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In the Netherlands and Germany I've seen traffic jams develop due to drivers slowing down to observe an accident on the other lane. I know this is illegal to do

by cm3 10y ago

In the Netherlands and Germany I've seen traffic jams develop due to drivers slowing down to observe an accident on the other lane. I know this is illegal to do in both countries, but it doesn't keep anyone doing so. I've never been able to not slow down myself because the laws of physics didn't allow me to pass through the observers. Stricter and more expensive ticketing might help.

paulannesley 10y ago
> Stricter and more expensive ticketing might help. I doubt it, and… please no. Demerit points maybe. Fines disproportionately punish the less affluent and incentivise the wrong attitude to enforcement.
- williamscales 10y ago
  Day fines could work.
  - Someone 10y ago
    For those who don't know the term: it is using fines proportional to the amount of money one has available for spending on a day, as they do in Finland, where speeding tickets can go over $100,000 for the very affluent (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland-home-of-the-103000-speeding-ticket/387484/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland-...) Yes, you cannot hope to reach complete equality of the impact a fine has on the drivers, but you cannot do that with demerit points, either. A driver who needs his car to make a living will likely be affected stronger than a driver who has a decent alternative.
- cm3 10y ago
  Sure, but there have to be lower and upper limits to it. Or would you want a rich guy to pay $750k? Hmm, maybe there shouldn't be an upper limit.
- cm3 10y ago
  I agree with what the sibling comments said regarding fines, and it would be interesting to see statistics before/after Germany introduced hefty fines/penalties for not keeping the required distance relative to speed. One problem I've observed with uncoordinated speeds on German Autobahns is drivers who seemingly switch to their left lane without noticing a faster vehicle approaching which then has to brake suddenly which in itself is a danger to everyone. Out of anything, I feel like autonomous vehicles with coordination will make lives less stressful.
ajmurmann 10y ago
I would prefer a more general change: studies show that traffic jams and accidents happen more frequently if cars are going at widely different speeds. So the consequence should be not only to ticket drivers who go too fast but also drivers who go too slow. So instead of setting a speed limit we need a speed range and deviation from it in either direction should be punished. Obviously this would only be for freeways and certain highways.
- cm3 10y ago
  I've been in one such jam in the Netherlands where there is an upper limit at which everyone consistently (for the most part) drives their cars on the highway. So I don't know if that would help.
jessriedel 10y ago
This isn't really pertinent to the article. It's not about "stream smoothing" through more judicious use of gas and break.
Dylan16807 10y ago
Please don't ticket people for driving at a safer speed while next to an accident.
- refurb 10y ago
  I assumed he was talking about an accident in the opposing lanes. I've seen that a lot in the US. Divided highway with a good 30 ft of grass between opposing lanes and people slow down because of an accident on the other side. Nothing but rubbernecking.
- Tomte 10y ago
  Gazing at some accident twenty meters away with no influence on your side of the Autobahn instead of looking at the road in front of you is the opposite of safe driving.
thaumasiotes 10y ago
> In the Netherlands and Germany I've seen traffic jams develop due to drivers slowing down to observe an accident on the other lane. That's nothing out of the ordinary. In the US the behavior is known as "rubbernecking".
andyjdavis 10y ago
>Stricter and more expensive ticketing might help. I wouldn't hold my breath. After all, you are attempting to change what appears to be fundamental human behaviour, curiosity.
tpeo 10y ago
Wouldn't a surprise "lane reduction" due to an accident alone be enough to account for the traffic jam? Imagine that there's an accident in a single lane. The remaining lanes now have to take in all the other drivers from the accident lane, while these drivers decelerate and attempt to take the remaining lanes at speeds lower than the average speed. Yet single car cutting in line could trigger the deceleration of the entire remaining lane (like in "traffic wave" models). The cars in this lane then try to cut into another lane, and so on, such that the whole traffic is impaired. And this keeps going on for every cohort of cars reaching the accident area, producing the traffic jam. This is my intuition of it, at least.
- mjevans 10y ago
  You've accurately observed what everyone in rush hour sees firsthand; how the poison distribution occurs in real life. Worse, if you're the one in that vanishing lane, behaving in those optimum for you ways, you're the winner. Automated driving, particularly if the automated driving lanes only obey 'safe driving speed' (not an actual limit) is the only real hope aside from a reduction in the traveling population. Speaking of that, the best solution to this issue and that of skyrocketing prices for housing of any sort is build-baby-build (in all the cities).
  - eru 10y ago
    Nitpick: it's spelled Poisson distribution. We are probably looking at a Poisson process, actually.
- Someone 10y ago
  You're right, but this is something different. The OP talks about accidents on highways with a hard shoulder in the middle of the road, in a lane going in the reverse direction (I'm fairly sure that interpretation is correct, but it requires some reading between the lines)
  - cm3 10y ago
    That's right.
cm3 10y ago
To be clear, I'm talking about highways with a solid divider and no way to change lanes except taking an exit. Also, I've been in one such jam in the Netherlands where everybody drives at a consistent 130 km/h max. Reading the responses here, autonomous vehicles going in a coordinated fashion might be the only viable solution.

by cm3 10y ago

paulannesley 10y ago

> Stricter and more expensive ticketing might help. I doubt it, and… please no. Demerit points maybe. Fines disproportionately punish the less affluent and incentivise the wrong attitude to enforcement.

williamscales 10y ago
Day fines could work.
- Someone 10y ago
  For those who don't know the term: it is using fines proportional to the amount of money one has available for spending on a day, as they do in Finland, where speeding tickets can go over $100,000 for the very affluent (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland-home-of-the-103000-speeding-ticket/387484/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland-...) Yes, you cannot hope to reach complete equality of the impact a fine has on the drivers, but you cannot do that with demerit points, either. A driver who needs his car to make a living will likely be affected stronger than a driver who has a decent alternative.
cm3 10y ago
Sure, but there have to be lower and upper limits to it. Or would you want a rich guy to pay $750k? Hmm, maybe there shouldn't be an upper limit.
cm3 10y ago
I agree with what the sibling comments said regarding fines, and it would be interesting to see statistics before/after Germany introduced hefty fines/penalties for not keeping the required distance relative to speed. One problem I've observed with uncoordinated speeds on German Autobahns is drivers who seemingly switch to their left lane without noticing a faster vehicle approaching which then has to brake suddenly which in itself is a danger to everyone. Out of anything, I feel like autonomous vehicles with coordination will make lives less stressful.

ajmurmann 10y ago

I would prefer a more general change: studies show that traffic jams and accidents happen more frequently if cars are going at widely different speeds. So the consequence should be not only to ticket drivers who go too fast but also drivers who go too slow. So instead of setting a speed limit we need a speed range and deviation from it in either direction should be punished. Obviously this would only be for freeways and certain highways.

cm3 10y ago
I've been in one such jam in the Netherlands where there is an upper limit at which everyone consistently (for the most part) drives their cars on the highway. So I don't know if that would help.

jessriedel 10y ago

This isn't really pertinent to the article. It's not about "stream smoothing" through more judicious use of gas and break.

Dylan16807 10y ago

Please don't ticket people for driving at a safer speed while next to an accident.

refurb 10y ago
I assumed he was talking about an accident in the opposing lanes. I've seen that a lot in the US. Divided highway with a good 30 ft of grass between opposing lanes and people slow down because of an accident on the other side. Nothing but rubbernecking.
Tomte 10y ago
Gazing at some accident twenty meters away with no influence on your side of the Autobahn instead of looking at the road in front of you is the opposite of safe driving.

thaumasiotes 10y ago

> In the Netherlands and Germany I've seen traffic jams develop due to drivers slowing down to observe an accident on the other lane. That's nothing out of the ordinary. In the US the behavior is known as "rubbernecking".

andyjdavis 10y ago

>Stricter and more expensive ticketing might help. I wouldn't hold my breath. After all, you are attempting to change what appears to be fundamental human behaviour, curiosity.

tpeo 10y ago

Wouldn't a surprise "lane reduction" due to an accident alone be enough to account for the traffic jam? Imagine that there's an accident in a single lane. The remaining lanes now have to take in all the other drivers from the accident lane, while these drivers decelerate and attempt to take the remaining lanes at speeds lower than the average speed. Yet single car cutting in line could trigger the deceleration of the entire remaining lane (like in "traffic wave" models). The cars in this lane then try to cut into another lane, and so on, such that the whole traffic is impaired. And this keeps going on for every cohort of cars reaching the accident area, producing the traffic jam. This is my intuition of it, at least.

mjevans 10y ago
You've accurately observed what everyone in rush hour sees firsthand; how the poison distribution occurs in real life. Worse, if you're the one in that vanishing lane, behaving in those optimum for you ways, you're the winner. Automated driving, particularly if the automated driving lanes only obey 'safe driving speed' (not an actual limit) is the only real hope aside from a reduction in the traveling population. Speaking of that, the best solution to this issue and that of skyrocketing prices for housing of any sort is build-baby-build (in all the cities).
- eru 10y ago
  Nitpick: it's spelled Poisson distribution. We are probably looking at a Poisson process, actually.
Someone 10y ago
You're right, but this is something different. The OP talks about accidents on highways with a hard shoulder in the middle of the road, in a lane going in the reverse direction (I'm fairly sure that interpretation is correct, but it requires some reading between the lines)
- cm3 10y ago
  That's right.

cm3 10y ago

To be clear, I'm talking about highways with a solid divider and no way to change lanes except taking an exit. Also, I've been in one such jam in the Netherlands where everybody drives at a consistent 130 km/h max. Reading the responses here, autonomous vehicles going in a coordinated fashion might be the only viable solution.