly used a lot of anti-immigration sentiment to win over voters. I infer from this that being part of the EU forced immigration upon the UK that the people of the UK did not want. I could be wrong.
duncanawoods 10y ago
I don't see why people are thinking businesses would move. With a weaker pound, a UK office is cheaper to run, investment will go further and exporting UK based products/services to the EU or US will be more competitive. If anything UK might be more attractive for a business. The downsides might be freedom of travel for employment but hopefully there won't be much difference for skilled migrants. I don't believe it would get as hard as the US.
- mhuffman 10y ago
  > I don't see why people are thinking businesses would move. Because of all the fear-mongering and threats from the EU. Think about it, the UK could keep all policies exactly as they are right now, but the EU has threatened to "punish" them because they are not part of the group any more. I do not think the UK is going to restrict movement of skilled immigrants. This will put the EU in the unenviable position of saying to the UK, "We are not going to do business with you because you will not accept our unskilled immigrants!" The market panic is just investor withdrawal until they can see what is going to happen. As soon as the uncertainty passes, and it is obvious that the UK isn't going to rock the boat with "Trump-like" initiatives, the money will come right back.
- jinushaun 10y ago
  No one is saying that foreign businesses and trade will completely disappear from the UK overnight. With Brexit, London is no longer seen as a [english-speaking] doorway to the EU. Foreign companies will more likely prefer Dublin over London. For businesses, it also makes more financial sense to focus more energy on selling their product to an entire continent, instead of a tiny island. They will still have offices in the UK, and trade with the UK, but there is better ROI in trading with the EU.
- markvdb 10y ago
  Any idea how many EU multinational headquarters and logistics centers the UK has, versus Switzerland or Norway? Right... What about financial centers? Make no mistake. This will have a significant impact. Even my small laser cutting service company in Riga, Latvia (<shameless plug>https://lusis.eu</shameless https://lusis.eu</shameless plug>) has to charge non-EU clients extra because of the real barriers exporting outside of the EU.
bawana 10y ago
WOW! GB left the EU and they did not even need to elect a communist party or have Varoufakis mouthing off. Maybe Greece should grow a pair and go now too. Maybe join GB.
- thinkMOAR 10y ago
  Right.... after they refund all the billions from the recent support packages from the EU....
nicotonico 10y ago
It baffles me to say it's negative to be hypocritical in that regard. My position in these cases is simple: I want what's best for me and my people and fuck the rest. Europe has had a history of pointless and toxic altruism that has lead us to this point. Think of the refugee crisis for example. The "all humans are equal regardless of where they were born" and the "please I'd do whatever it takes so people don't label me as a racist" rubbish has ruined our culture.
- toyg 10y ago
  > I want what's best for me and my people and fuck the rest That's the traditional way. It usually leads to war. We're about to relearn some painful lessons in this century.
- AlexandrB 10y ago
  > My position in these cases is simple: I want what's best for me and my people and fuck the rest. Sorry, but this shit right here is what's ruining your culture.
  - ManlyBread 10y ago
    Why? Everyone else is doing the same thing
- dang 10y ago
  We banned this account for serial trolling. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11968956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11968956 and marked it off-topic.
sametmax 10y ago
From a French perspective, I'd like to state again that everybody is talking about the economical EU, but forget it's only one of the side of it. For me the main benefit is that my grand father has a tatoo with a number on his wrist, but my brother is in a loving relationship with a blue-eye blond german. No matter how you slice it, peace is a very nice think too have in an instable world with so many different people living so close to each others.
Tomte 10y ago
While I'm strongly of the opinion that this decision is a bad one for the United Kingdom, and mostly because of the economic havoc just about every expert foresees, we shouldn't forget two things: a) Experts are sometimes wrong. Economic experts are usually wrong. (Personally I think they happen to be right in this case) b) Some Brexit supporters also see the economic risks and accept them, because of democracy, sovereignty etc. pp. And while I'm a pragmatic who would weigh economic consequences heavily, God damn!, I can totally respect that!

129 points by youngtaff 10y ago

kfk 10y ago

It is amazing how we have been enjoying healthy growth and improvements everywhere in the last 100 years and people still think there is something to fight against "neoliberism". You don't trust a system where multiple agents are free to decide with capitalism, but you think everything will be solved with 1 agent ruling them all with a super Leviathan state. He doesn't want to be compared to fascists, but that's exactly along the lines a fascist would think. I don't know, personally, I am going to try and get German citizenship, at least those guys are somewhat reliable and don't do pointless referendums (because you think something is going to change? No, all will stay exactly the same, but at least you can feel happy at the thought of not being a EU state, I guess).

krzrak 10y ago
Sometimes not being an EU state is not something to be happy about. For example now Poland is being taken over by right-wing party, which reduces citizen rights, violates constitution, oppresses minorities, removes the separation of the state and church. There are voices that we should leave the EU. But European Union and its framework is the only institution that from time to time keeps them at bay. When we leave EU, we are lost, the regime will be able to do anything.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  It only took 30 years for Poland to forget the most expensive lessons that were ever learned. I really hope it will end well but there is a good chance that it will not. Polish politics has been quite strange in the last 5 years or so.
  - krzrak 10y ago
    Yeah, the sad truth is that people mostly forgotten how it was under communist rule and now they are pushing their country into the hands of other authoritarian politicians.
    - daemin 10y ago
      It's also disheartening to see how authoritarian supposedly free market countries are becoming, one's that have never been under the control of authoritarian communism.
- ManlyBread 10y ago
  >Poland is being taken over by right-wing party Funny, two years ago everyone here was calling them a left-wing party. >reduces citizen rights, violates constitution They haven't done anything that the previous party didn't, but since the previous party lost this election the very same people who did it for the previous 8 years suddenly act like they have the moral high ground. >oppresses minorities Not wanting uncontrolled immigration is not "oppressing minorities". >removes the separation of the state and church This has never been as severe as people like to claim, even back in 2006.
  - toyg 10y ago
    > Not wanting uncontrolled immigration So you don't want what your country benefited dramatically from in the last 15 years, when Polish people moved to UK to work, sending home additional capital and reducing demographic pressure. I apologize if this sounds inflammatory, it's not meant to but: it is, objectively, a very hypocritical position.
    - ManlyBread 10y ago
      That was in regards to the immigrants that Merkel tried to push on us.
      - gambiting 10y ago
        The EU parliment had a meeting where basically what was said was "this is a huge issue, everyone should help by taking some" and then Polish government decided to get on a high horse and not accept anyone. It flies directly in the face of united Europe and I really hate what they(the government) are doing.
        ManlyBread 10y ago
        Are you really surprised that the when there are so many reports about immigrants causing problems for the countries that take them in? No one here wants an another Cologne. And I find it really amusing that you talk about "united Europe" in the context of non-European immigrants. It is not okay for one country to cause a huge wave of immigration and then basically going "we can't take these people in so you have to and do it unconditionally" - which only encourages even more immigration.
- mamon 10y ago
  >> " right-wing party, which reduces citizen rights, violates constitution, oppresses minorities, removes the separation of the state and church." These are just big fat lies that are being spread by the politicians that lost last elections. None of this is actualy happening in Poland. Minorities are just fine, no action has been taken against any of them, citizen rights are in fact better than in most EU countries (no "political correctness") and the separation of church and state is ensured by the fact that 90% of Polish citizens don't treat their religion seriously anyway. The one thing that makes some sense is accusation of constitution violation, but this has more to do with the fact that Polish constitution is poorly written than with any actions of PiS. And, as a side note, PiS (ruling party in Poland) is of left-wing, socialist affiliation:)
  - Kristine1975 10y ago
    Wikipedia sez: Law and Justice, abbreviated to PiS, is a right-wing national-conservative political party in Poland.
  - TheTrotters 10y ago
    The constitutional crisis has everything to do with the actions of PiS. They deliberately disregarded previous ruling of the CT, and President Duda refused to swear in three judges correctly elected by the Parliament. Zbigniew Ziobro, the Minister of Justice, also serves as the Attorney General and under the new law he can interfere with the work of District Attorneys (he can essentially stop any prosecutorial case if he wishes to do so). This is an enormous threat to citizen's rights. The new government has already made several decisions which help the Catholic Church. The most important one concerns the sale of the farmland, which will benefit the church financially. On top of that there's the increase in taxation and a massive spending increase on welfare, but I suppose that's just run-of-the-mill fiscal irresponsibility.
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- MustardTiger 10y ago
  Repeating globalist lies in a one sided slander against the majority of the people is not going to help your cause.
- lgieron 10y ago
  > reduces citizen rights, violates constitution, oppresses minorities, removes the separation of the state and church Can you give example of these (except the "violates constitution", which in itself is nothing new, consitution was also violated by previous governments)? Which minorities are opressed? Which citizen rights are reduced? How the separation of state and church is removed? I live in Poland and am seriously confused by your post.
stuaxo 10y ago
The irony is that outside the EU, the UK will probably become much more neoliberal.
realusername 10y ago
In the last 100 years yes, there is no debate on this. However, since the mid-80s / 90s, the middle class has been completely crushed to a no return point (in most developed countries, not only the UK) and pretending the system is still working is at best dishonest. We are not even in a financial crisis right now but the system never recovered at all from 2008, in almost 10 years now. I can only guess what will happen on the next crisis... Having a jobless society where all the stability and balance of power is based on jobs is obviously not working very well at the moment.
- roel_v 10y ago
  But that has nothing to do with the EU! It's a global trend, completely orthogonal, and will manifest itself even stronger in a Britain outside of the EU! This is the tragedy about this whole ordeal - it's those that have voted 'leave' with the most conviction that will be hit hardest by the consequences, because they can not discern macro trends that are and are not caused and/or influenced by the Parliament and Commission.
  - humanrebar 10y ago
    > It's a global trend, completely orthogonal Maybe. Maybe not. Developed countries have been largely centralizing power over the last twenty years. It's possible that has effects on the middle class. So Brexit could be a particular reaction to that.
  - MustardTiger 10y ago
    It has everything to do with the EU. It is globalism that has caused this, and the EU is a massive globalist force, pushing globalist policies on people against their will. A nation having the ability to defend itself against economic warfare is the only way to do anything about it.
    - makomk 10y ago
      You know what's an even bigger globalist force? Technology. Everything from your computer to your car is stuffed full of specialized parts and materials from a huge number of countries, many of which can't be produced locally at all or require factories that are economically infeasible without a global market. Saying no to globalism is also saying no to almost all the technological advances of the past few decades.
noelwelsh 10y ago
It's amazing that you think the economic improvements of the last 100 years are purely attributable to neoliberalism, a term which only acquired its current meaning around the 1980s.
tootie 10y ago
The neoliberals bash Keynes saying he advocates busy work to stimulate the ecomony, yes these guys are advocating artificial market inefficiency to stimulate the economy.
AlexandrB 10y ago
I think what people are missing is that the result of income inequality is not "more poor people" but more people who feel disenfranchised and left out, even if they're objectively better off than they were before. This is the end result of that. Globalization has been great for economic growth but in developed nations the benefit has disproportionately gone to the top 5%. Now the other 95% are restless and willing to vote for whomever promises them puppies and unicorns since existing leadership has failed to deliver.

simplyinfinity 10y ago

AFAIK, Brexit has won the votes, but that doesn't mean it will happen. >Referendums are not legally binding, so legally the Government can ignore the results; for example, even if the result of a pre-legislative referendum were a majority of "No" for a proposed law, Parliament could pass it anyway, because parliament is sovereign.[0] [0]: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdo...

stuaxo 10y ago
It would be electoral suicide for a government not to follow through with this though.
- simplyinfinity 10y ago
  I think it won't be, the margins are too close, only 2% or so. so basically you are ignoring 48% of the people over 52% of the people... if it was something like 30/70 that would be suicide
  - ManlyBread 10y ago
    You're ignoring the fact that among these 48% there are people who strongly believe in democracy and if you undermine that you suddenly can have the 30/70 scenario you're talking about.
    - chii 10y ago
      many people only consider it undemocratic when it's working against their point of view. The 48% would not argue against their own point of view with democracy, when it clearly benefits them!
  - ozim 10y ago
    I second that, difference is too small and I don't know what the attendance was. Was it 100% of people who can vote voted?

digi_owl 10y ago

Frankly to get a grips with it all it may be best to split both the left and the right in two. Social left and worker left. traditionalist right and financial right. EU has been a boon for financial right, by flagging it as a project for european peace and understanding to the social left. But this has alienated social left from worker left, who they were close allies with after WW2. So instead the worker left has teamed up with traditionalist right, who share their distrust of EU but for different reasons.

Singletoned 10y ago
You may have already seen it, but the 4 sections you describe are very similar to this: https://www.politicalcompass.org/ https://www.politicalcompass.org/ The basic idea is that there are two axises, not one (social and financial).
- carapat_virulat 10y ago
  I think those kinds of plots only make sense when you lay more or less in the middle. A political position is not just how you position yourself in an objective predeterminate political space but also how you define that political space.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    Like how most of what is seen as right wing in the European nations, is seen as left wing in USA?
- lucozade 10y ago
  > The basic idea is that there are two axises, not one (social and financial). Not only this but also the main divide is not left and right but liberal and conservative. In the UK, what I see most often is a divide between socially liberal but fiscally conservative and those that are socially conservative but fiscally liberal. In my view, it's why early New Labour was successful (socially liberal but fiscally conservative) then lost it by loosening up fiscally and going to war. Similarly, UKIP has been equally effective in taking support from blue collar workers on both left and right because they push a socially conservative, fiscally liberal agenda. It's not the whole story. SNP have used national identity well although, interestingly their actual policies are more in keeping with this split than their rhetoric. The EU referendum debate seems to be almost perfectly along a line between fiscally conservative and socially conservative. I foresee political parties changing much more this way over the next few years.

ry_ry 10y ago

If the UK ceases to exist I wonder if England would be permitted to rejoin the EU at some point?

jacquesm 10y ago
That would be some pretty tough negotiations. Probably better for England to apply to become a territory of the US.
- prodmerc 10y ago
  That would be just a bit humiliating though... never gonna happen (but you never know either, hmm)
  - petercooper 10y ago
    Minor discussions did once occur.. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wilson-wanted-uk-to-be-us-state-1075874.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wilson-wanted-uk-to-be-us-...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
ddebernardy 10y ago
They could if existing members all agree to it, but it's doubtful England would get anything close to the plethora of exceptions and special provisions that the UK got. Seeing the long history of UK-related pain points, it's a miracle that the EU hadn't kicked them out long ago. If/when they'll come back, they'll do so with a tail in between the legs: all rules will apply, no ifs no buts, no exceptions, and no special treatments.
lucozade 10y ago
Apparently, Nicola Sturgeon has been in contact with Sadiq Khan. If you're going to upset the status quo you might as well do it in style. If Scotland and London secedes, I'd vote for it. Unfortunately I think the EU would welcome Scotland but not sure about London.

boost_ 10y ago

troll? you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

dang 10y ago
This comment breaks the HN guidelines. Please (re)-read and follow them from now on. That means posting civilly and substantively, or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11968742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11968742 and marked it off-topic.

jacquesm 10y ago

> A large section of the working class, concentrated in towns and cities that have been quietly devastated by free-market economics, decided they’d had enough. As if if the UK had not been an EU member the last 30 years the situation would have been better. At least so far they had some advantages (presence of the financial district, easy access to a large market), those will disappear too. The end result could very well be a much worse situation for those voting 'leave' when the ones voting 'remain' will see a relatively small effect.

intended 10y ago
It will most definitely be worse. The phyrric victory possible here is that Brexit leads the way for other exits, sundering the EU resulting in worse economies everywhere.

anonyfox 10y ago

As an european I think the Brexit is actually beneficial for us in the middle/longterm. - International companies will move from GB to ireland/continent, germany is in a good position to capture the financial industry (Frankfurt), Berlin already is a great startup hub. - the brexit is a strong signal for the other EU states to get their shit together and fix obvious problems. - its in the interest of all EU states to be as hard as possible when negotiating with britain and outright damage them when possible. No politican will say this loud, though, but it will happen. "Out is out". Harsh consequences will make other states think twice before considering an exit, too. thus, stability. - The british economy will collapse completely, they are by far not that important globally. The pound already goes down dramatically, trade partners have been EU states mostly who will get doctrined from brussels to punish GB. We do not need anything that must be imported from the UK. Short-term EU companies operating on GB will suffer, though. But this will be overshadowed through the international focus on continental europe instead of UK/London after a while. - the US already said that the UK isn't very important and are not very eager to make deals separately. And we do no longer have to deal with "special care" for british wishes, which often are the cause of endless discussions and bureaucracy. - Scotland and n.Ireland may "exit" the UK, further minorizing the role of the UK in the world. Might be possible that they join the EU independently. So all in all, this may be good news for the EU, even when we sacrifice a generation of UK citizens for our benefit. Maybe in a few decades a demolished, isolated england will try to get into the EU again. Still, it makes me said, since I really enjoyed my stays in London and would prefer a big, strong, united europe.

prodmerc 10y ago
Yes, I also think this is a chance to strengthen the rest of the EU. It may also be a start of countries leaving, but if the rest of the EU comes together and says "hey, we need to double down on this or else what the hell are we even doing" they may do the former. Which is a good thing imo, but a lot of people don't think so... The UK imports a lot of stuff from the mainland, they'll probably end up in the economic area (with all the strings attached) but with no say in the EU... maybe don't let the masses vote next time heh
Kristine1975 10y ago

paulgrimes1 10y ago

I'm from Ireland. The potential reinstating of "the border" in the north of Ireland, effectively rebuilding a physical wall based on the outcome of this brexit, is a concern. The psychological effect it will have on Ireland as a people will be tectonic.

s_kilk 10y ago
[also Irish, currently living in Scotland] Off the top of your head, what do you think the odds of this turning into a United Ireland would be? Surely both sides of the border would rather unify than go along with this madness? Or am I dreaming?
- paulgrimes1 10y ago
  I recall having very heated disagreements with a friend years ago; she believed Ireland would unite in our lifetime, I believed the idea itself was too young for anyone to take seriously. Maybe this is the catalyst needed to advance the conversation. A United Ireland in our lifetime would be heart-explodingly amazing; however just as the UK voted Leave, Northern Ireland could well vote Stay.
  - k-mcgrady 10y ago
    >> "Maybe this is the catalyst needed to advance the conversation." I've said this in another comment but I think it is. We now have an issue that will effect all the people in the North and is more important than the usual sectarian divide. If border controls come into place and it starts to effect people's daily lives (e.g. People living in border counties and working on the other side) there's actual a real debate to be had for once. A border poll has already been called for this morning but of course the secretary of state has dismissed it. I think Scotland will need to vote for independence before Ireland has a shot at it.
    - paulgrimes1 10y ago
      Ireland's already independent.. Just perhaps not all of her ;) The sad thing about the possibility of a real debate is that those proposing the unification still have literal blood on their hands. The conversation morphs from those proposing unification to being about those proposing the idea, and how they've been involved in horrific violence not-so-many years ago. The point of the debate is lost in the mire from that point on. I believe it'll take a generation removed of the troubles to be capable of grasping the possibility. But I would LOVE to be proved wrong!

the_mitsuhiko 10y ago

I'm not entirely sure how what is being discussed in the article has anything to do with the EU. Surely that same problem applies in the absence of the EU and its replacement just as much.

TorKlingberg 10y ago

I wonder what this will mean for the London tech scene. A LOT of people there are from other EU countries. I will affect the American giants too. Google and others have big development centres in London where it is easy to attract top talent from around Europe. They could re-focus to Ireland or Germany, but it will be harder to make people move there for a job.

s_kilk 10y ago
With any luck they all flee to Dublin or Edinburgh and we get a huge boost while England self-immolates.
- ianstallings 10y ago
  Why the anger?
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    At a guess because during the referendum for Scottish independence from the UK the line was 'stay because otherwise you'll not be in the EU anymore'. So for the Scots to find themselves out of the EU now by force is probably not what they wanted to wake up to.
  - s_kilk 10y ago
    Personally, because my home (Scotland) is being dragged into this situation against its will. If the English want to destroy themselves they're entitled to do so, but not drag the rest of us down with them.
    - DyslexicAtheist 10y ago
      Wouldn't it be great to have 3 more referendums for Wales, Scotland, Ireland to let them vote once more time? And then have them join the EU separately?
      - 10y ago

fscherer 10y ago

could anyone elaborate why exactly the referendum was mostly a vote on migration? I myself think that view (which is the basis of the article) is too limited

jbb555 10y ago
It wasn't. The press just decided to present it this way. It was a vote on sovereignty of the UK of which control on migration was one small part.
whamlastxmas 10y ago
The pro-leaving group supposedly used a lot of anti-immigration sentiment to win over voters. I infer from this that being part of the EU forced immigration upon the UK that the people of the UK did not want. I could be wrong.

duncanawoods 10y ago

I don't see why people are thinking businesses would move. With a weaker pound, a UK office is cheaper to run, investment will go further and exporting UK based products/services to the EU or US will be more competitive. If anything UK might be more attractive for a business. The downsides might be freedom of travel for employment but hopefully there won't be much difference for skilled migrants. I don't believe it would get as hard as the US.

mhuffman 10y ago
> I don't see why people are thinking businesses would move. Because of all the fear-mongering and threats from the EU. Think about it, the UK could keep all policies exactly as they are right now, but the EU has threatened to "punish" them because they are not part of the group any more. I do not think the UK is going to restrict movement of skilled immigrants. This will put the EU in the unenviable position of saying to the UK, "We are not going to do business with you because you will not accept our unskilled immigrants!" The market panic is just investor withdrawal until they can see what is going to happen. As soon as the uncertainty passes, and it is obvious that the UK isn't going to rock the boat with "Trump-like" initiatives, the money will come right back.
jinushaun 10y ago
No one is saying that foreign businesses and trade will completely disappear from the UK overnight. With Brexit, London is no longer seen as a [english-speaking] doorway to the EU. Foreign companies will more likely prefer Dublin over London. For businesses, it also makes more financial sense to focus more energy on selling their product to an entire continent, instead of a tiny island. They will still have offices in the UK, and trade with the UK, but there is better ROI in trading with the EU.
markvdb 10y ago
Any idea how many EU multinational headquarters and logistics centers the UK has, versus Switzerland or Norway? Right... What about financial centers? Make no mistake. This will have a significant impact. Even my small laser cutting service company in Riga, Latvia (<shameless plug>https://lusis.eu</shameless https://lusis.eu</shameless plug>) has to charge non-EU clients extra because of the real barriers exporting outside of the EU.

bawana 10y ago

WOW! GB left the EU and they did not even need to elect a communist party or have Varoufakis mouthing off. Maybe Greece should grow a pair and go now too. Maybe join GB.

thinkMOAR 10y ago
Right.... after they refund all the billions from the recent support packages from the EU....

nicotonico 10y ago

It baffles me to say it's negative to be hypocritical in that regard. My position in these cases is simple: I want what's best for me and my people and fuck the rest. Europe has had a history of pointless and toxic altruism that has lead us to this point. Think of the refugee crisis for example. The "all humans are equal regardless of where they were born" and the "please I'd do whatever it takes so people don't label me as a racist" rubbish has ruined our culture.

toyg 10y ago
> I want what's best for me and my people and fuck the rest That's the traditional way. It usually leads to war. We're about to relearn some painful lessons in this century.
AlexandrB 10y ago
> My position in these cases is simple: I want what's best for me and my people and fuck the rest. Sorry, but this shit right here is what's ruining your culture.
- ManlyBread 10y ago
  Why? Everyone else is doing the same thing
dang 10y ago
We banned this account for serial trolling. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11968956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11968956 and marked it off-topic.

sametmax 10y ago

From a French perspective, I'd like to state again that everybody is talking about the economical EU, but forget it's only one of the side of it. For me the main benefit is that my grand father has a tatoo with a number on his wrist, but my brother is in a loving relationship with a blue-eye blond german. No matter how you slice it, peace is a very nice think too have in an instable world with so many different people living so close to each others.

Tomte 10y ago

While I'm strongly of the opinion that this decision is a bad one for the United Kingdom, and mostly because of the economic havoc just about every expert foresees, we shouldn't forget two things: a) Experts are sometimes wrong. Economic experts are usually wrong. (Personally I think they happen to be right in this case) b) Some Brexit supporters also see the economic risks and accept them, because of democracy, sovereignty etc. pp. And while I'm a pragmatic who would weigh economic consequences heavily, God damn!, I can totally respect that!