5 ms·

Unicode is supposed to include symbols that appear in "running text", not standalone icons. So no on traffic signs for instance. (There are exceptions for histo

by kens 10y ago

Unicode is supposed to include symbols that appear in "running text", not standalone icons. So no on traffic signs for instance. (There are exceptions for historical reasons. And emoji are a totally separate story.)

igravious 10y ago
How are traffic signs not in "running text" in books about the rules of the road and such like?
- Jaruzel 10y ago
  I'm not sure about the 'running text' thing, but in my view Traffic Signs are not globally universal (yet), so you'd have to have regional variants which is impractical.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    Tons of the things in unicode are not "globally universal".
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Signs_and_Signals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Sign...
- coldtea 10y ago
  Running text means INSIDE text (as in: "running along" with the other characters), not "used in a book as illustration".
  - igravious 10y ago
    Yes, of course. What was I thinking?
  - pc2g4d 10y ago
    It seems that every symbol imaginable will be used in running text eventually. At very least, for purposes of discussing the symbol itself!
andyjohnson0 10y ago
> And emoji are a totally separate story. Recent article on the Unicode/emoji debate: https://www.buzzfeed.com/charliewarzel/inside-emojigeddon-the-fight-over-the-future-of-the-unicode https://www.buzzfeed.com/charliewarzel/inside-emojigeddon-th...
- TorKlingberg 10y ago
  Unicode 9.0 adds 7500 characters, 72 of which are emoji, so I think the "Emojigeddon" is a bit exaggerated.
  - ivl 10y ago
    Sounds like 72 too many if you ask me. In all seriousness, I'm not sure emoji's really belong in text encoding. Even though it's more convenient, based on where they're most frequently used I don't think they need to be universal.
    - TheCoelacanth 10y ago
      The "universal" in Unicode means that it aspires to include all symbols used in any form of text; not that it should only include symbols that are used in all forms of text.
    - msbarnett 10y ago
      Your options are: 1) everybody uses them on their phones, they're in Unicode, consistent and compatible between devices and messaging programs. In the far flung future, researchers will be able to study their linguistic role in communication, confident in understanding what the characters were. 2) everybody uses them on their phones, they're proprietary fonts and codepoints (in the Unicode private use area if you're luck, just random data if you're not), there's no consistency between phone models, manufacturers, or cell networks. Future researchers can pound sand. We were at #2 pre-Unicode. It was a goddamn mess, especially in Japan. Lord knows why anyone would prefer it. There's no value in being a snob about what kinds of incredibly frequently used characters we think are Worthy of inclusion, imo.
copperx 10y ago
I have never read a book that had a snowman in the running text, so what's the story for emoji?
- burkaman 10y ago
  What about a text, or an article? Books aren't the only source of running text.
  - pedasmith 10y ago
    And what about email? I have to support POP3 (!); my customers would be seriously unhappy if they can't sent an email with emoji. Heck, I'd be unhappy. I love adding emoticon and emoji and fun things to my emails.
- halomru 10y ago
  Emoji are widely used in text such as instant messages and forum posts. They are mostly in Unicode for use in SMS, but there are plenty of use cases in other forms of text.
- TheCoelacanth 10y ago
  Books aren't the only form of running text. Emoji are quite common in some forms of textual communication.
- kens 10y ago
  Emoji were added to Unicode for compatibility with various mobile phones, so they would have a standard encoding. That's how Unicode ended up with the poop emoji for example - they didn't sit around thinking "what we really need is...". Since people really, really want more emoji, Unicode is sort of stuck constantly adding more. If you want to propose new emoji, the rules are at http://www.unicode.org/emoji/selection.html http://www.unicode.org/emoji/selection.html Text symbols (as opposed to emoji) have different rules. Basically, the symbol needs to be used in "running text" (i.e. normal text), like "containers with [recycling symbol] can be recycled" or "he bid 2[club]". Traffic signs for example are not normally used in the middle of text, so they aren't encoded in Unicode. To get the Bitcoin symbol encoded, I needed to show that it was used in text, not just as a standalone icon. The full rules for symbols in Unicode are at http://www.unicode.org/pending/symbol-guidelines.html http://www.unicode.org/pending/symbol-guidelines.html For the snowman in particular, it was added to Unicode because it was a symbol used in the character set for Japanese TV broadcasts, see http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2007/07391-n3341.pdf http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2007/07391-n3341.pdf TL;DR: Don't argue "Why does Unicode have a poop emoji but no symbol for X?" - the rules are totally different for emoji and symbols. Edit: does HN strip out arbitrary Unicode characters now? I originally had Unicode characters in place of [recycling symbol] and [club], but they disappeared when I submitted.

by kens 10y ago

igravious 10y ago

How are traffic signs not in "running text" in books about the rules of the road and such like?

Jaruzel 10y ago
I'm not sure about the 'running text' thing, but in my view Traffic Signs are not globally universal (yet), so you'd have to have regional variants which is impractical.
- coldtea 10y ago
  Tons of the things in unicode are not "globally universal".
- GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Signs_and_Signals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Sign...
coldtea 10y ago
Running text means INSIDE text (as in: "running along" with the other characters), not "used in a book as illustration".
- igravious 10y ago
  Yes, of course. What was I thinking?
- pc2g4d 10y ago
  It seems that every symbol imaginable will be used in running text eventually. At very least, for purposes of discussing the symbol itself!

andyjohnson0 10y ago

> And emoji are a totally separate story. Recent article on the Unicode/emoji debate: https://www.buzzfeed.com/charliewarzel/inside-emojigeddon-the-fight-over-the-future-of-the-unicode https://www.buzzfeed.com/charliewarzel/inside-emojigeddon-th...

TorKlingberg 10y ago
Unicode 9.0 adds 7500 characters, 72 of which are emoji, so I think the "Emojigeddon" is a bit exaggerated.
- ivl 10y ago
  Sounds like 72 too many if you ask me. In all seriousness, I'm not sure emoji's really belong in text encoding. Even though it's more convenient, based on where they're most frequently used I don't think they need to be universal.
  - TheCoelacanth 10y ago
    The "universal" in Unicode means that it aspires to include all symbols used in any form of text; not that it should only include symbols that are used in all forms of text.
  - msbarnett 10y ago
    Your options are: 1) everybody uses them on their phones, they're in Unicode, consistent and compatible between devices and messaging programs. In the far flung future, researchers will be able to study their linguistic role in communication, confident in understanding what the characters were. 2) everybody uses them on their phones, they're proprietary fonts and codepoints (in the Unicode private use area if you're luck, just random data if you're not), there's no consistency between phone models, manufacturers, or cell networks. Future researchers can pound sand. We were at #2 pre-Unicode. It was a goddamn mess, especially in Japan. Lord knows why anyone would prefer it. There's no value in being a snob about what kinds of incredibly frequently used characters we think are Worthy of inclusion, imo.

copperx 10y ago

I have never read a book that had a snowman in the running text, so what's the story for emoji?

burkaman 10y ago
What about a text, or an article? Books aren't the only source of running text.
- pedasmith 10y ago
  And what about email? I have to support POP3 (!); my customers would be seriously unhappy if they can't sent an email with emoji. Heck, I'd be unhappy. I love adding emoticon and emoji and fun things to my emails.
halomru 10y ago
Emoji are widely used in text such as instant messages and forum posts. They are mostly in Unicode for use in SMS, but there are plenty of use cases in other forms of text.
TheCoelacanth 10y ago
Books aren't the only form of running text. Emoji are quite common in some forms of textual communication.
kens 10y ago
Emoji were added to Unicode for compatibility with various mobile phones, so they would have a standard encoding. That's how Unicode ended up with the poop emoji for example - they didn't sit around thinking "what we really need is...". Since people really, really want more emoji, Unicode is sort of stuck constantly adding more. If you want to propose new emoji, the rules are at http://www.unicode.org/emoji/selection.html http://www.unicode.org/emoji/selection.html Text symbols (as opposed to emoji) have different rules. Basically, the symbol needs to be used in "running text" (i.e. normal text), like "containers with [recycling symbol] can be recycled" or "he bid 2[club]". Traffic signs for example are not normally used in the middle of text, so they aren't encoded in Unicode. To get the Bitcoin symbol encoded, I needed to show that it was used in text, not just as a standalone icon. The full rules for symbols in Unicode are at http://www.unicode.org/pending/symbol-guidelines.html http://www.unicode.org/pending/symbol-guidelines.html For the snowman in particular, it was added to Unicode because it was a symbol used in the character set for Japanese TV broadcasts, see http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2007/07391-n3341.pdf http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2007/07391-n3341.pdf TL;DR: Don't argue "Why does Unicode have a poop emoji but no symbol for X?" - the rules are totally different for emoji and symbols. Edit: does HN strip out arbitrary Unicode characters now? I originally had Unicode characters in place of [recycling symbol] and [club], but they disappeared when I submitted.