10 ms·

I just watched his talk. He lost. He fought that he can avoid crack in his party and anti-eu members will be pleased if he make this move - referendum. Then he

by lossolo 10y ago

I just watched his talk. He lost. He fought that he can avoid crack in his party and anti-eu members will be pleased if he make this move - referendum. Then he thought he will get what he wants from EU and then all citizens will vote remain. He was wrong on all this points. He is the biggest looser in this situation and he really knows it.

berkut 10y ago
And he agreed to this to get UKIP votes in last year's election. Admittedly the pressure was building from UKIP (and eurosceptic tories), but this is very unlikely to be in Britain's interests IMO.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Labour voters voted predominantly to to leave in this referendum more so than the conservatives.
  - berkut 10y ago
    That explains the result of the referendum, not the agreeing to it in the first place.
    - m_mueller 10y ago
      As a Swiss this argument kind of baffles me. Governing according to the people's will should be the norm in a democracy, not some kind of strategic play.
      - SmellyGeekBoy 10y ago
        Exactly. If the majority want out then we should come out - and I say that as a Remain voter. Really interested to see what the future has in store. Thankfully us tech people should weather it better than most.
      - raverbashing 10y ago
        Yes. Because you're thinking like a Swiss Especially thinking that all decisions will be calm, collected and will result from evaluation of all sides Most people will base a vote on false facts, spite and stuff like "following their heart"
        rjsw 10y ago
        I suspect that a country has to have referendums fairly often for them to work as intended. One problem in the UK was that people were answering different questions to the one asked.
        DanBC 10y ago
        ...and basing their answers on blatant lies. (EG We can spend some of the £350m per week on NHS.)
        arethuza 10y ago
        I can see some nasty cutbacks to things like the NHS coming - ideologically motivated but justified by our self inflicted forthcoming recession.
        sievebrain 10y ago
        How is that a "blatant lie"? Does that money go to the EU? Yes. Would that money be freed up for other uses? Yes. Would some of it end up being reallocated to the NHS? Very likely, given the politics of the UK. If you'd said ALL of it WILL go on the NHS then you'd be right, but you aren't arguing with that statement.
        raverbashing 10y ago
        http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2016/may/23/does-the-eu-really-cost-the-uk-350m-a-week http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2016/may/2... Oh and by the way even Nigel Farage has said it's not like that http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-nigel-farage-nhs-pledge-disowns-350-million-pounds-a7099906.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-...
      - creshal 10y ago
        Gerrymandering and other shady crap are still commonplace.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - kimi 10y ago
        And sometimes inconvenient, eg Feb 9th.
  - aidos 10y ago
    What's the source for that? Not challenging you but I'd be interested to see a party breakdown.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      The Labour party heartlands in England and Wales voted pretty much unanimously in favor to leave. Jeremy Corbyn is already taking flak for this outcome: http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/24northnational/Labour-inquest-begins-after-heartland-areas-vote-strongly-for-Brexit-0687c608-5f48-4c80-bea9-0cb653266f13-ds http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/24northnational/Labour-inq... https://next.ft.com/content/a035f3d2-39c4-11e6-a780-b48ed7b6126f https://next.ft.com/content/a035f3d2-39c4-11e6-a780-b48ed7b6... http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-blamed-for-brexit-by-labour-mps-in-eu-referendum_uk_576c6cfee4b0232d331da41b http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-blamed-f...
      - newjersey 10y ago
        This is ridiculous. London and Scotland overwhelmingly voted to stay. I have no love for labour after the alternate vote referendum but anyone who blames this on labour is clearly trying to rewrite history for scumbag David Cameron.
        matthewmacleod 10y ago
        I'm no defender of Cameron, but the Labour party in the UK have absolutely failed – both recently and during their last period in government – to engage with long-term problems of identity, especially in the north of England. A huge number of traditionally Labour-voting areas have opted to leave the EU, and the party have to bear some responsibility for that.
        mlnox 10y ago
        I'm not sure you can characterise Scotland as Labour anymore. Largest party in the Scottish parliament are SNP, second largest Conservative, Labour are a measly third place. As much as London is Labour supporting it's only a very small part of their supporter base, their traditional heartlands are Wales and the North of the UK, both of which overwhelmingly voted to leave.
sz4kerto 10y ago
> He is the biggest looser in this situation Except he isn't, really -- he loses his political position, but he and his family won't be existentially affected by what's going to happen, as opposed to probably tens of millions of people all around Europe.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dragonmum 10y ago
  The EU's common agricultural policy was actively favoring and subsidizing large EU based multinationals and blocking entry into the market by small scale farmers and producers in developing countries. Seems to me like a huge new market called "the UK" just opened up for genuine and fair trade. So overall, this is probably good for hundreds of millions of people around the world.
  - viraptor 10y ago
    The policies don't have to change. It's not like the UK severs all the connections with everyone. Multinationals will stay and ensure the new policies and trade treaties allow them to continue.
  - ivan_gammel 10y ago
    Isn't UK going to protect its own businesses and jobs? Not everyone is pro-trade in Leave camp, afaik.
    - tonyedgecombe 10y ago
      Yes, the UK still grows half it's own food, those businesses will be lobbying hard.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago
    At last UK farmers can sell their top quality fruit and vegetables to the rest of the world.
actuator 10y ago
With emerging talk of Irish unification and Scottish independence after the referendum, some legacy he is going to leave behind.
- tehwalrus 10y ago
  Irish unification would be a silver lining to this awfulness.
  - anonymousDan 10y ago
    As someone from Ireland I'm really not sure I could be bothered dealing with all the shit that could entail. Would prefer if they just went independent and joined the EU as a separate country.
    - matthewmacleod 10y ago
      Unfortunately Northern Ireland doesn't have the economy or infrastructure to realistically function as an independent state at this point. You never know about the future, but it's likely not on the table any time soon.
      - lostlogin 10y ago
        Which is ironic given how long foreign rule has had to sort the place out.
        hardlianotion 10y ago
        Not really. Northern Ireland is quite small.
      - Grishnakh 10y ago
        Why does it need to be large to function independently? There are a bunch of far smaller nations in the EU/Europe: Luxembourg, Andorra, San Marino, Liechtenstein, etc. If Northern Ireland became independent, it could just join the EU (regular Ireland is also an EU member), so they wouldn't have to maintain their own currency at least, and would benefit from the free trade. If Luxembourg can function as it is, I don't see why Northern Ireland can't do the same.

by lossolo 10y ago

berkut 10y ago

And he agreed to this to get UKIP votes in last year's election. Admittedly the pressure was building from UKIP (and eurosceptic tories), but this is very unlikely to be in Britain's interests IMO.

dogma1138 10y ago
Labour voters voted predominantly to to leave in this referendum more so than the conservatives.
- berkut 10y ago
  That explains the result of the referendum, not the agreeing to it in the first place.
  - m_mueller 10y ago
    As a Swiss this argument kind of baffles me. Governing according to the people's will should be the norm in a democracy, not some kind of strategic play.
    - SmellyGeekBoy 10y ago
      Exactly. If the majority want out then we should come out - and I say that as a Remain voter. Really interested to see what the future has in store. Thankfully us tech people should weather it better than most.
    - raverbashing 10y ago
      Yes. Because you're thinking like a Swiss Especially thinking that all decisions will be calm, collected and will result from evaluation of all sides Most people will base a vote on false facts, spite and stuff like "following their heart"
      - rjsw 10y ago
        I suspect that a country has to have referendums fairly often for them to work as intended. One problem in the UK was that people were answering different questions to the one asked.
        DanBC 10y ago
        ...and basing their answers on blatant lies. (EG We can spend some of the £350m per week on NHS.)
        arethuza 10y ago
        I can see some nasty cutbacks to things like the NHS coming - ideologically motivated but justified by our self inflicted forthcoming recession.
        sievebrain 10y ago
        How is that a "blatant lie"? Does that money go to the EU? Yes. Would that money be freed up for other uses? Yes. Would some of it end up being reallocated to the NHS? Very likely, given the politics of the UK. If you'd said ALL of it WILL go on the NHS then you'd be right, but you aren't arguing with that statement.
        raverbashing 10y ago
        http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2016/may/23/does-the-eu-really-cost-the-uk-350m-a-week http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2016/may/2... Oh and by the way even Nigel Farage has said it's not like that http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-nigel-farage-nhs-pledge-disowns-350-million-pounds-a7099906.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-...
    - creshal 10y ago
      Gerrymandering and other shady crap are still commonplace.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - kimi 10y ago
      And sometimes inconvenient, eg Feb 9th.
- aidos 10y ago
  What's the source for that? Not challenging you but I'd be interested to see a party breakdown.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    The Labour party heartlands in England and Wales voted pretty much unanimously in favor to leave. Jeremy Corbyn is already taking flak for this outcome: http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/24northnational/Labour-inquest-begins-after-heartland-areas-vote-strongly-for-Brexit-0687c608-5f48-4c80-bea9-0cb653266f13-ds http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/24northnational/Labour-inq... https://next.ft.com/content/a035f3d2-39c4-11e6-a780-b48ed7b6126f https://next.ft.com/content/a035f3d2-39c4-11e6-a780-b48ed7b6... http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-blamed-for-brexit-by-labour-mps-in-eu-referendum_uk_576c6cfee4b0232d331da41b http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-blamed-f...
    - newjersey 10y ago
      This is ridiculous. London and Scotland overwhelmingly voted to stay. I have no love for labour after the alternate vote referendum but anyone who blames this on labour is clearly trying to rewrite history for scumbag David Cameron.
      - matthewmacleod 10y ago
        I'm no defender of Cameron, but the Labour party in the UK have absolutely failed – both recently and during their last period in government – to engage with long-term problems of identity, especially in the north of England. A huge number of traditionally Labour-voting areas have opted to leave the EU, and the party have to bear some responsibility for that.
      - mlnox 10y ago
        I'm not sure you can characterise Scotland as Labour anymore. Largest party in the Scottish parliament are SNP, second largest Conservative, Labour are a measly third place. As much as London is Labour supporting it's only a very small part of their supporter base, their traditional heartlands are Wales and the North of the UK, both of which overwhelmingly voted to leave.

sz4kerto 10y ago

> He is the biggest looser in this situation Except he isn't, really -- he loses his political position, but he and his family won't be existentially affected by what's going to happen, as opposed to probably tens of millions of people all around Europe.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
dragonmum 10y ago
The EU's common agricultural policy was actively favoring and subsidizing large EU based multinationals and blocking entry into the market by small scale farmers and producers in developing countries. Seems to me like a huge new market called "the UK" just opened up for genuine and fair trade. So overall, this is probably good for hundreds of millions of people around the world.
- viraptor 10y ago
  The policies don't have to change. It's not like the UK severs all the connections with everyone. Multinationals will stay and ensure the new policies and trade treaties allow them to continue.
- ivan_gammel 10y ago
  Isn't UK going to protect its own businesses and jobs? Not everyone is pro-trade in Leave camp, afaik.
  - tonyedgecombe 10y ago
    Yes, the UK still grows half it's own food, those businesses will be lobbying hard.
- YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago
  At last UK farmers can sell their top quality fruit and vegetables to the rest of the world.

actuator 10y ago

With emerging talk of Irish unification and Scottish independence after the referendum, some legacy he is going to leave behind.

tehwalrus 10y ago
Irish unification would be a silver lining to this awfulness.
- anonymousDan 10y ago
  As someone from Ireland I'm really not sure I could be bothered dealing with all the shit that could entail. Would prefer if they just went independent and joined the EU as a separate country.
  - matthewmacleod 10y ago
    Unfortunately Northern Ireland doesn't have the economy or infrastructure to realistically function as an independent state at this point. You never know about the future, but it's likely not on the table any time soon.
    - lostlogin 10y ago
      Which is ironic given how long foreign rule has had to sort the place out.
      - hardlianotion 10y ago
        Not really. Northern Ireland is quite small.
    - Grishnakh 10y ago
      Why does it need to be large to function independently? There are a bunch of far smaller nations in the EU/Europe: Luxembourg, Andorra, San Marino, Liechtenstein, etc. If Northern Ireland became independent, it could just join the EU (regular Ireland is also an EU member), so they wouldn't have to maintain their own currency at least, and would benefit from the free trade. If Luxembourg can function as it is, I don't see why Northern Ireland can't do the same.