8 ms·

Unfortunately nationalism and populism won another war. Now watch Scotland make referendum to leave UK and after leaving they will join EU.

by lossolo 10y ago

zacketysack3 10y ago
As a free market supporter it is horrifying that protectionist sentiments reign supreme in the UK. Hopefully this does not foreshadow the US congressional and presidential elections in November.
- tuna-piano 10y ago
  Was this vote protectionist? I assume they'll just setup free trade deals with Europe, similiar to what Norway and Switzerland already have?
- ekianjo 10y ago
  It's actually a good thing for Free Market, since the UK will now be able to define what rules they want to play with, instead of having to rely on EU's bureaucrats.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - nikdaheratik 10y ago
    For their internal markets maybe, but the EU is half of their exports. So either they stop exporting, or they follow the rules of the EU without having a say in them. There are some good arguments for leaving, but this isn't one of them, IMO.
ekianjo 10y ago
To be frank the EU was built on power centralization and socialism as key principles. It's been what, 15 years+ since the Eurozone and the Economy is still doing as bad as before, if not worse for most member states. Hardly a success model by ANY measure.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  How does anyone expect growth in a developed country? You can't free market your way out of it without sacrificing your social obligations and protections. What is success? High YOY GDP growth? Or quality of life? Look to America (my country) with very limited worker protections, almost no social safety nets, extremely high income and wealthy inequality; we still only eek out only ~2% GDP growth, and that's on the backs of the poor.
  - ekianjo 10y ago
    There are many measures of success, and if you want to talk about quality of life, by all means look at how bad the discontentment with the EU has been growing over the years, among all member states. Keeping everyone in the EU is not sustainable.
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      Show me a model you'd replicate. I will argue that Britain was the model I'd replicate. Was.
      - ekianjo 10y ago
        I'm not playing politics, but in my take any movement that distances you from a remote central power is positive in the end. Freedom should have been the basis for the EU, not Socialism. We all know where it's headed now.
        toomuchtodo 10y ago
        Is the supposed freedom worth it if your country's economy suffers? I'm not asking for political reasons either, I'm talking purely economical. Freedom has a cost, and it seems that the UK populace who voted to leave does not fully understand that cost.
        ekianjo 10y ago
Consultant32452 10y ago
Is populism supposed to be bad? I just looked up the definition to make sure and it's basically the principle that ordinary people should have control over government rather than political insiders and wealthy elite. That sounds like democracy to me. Is there an aspect I'm missing?
- mmbaghdad 10y ago
  It is supposed to, if you add fear mongering to it. Dictators usually believe in it, that's why they try to control every news outlet or public space there is and spread their propaganda
- elthran 10y ago
  For me, the downside of populism is that the political insiders and wealthy elite just so happen to be the people who actually understand how economies and governments and international agreements work. The common man may think he knows everything, but he really doesn't.
  - Clubber 10y ago
    Agreed, but whether or not they manipulate the economy to the benefit of the citizens is another story.
    - mhuffman 10y ago
      Right, they have no incentive other than to make themselves better off. And it shows[1]. [1] http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPPS%2FPPS12_03%2FS1537592714001595a.pdf http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPPS%2FPPS...
  - badloginagain 10y ago
    That and the populist vote doesn't vote rationally. They vote emotionally. This puts you in a state where charismatic leaders will appeal to and exploit emotional triggers in people. Historical evidence suggests that such leaders tend to move towards to political extremes.
rayiner 10y ago
It's ironic to me that a site where people extol the virtues of consistent culture at startups is so down on people voting to free themselves from a body politic they don't believe shares their values.
- booleanbetrayal 10y ago
  "Change the world (but don't)!"
  - Simon321 10y ago
    With change people usually mean positive change. Progress. This is undoing change, the opposite of progress. Now it's just like it was before.
    - dropit_sphere 10y ago
      Wahtever you do, don't fix bugs after you've introduced them. Do you want to be stuck in the past?

Unfortunately nationalism and populism won another war. Now watch Scotland make referendum to leave UK and after leaving they will join EU.

by lossolo 10y ago

Unfortunately nationalism and populism won another war. Now watch Scotland make referendum to leave UK and after leaving they will join EU.

zacketysack3 10y ago

As a free market supporter it is horrifying that protectionist sentiments reign supreme in the UK. Hopefully this does not foreshadow the US congressional and presidential elections in November.

tuna-piano 10y ago
Was this vote protectionist? I assume they'll just setup free trade deals with Europe, similiar to what Norway and Switzerland already have?
ekianjo 10y ago
It's actually a good thing for Free Market, since the UK will now be able to define what rules they want to play with, instead of having to rely on EU's bureaucrats.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- nikdaheratik 10y ago
  For their internal markets maybe, but the EU is half of their exports. So either they stop exporting, or they follow the rules of the EU without having a say in them. There are some good arguments for leaving, but this isn't one of them, IMO.

ekianjo 10y ago

To be frank the EU was built on power centralization and socialism as key principles. It's been what, 15 years+ since the Eurozone and the Economy is still doing as bad as before, if not worse for most member states. Hardly a success model by ANY measure.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
How does anyone expect growth in a developed country? You can't free market your way out of it without sacrificing your social obligations and protections. What is success? High YOY GDP growth? Or quality of life? Look to America (my country) with very limited worker protections, almost no social safety nets, extremely high income and wealthy inequality; we still only eek out only ~2% GDP growth, and that's on the backs of the poor.
- ekianjo 10y ago
  There are many measures of success, and if you want to talk about quality of life, by all means look at how bad the discontentment with the EU has been growing over the years, among all member states. Keeping everyone in the EU is not sustainable.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    Show me a model you'd replicate. I will argue that Britain was the model I'd replicate. Was.
    - ekianjo 10y ago
      I'm not playing politics, but in my take any movement that distances you from a remote central power is positive in the end. Freedom should have been the basis for the EU, not Socialism. We all know where it's headed now.
      - toomuchtodo 10y ago
        Is the supposed freedom worth it if your country's economy suffers? I'm not asking for political reasons either, I'm talking purely economical. Freedom has a cost, and it seems that the UK populace who voted to leave does not fully understand that cost.
        ekianjo 10y ago

Consultant32452 10y ago

Is populism supposed to be bad? I just looked up the definition to make sure and it's basically the principle that ordinary people should have control over government rather than political insiders and wealthy elite. That sounds like democracy to me. Is there an aspect I'm missing?

mmbaghdad 10y ago
It is supposed to, if you add fear mongering to it. Dictators usually believe in it, that's why they try to control every news outlet or public space there is and spread their propaganda
elthran 10y ago
For me, the downside of populism is that the political insiders and wealthy elite just so happen to be the people who actually understand how economies and governments and international agreements work. The common man may think he knows everything, but he really doesn't.
- Clubber 10y ago
  Agreed, but whether or not they manipulate the economy to the benefit of the citizens is another story.
  - mhuffman 10y ago
    Right, they have no incentive other than to make themselves better off. And it shows[1]. [1] http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPPS%2FPPS12_03%2FS1537592714001595a.pdf http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPPS%2FPPS...
- badloginagain 10y ago
  That and the populist vote doesn't vote rationally. They vote emotionally. This puts you in a state where charismatic leaders will appeal to and exploit emotional triggers in people. Historical evidence suggests that such leaders tend to move towards to political extremes.

rayiner 10y ago

It's ironic to me that a site where people extol the virtues of consistent culture at startups is so down on people voting to free themselves from a body politic they don't believe shares their values.

booleanbetrayal 10y ago
"Change the world (but don't)!"
- Simon321 10y ago
  With change people usually mean positive change. Progress. This is undoing change, the opposite of progress. Now it's just like it was before.
  - dropit_sphere 10y ago
    Wahtever you do, don't fix bugs after you've introduced them. Do you want to be stuck in the past?