5 ms·

I think it's bizarre that a wakeup call is needed. From the moment I saw Trump talk the first time, I thought "wow, he's going to blast things to bits". A lot o

I think it's bizarre that a wakeup call is needed. From the moment I saw Trump talk the first time, I thought "wow, he's going to blast things to bits". A lot of folks think the USG doesn't accomplish things, that politicians are full of nonsense, that the media/news is junk. Simply that Trump is an outsider that's basically an independent should be enough for people to see he's going to win big. The fact that enough people think this way (I've had people say your comment to me in person, but not nearly as nicely) just shows how far out of touch things are. Instead of just yelling bigot/racist/etc., I think Trump's opposition needs to actually listen and see what people are really seeing in him. Otherwise they're in for a big surprise. (FWIW I'd never have considered a US right or nominally conservative before.)

peyton 10y ago
I think you're right. I'm a lifelong Democrat, but having grown up in Texas, the anti-Trump rhetoric is cringy in its disingenuity. Part of winning an election is getting people to show up at the polls, so maybe the Trump opposition rhetoric is aimed at turnout rather than conversion of his supporters.
- agumonkey 10y ago
  Partly true but short sighted. Winning an election isn't just cutaneous reaction. What will he do that can fix things for everybody .. Not saying that his opponents did good or will do better.
scruple 10y ago
> Instead of just yelling bigot/racist/etc. For what it's worth, I've been a registered Democrat my entire adult life. I don't see that happening, at least not large-scale, I think that much has been made clear. I don't think that many people realize that, to many Trump supporters and swing voters, they are essentially proving his point for him. They'll have no one to blame but themselves if he wins.
- MichaelGG 10y ago
  Yes I really do wonder what people think they will accomplish by e.g. waving Mexican flags in protest and yelling in Spanish. I'm living in Guatemala right now, and even out of the people that hate Trump, I've not heard a single one make any positive comment about those protestors.
- johnminter 10y ago
  Guess you haven't been following the violent protests and attacks on his supporters at the Trump rallies. I get it - many do not agree with Mr. Trump. Many times I smack my head at some of his comments. That said, the key to a free society is peaceful exchange of ideas. Don't like his ideas? Great! Critique them! But the fundamental human rights guaranteed under the Bill of Rights include the right to assemble and speak freely. I would note that rallies to listen to the ideas of a presidential candidate are precisely the situations those who drafted the Bill and those who ratified it envisioned. Let's leave the thugs out of the picture. If you want to protest, fine. Be peaceful and do impede the exchange of ideas from those who came to hear what the candidate said. You do not have to agree with anything you hear.
  - scruple 10y ago
    But, that's exactly what I was saying. I value free speech near the top of the list. I'm not taking any of this lightly. This is A Very Big Deal to me and so I've been following this very closely. I've watched Trump's talks, and I've formed my own opinions, and what I see is scaremongering rhetoric on both sides. But, I also see the lion's share of violence belonging to "my side" and it's made me think long and hard about a lot things. I live close to Costa Mesa, CA and the violence at that Trump rally was abhorrent to me. The law enforcement response we later saw in Anaheim, CA, as a result, was cold, calculated, and, quite sadly, exactly what was needed. I agree with you completely, violence is not an acceptable response to not liking the things someone else says.
johnminter 10y ago
I think you are on the right track when you compare the Brexit surprise to the Trump phenomenon. There are many of us who view the main difference between the Democratic and Republican establishment as only the particular special interest, large donors they serve. George Bush was many things, but a fiscal conservative is NOT one. He was the one who pushed through Medicare Part D which contributed greatly to our unfunded liabilities. Every president since Johnson has raided the Social Security Trust Fund to help hide our debt. President Obama has presided over the doubling of our national debt, to over $20T. He had a lot of help from both sides of the aisle. Many of us here realize that this exponential growth in national debt supported by printing unbacked fiat currency cannot continue. We will be in especially deep trouble if other nations decide not continue to use the US dollar as the reserve currency. We cannot continue to outspend on defense the next 11 or 12 nations combined. We cannot solve every crisis in the world. We do not have a perfect choice for president. We never do. We do know that Mrs. Clinton is another one who sees more government intervention as the solution to every problem. She was not very effective as Secretary of State and I am surprised she has not been indicted for compromising national security with her private email server. Even if they had put up Sen. Sanders, his own wife's experience (shutting down the college she presided over because it was economically unsustainable, getting a nice severance package, leaving the students with debt...) shows that his plan is unworkable. At least Mr. Trump realizes that not every expenditure is possible or prudent. He seems to understand the concept of 'vital national interests' - that we must get our own house in order before we can continue to help the greater global community. Those of us who say this are often publicly vilified. We do not seem to be able to have a peaceful, rational exchange of ideas. So people will keep their mouth shut and go cast their ballot in the privacy of the voting booth, exercising their fundamental human right guaranteed by under a constitutional republic. Gee, it sounds a lot like what the voters in the UK just did.
- girmad 10y ago
  I'm not sure Mr. Trump is as prudent financially as he projects. There is still Gary Johnson...
- humanrebar 10y ago
  > At least Mr. Trump realizes that not every expenditure is possible or prudent. As evidenced by his many bankruptcies?
api 10y ago
> Instead of just yelling bigot/racist/etc., I think Trump's opposition needs to actually listen and see what people are really seeing in him. Here. Let me tell you what people see in him. He's bringing up the issue of labor arbitrage. That's the beginning and the end of it. Anyone who talks about Trump without looking at that issue is absolutely clueless (IMHO). The reason for this cluelessness is that most pundits are in "alpha cities" like NYC, DC, SF, LA, etc., and these cities with their financial and higher-tech industries have been spared the economic hollowing out that has occurred elsewhere. They don't see it because in their back yard the economy looks okay. "Why do they not eat cake?" they ask. It's really that bad. Yes there are some people who support him because of his thinly veiled racism, but they are a minority. I know a bunch of Trump supporters back where I grew up (Ohio) and every single one of them talks about outsourcing, outsourcing, and outsourcing, in roughly that order. Most of them are not people I consider particularly racist or anti-immigrant or anti-gay, or at least those are not issues they care deeply about. Many are not religious. They also don't talk much about the Islamic immigration terrorist fear bogey man. They might feel that way a bit, but it's also not a big deal compared to outsourcing. Not even close. ... and as much as I can't stand Trump and would never vote for him for many reasons, I have to kind of agree on this point -- but with a lot of caveats. American (and European) industry has for the past 25+ years been forced to compete with industry in countries where there are no environmental regulations, no minimum wage, no OSHA, and no labor laws or worker rights. (Or so little of those things that it's a joke.) I am very much in favor of free fair trade (and immigration to a point), but this is not fair trade. Basically US and EU corporations have been allowed for the past 25-30 years to leverage the Chinese PLA's billion-strong totalitarian labor camp as a long arm to smash domestic labor. It worked. Wages are stagnant, unions are dead, and vast swaths of the American interior are in a state of near collapse. It's painful every time I go home to Cincinnati, Ohio (where I grew up) and see the effects of this: massive (and understated) unemployment, crumbling infrastructure, alcoholism and drug addiction everywhere (a strong comorbidity with economic malaise), and a general hovering sense of rage that last time I was there I found vaguely foreboding. It reminds me a lot of what I've read about Russia post-USSR-collapse. I live in California now and I feel a little bit like an expat who has fled a dying nation, but who still feels a sense of cultural affinity and loyalty. I wish I could go home sometimes but I want my children to grow up in the first world. What's scary is that Cincinnati is not by any stretch the worst-off place. It has several healthy employers and many very nice neighborhoods. Look at St. Louis, Cleveland, Flint, etc. Some of the interior is nearing collapse-of-civilization levels of decline. "Don't drink the water" is usually a warning we reserve for third world countries. Trump is winning because he talks about this. Meanwhile his opponents don't bring it up or even acknowledge its existence except in vague milquetoast "Wall St. vs Main Street" terms. It's not a slight problem. It's a crisis. Not mentioning it as such is insulting to all the people who are affected by it. (I don't think unfair labor arbitrage is its only cause, but it's definitely a significant contributor.) Edit: See also: https://morecrows.wordpress.com/2016/05/10/unnecessariat/ https://morecrows.wordpress.com/2016/05/10/unnecessariat/

peyton 10y ago

I think you're right. I'm a lifelong Democrat, but having grown up in Texas, the anti-Trump rhetoric is cringy in its disingenuity. Part of winning an election is getting people to show up at the polls, so maybe the Trump opposition rhetoric is aimed at turnout rather than conversion of his supporters.

agumonkey 10y ago
Partly true but short sighted. Winning an election isn't just cutaneous reaction. What will he do that can fix things for everybody .. Not saying that his opponents did good or will do better.

scruple 10y ago

> Instead of just yelling bigot/racist/etc. For what it's worth, I've been a registered Democrat my entire adult life. I don't see that happening, at least not large-scale, I think that much has been made clear. I don't think that many people realize that, to many Trump supporters and swing voters, they are essentially proving his point for him. They'll have no one to blame but themselves if he wins.

MichaelGG 10y ago
Yes I really do wonder what people think they will accomplish by e.g. waving Mexican flags in protest and yelling in Spanish. I'm living in Guatemala right now, and even out of the people that hate Trump, I've not heard a single one make any positive comment about those protestors.
johnminter 10y ago
Guess you haven't been following the violent protests and attacks on his supporters at the Trump rallies. I get it - many do not agree with Mr. Trump. Many times I smack my head at some of his comments. That said, the key to a free society is peaceful exchange of ideas. Don't like his ideas? Great! Critique them! But the fundamental human rights guaranteed under the Bill of Rights include the right to assemble and speak freely. I would note that rallies to listen to the ideas of a presidential candidate are precisely the situations those who drafted the Bill and those who ratified it envisioned. Let's leave the thugs out of the picture. If you want to protest, fine. Be peaceful and do impede the exchange of ideas from those who came to hear what the candidate said. You do not have to agree with anything you hear.
- scruple 10y ago
  But, that's exactly what I was saying. I value free speech near the top of the list. I'm not taking any of this lightly. This is A Very Big Deal to me and so I've been following this very closely. I've watched Trump's talks, and I've formed my own opinions, and what I see is scaremongering rhetoric on both sides. But, I also see the lion's share of violence belonging to "my side" and it's made me think long and hard about a lot things. I live close to Costa Mesa, CA and the violence at that Trump rally was abhorrent to me. The law enforcement response we later saw in Anaheim, CA, as a result, was cold, calculated, and, quite sadly, exactly what was needed. I agree with you completely, violence is not an acceptable response to not liking the things someone else says.

johnminter 10y ago

I think you are on the right track when you compare the Brexit surprise to the Trump phenomenon. There are many of us who view the main difference between the Democratic and Republican establishment as only the particular special interest, large donors they serve. George Bush was many things, but a fiscal conservative is NOT one. He was the one who pushed through Medicare Part D which contributed greatly to our unfunded liabilities. Every president since Johnson has raided the Social Security Trust Fund to help hide our debt. President Obama has presided over the doubling of our national debt, to over $20T. He had a lot of help from both sides of the aisle. Many of us here realize that this exponential growth in national debt supported by printing unbacked fiat currency cannot continue. We will be in especially deep trouble if other nations decide not continue to use the US dollar as the reserve currency. We cannot continue to outspend on defense the next 11 or 12 nations combined. We cannot solve every crisis in the world. We do not have a perfect choice for president. We never do. We do know that Mrs. Clinton is another one who sees more government intervention as the solution to every problem. She was not very effective as Secretary of State and I am surprised she has not been indicted for compromising national security with her private email server. Even if they had put up Sen. Sanders, his own wife's experience (shutting down the college she presided over because it was economically unsustainable, getting a nice severance package, leaving the students with debt...) shows that his plan is unworkable. At least Mr. Trump realizes that not every expenditure is possible or prudent. He seems to understand the concept of 'vital national interests' - that we must get our own house in order before we can continue to help the greater global community. Those of us who say this are often publicly vilified. We do not seem to be able to have a peaceful, rational exchange of ideas. So people will keep their mouth shut and go cast their ballot in the privacy of the voting booth, exercising their fundamental human right guaranteed by under a constitutional republic. Gee, it sounds a lot like what the voters in the UK just did.

girmad 10y ago
I'm not sure Mr. Trump is as prudent financially as he projects. There is still Gary Johnson...
humanrebar 10y ago
> At least Mr. Trump realizes that not every expenditure is possible or prudent. As evidenced by his many bankruptcies?

api 10y ago

> Instead of just yelling bigot/racist/etc., I think Trump's opposition needs to actually listen and see what people are really seeing in him. Here. Let me tell you what people see in him. He's bringing up the issue of labor arbitrage. That's the beginning and the end of it. Anyone who talks about Trump without looking at that issue is absolutely clueless (IMHO). The reason for this cluelessness is that most pundits are in "alpha cities" like NYC, DC, SF, LA, etc., and these cities with their financial and higher-tech industries have been spared the economic hollowing out that has occurred elsewhere. They don't see it because in their back yard the economy looks okay. "Why do they not eat cake?" they ask. It's really that bad. Yes there are some people who support him because of his thinly veiled racism, but they are a minority. I know a bunch of Trump supporters back where I grew up (Ohio) and every single one of them talks about outsourcing, outsourcing, and outsourcing, in roughly that order. Most of them are not people I consider particularly racist or anti-immigrant or anti-gay, or at least those are not issues they care deeply about. Many are not religious. They also don't talk much about the Islamic immigration terrorist fear bogey man. They might feel that way a bit, but it's also not a big deal compared to outsourcing. Not even close. ... and as much as I can't stand Trump and would never vote for him for many reasons, I have to kind of agree on this point -- but with a lot of caveats. American (and European) industry has for the past 25+ years been forced to compete with industry in countries where there are no environmental regulations, no minimum wage, no OSHA, and no labor laws or worker rights. (Or so little of those things that it's a joke.) I am very much in favor of free fair trade (and immigration to a point), but this is not fair trade. Basically US and EU corporations have been allowed for the past 25-30 years to leverage the Chinese PLA's billion-strong totalitarian labor camp as a long arm to smash domestic labor. It worked. Wages are stagnant, unions are dead, and vast swaths of the American interior are in a state of near collapse. It's painful every time I go home to Cincinnati, Ohio (where I grew up) and see the effects of this: massive (and understated) unemployment, crumbling infrastructure, alcoholism and drug addiction everywhere (a strong comorbidity with economic malaise), and a general hovering sense of rage that last time I was there I found vaguely foreboding. It reminds me a lot of what I've read about Russia post-USSR-collapse. I live in California now and I feel a little bit like an expat who has fled a dying nation, but who still feels a sense of cultural affinity and loyalty. I wish I could go home sometimes but I want my children to grow up in the first world. What's scary is that Cincinnati is not by any stretch the worst-off place. It has several healthy employers and many very nice neighborhoods. Look at St. Louis, Cleveland, Flint, etc. Some of the interior is nearing collapse-of-civilization levels of decline. "Don't drink the water" is usually a warning we reserve for third world countries. Trump is winning because he talks about this. Meanwhile his opponents don't bring it up or even acknowledge its existence except in vague milquetoast "Wall St. vs Main Street" terms. It's not a slight problem. It's a crisis. Not mentioning it as such is insulting to all the people who are affected by it. (I don't think unfair labor arbitrage is its only cause, but it's definitely a significant contributor.) Edit: See also: https://morecrows.wordpress.com/2016/05/10/unnecessariat/ https://morecrows.wordpress.com/2016/05/10/unnecessariat/