7 ms·

John Gruber's response (http://daringfireball.net/2016/06/headphone_jacks_are_the_new_floppy_drives http://daringfireball.net/2016/06/headphone_jacks_are_the_ne

John Gruber's response (http://daringfireball.net/2016/06/headphone_jacks_are_the_new_floppy_drives http://daringfireball.net/2016/06/headphone_jacks_are_the_ne... ): > Should the analog headphone jack remain on our devices forever? If you think so, you can stop reading. What's the advantage to removing the headphone jack? Is the jack some sort of bottleneck to sound quality that nobody noticed until now? I really don't see a benefit in removing the headphone jack, now or anytime in the foreseeable future.

kbart 10y ago
It's too big (at least according to those "slim" worshiping designers).
- creshal 10y ago
  Then use the standardized 2.5mm analog audio plug that was designed for space-constrained environments.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    Yes, but if you're going to change it, might as well go full on. Why use a same-era technology? Yes, it will be thin too, but it will also have the same issues as going for a digital interface (annoying people with the change etc) -- but without any of its advanced capabilities (e.g. for device control).
- mr_sturd 10y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11953691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11953691 I'll point you in the direction of bsimpson's post, just above.
elthran 10y ago
I think the argument that is made is that it's stopping phones becoming thinner - which looking at the size of the jack on my Nexus 5X, I can believe. However, personally, I'll live with a thicker phone if it means I can have a larger capacity battery, let alone a 3.5mm jack
- TheGirondin 10y ago
  Phones have gotten thin enough. I would rather have more battery capacity and more drop/screen durability.
  - maccard 10y ago
    Actions speak louder than words. People continue to say they want more durable phones and longer battery life, but continue to buy thinner and shinier phones.
    - SeanBoocock 10y ago
      I'd be interested to hear and read about examples of this being tested in the market. Have consumers been presented with a choice between phone thinness and battery life on the otherwise same phone hardware?
      - trowawee 10y ago
        http://www.wired.com/2012/04/why-is-htc-choosing-phone-thinness-over-battery-life/ http://www.wired.com/2012/04/why-is-htc-choosing-phone-thinn... > According to Kilburn, HTC’s consumer research shows people prefer thin smartphones — between 8 mm and 10 mm thick — as opposed to thicker devices with longer battery life. One data point, but that's what HTC's claiming their customer research shows, and Apple's trends suggest their internal data points the same way.
        CaptSpify 10y ago
        Maybe I missed it in the article, but it's interesting to me that people aren't give 2 versions of the same device to choose from. That's like saying people prefer the color blue, because they keep buying blue Accords over red Civics. There's clearly more than the one option going into the choice here.
        dingaling 10y ago
        > between 8 mm and 10 mm thick That's not particularly thin, both Vivo and Oppo have models under 5mm. The former even managed to keep the 3.5 jack in the 4.75mm X5.
rplst8 10y ago
Comparing the 3.5 mm audio jack to the floppy drive is ridiculous. The jack has become far, far, more ubiquitous than the floppy drive. Additionally, the things that use the jack are often of higher quality and not disposible like a floppy disk was. And this ignores the fact that the floppy disk/drive was technologically usurped by other removable storage formats. The 3.5 mm jack still delivers the absolute best sound quality compared to the other options available on a smart phone. Most, if not all, of the other solutions will be a step backward.
- SloopJon 10y ago
  Yeah, this is amazing apologism, even for Gruber. "And in five years we’ll look at analog headphone jacks the way we look at all the other legacy ports we’ve abandoned." In five years, there are going to a lot of crappy Lightning earbuds in drawers and landfills.
  - smt88 10y ago
    > look at all the other legacy ports we’ve abandoned I miss a lot of those ports. A lot of people do. Fumbling around the office for an Apple-compatible video cable is a relatively frequent event, in my experience.
    - mrob 10y ago
      I still have an old fashioned parallel port (via PCI card) on my PC, because there's no other option for convenient and low-latency GPIO. And I don't remember old fashioned serial ports needing special drivers that would brick unapproved hardware, like some modern FTDI USB serial adaptors did. "Legacy" ports are simple and reliable. Let's not abandon the simple and reliable 3.5mm headphone port.
      - kale 10y ago
        This is a great point. I am gearing up to use a Raspberry Pi in a project for GPIO. It doesn't have to be low-powered necessarily, but the abandonment of the parallel port means that getting GPIO on a PC is more difficult.
cr1895 10y ago
I use higher impedance headphones that the built-in amplifier doesn't power well enough. Therefore I use a separate amp/DAC that feeds through usb from my iPhone. But this certainly describes a very limited subset of people who listen to music through headphones, and even though I don't use it much I wouldn't like to see the analog jack go away.
acqq 10y ago
> If you think so, you can stop reading. I didn't and really there are no arguments there why would it be better for anybody but Apple. The premise of the article is "once it's accepted that the analog jack must go, let's just write whatever." It doesn't even discuss what the advantage for Apple should be. Which would make clearer why it's not for anybody else.
CaptainZapp 10y ago
Should the analog headphone jack remain on our devices forever? If you think so, you can stop reading. Good! Saves me the read.
haddr 10y ago
Floppy disk is a straw man argument. But hey, Apple can now impose the change from the position of power. And they have Beats who will follow this change...
doktrin 10y ago
> John Gruber's response Does this guy ever write critically about Apple? I've come across his pieces over the years, and he honestly always comes across like a zealous ideologue.
- jccc 10y ago
  Yeah, pretty much never: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7013002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7013002
  - doktrin 10y ago
    As mentioned, I'm not a regular reader of his, so the fact that I've somehow missed 3 pieces of his published 3+ years ago shouldn't come as much of a surprise. Would you feel less defensive if I just called him a biased partisan instead of using an absolute-sounding word like "ever"?
    - jccc 10y ago
      I think Gruber has become more and more captured by the beat he covers. I really hate it when he uses language only Apple pitch-folk use, like "with iPhone" or "on iPad." I think he's lost more of his objectivity than perhaps he himself realizes. What I object to is the instant dismissal of every Gruber article by people who can't see nuance but only black and white. It's simply not true that he is as partisan and in-the-tank for Apple as many people here think he is. And the point is that this degrades our ability to have meaningful discussion. > Would you feel less defensive [...] Making assumptions about people's biases is exactly my objection about the reflex reaction many HN commenters have toward Gruber.
      - doktrin 10y ago
        > What I object to is the instant dismissal of every Gruber article by people who can't see nuance but only black and white. It's simply not true that he is as partisan and in-the-tank for Apple as many people here think he is. Sounds fair enough, but yet it still seems reasonable to mistrust Gruber's opinions on the basis of him having established a pattern of supporting Apple. The fact that he doesn't literally always come to their defense isn't really all that much of a mitigating factor, since his editorial integrity is already suspect. > Making assumptions about people's biases is exactly my objection about the reflex reaction many HN commenters have toward Gruber. I make decisions based on available information. Your post came across as derisive and snarky.
wtbob 10y ago
If Apple announced that they are adding a new steel-spike-through-the-eye feature, John Gruber would be there to patiently explain how this could be really useful, and how it doesn't kill you unless you actually use it. If Apple announced that they were using ground-up baby bones in their newest iPhone case, John Gruber would be there to patiently explain how there's a surplus of babies in the world, and besides dirty diapers don't really fit in with the whole Apple æsthetic. If Apple announced that from this day forth the only way to get an Apple product would be in exchange for selling oneself into slavery under Apple, John Gruber would be there to patiently explain how this is a revolutionary new welfare programme which will ensure that no Apple customer ever goes to bed hungry. I absolutely love Markdown: he genuinely made the world a better place by coming up with it. But he's about the furthest thing from objective when it comes to Apple.

kbart 10y ago

It's too big (at least according to those "slim" worshiping designers).

creshal 10y ago
Then use the standardized 2.5mm analog audio plug that was designed for space-constrained environments.
- coldtea 10y ago
  Yes, but if you're going to change it, might as well go full on. Why use a same-era technology? Yes, it will be thin too, but it will also have the same issues as going for a digital interface (annoying people with the change etc) -- but without any of its advanced capabilities (e.g. for device control).
mr_sturd 10y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11953691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11953691 I'll point you in the direction of bsimpson's post, just above.

elthran 10y ago

I think the argument that is made is that it's stopping phones becoming thinner - which looking at the size of the jack on my Nexus 5X, I can believe. However, personally, I'll live with a thicker phone if it means I can have a larger capacity battery, let alone a 3.5mm jack

TheGirondin 10y ago
Phones have gotten thin enough. I would rather have more battery capacity and more drop/screen durability.
- maccard 10y ago
  Actions speak louder than words. People continue to say they want more durable phones and longer battery life, but continue to buy thinner and shinier phones.
  - SeanBoocock 10y ago
    I'd be interested to hear and read about examples of this being tested in the market. Have consumers been presented with a choice between phone thinness and battery life on the otherwise same phone hardware?
    - trowawee 10y ago
      http://www.wired.com/2012/04/why-is-htc-choosing-phone-thinness-over-battery-life/ http://www.wired.com/2012/04/why-is-htc-choosing-phone-thinn... > According to Kilburn, HTC’s consumer research shows people prefer thin smartphones — between 8 mm and 10 mm thick — as opposed to thicker devices with longer battery life. One data point, but that's what HTC's claiming their customer research shows, and Apple's trends suggest their internal data points the same way.
      - CaptSpify 10y ago
        Maybe I missed it in the article, but it's interesting to me that people aren't give 2 versions of the same device to choose from. That's like saying people prefer the color blue, because they keep buying blue Accords over red Civics. There's clearly more than the one option going into the choice here.
      - dingaling 10y ago
        > between 8 mm and 10 mm thick That's not particularly thin, both Vivo and Oppo have models under 5mm. The former even managed to keep the 3.5 jack in the 4.75mm X5.

rplst8 10y ago

Comparing the 3.5 mm audio jack to the floppy drive is ridiculous. The jack has become far, far, more ubiquitous than the floppy drive. Additionally, the things that use the jack are often of higher quality and not disposible like a floppy disk was. And this ignores the fact that the floppy disk/drive was technologically usurped by other removable storage formats. The 3.5 mm jack still delivers the absolute best sound quality compared to the other options available on a smart phone. Most, if not all, of the other solutions will be a step backward.

SloopJon 10y ago
Yeah, this is amazing apologism, even for Gruber. "And in five years we’ll look at analog headphone jacks the way we look at all the other legacy ports we’ve abandoned." In five years, there are going to a lot of crappy Lightning earbuds in drawers and landfills.
- smt88 10y ago
  > look at all the other legacy ports we’ve abandoned I miss a lot of those ports. A lot of people do. Fumbling around the office for an Apple-compatible video cable is a relatively frequent event, in my experience.
  - mrob 10y ago
    I still have an old fashioned parallel port (via PCI card) on my PC, because there's no other option for convenient and low-latency GPIO. And I don't remember old fashioned serial ports needing special drivers that would brick unapproved hardware, like some modern FTDI USB serial adaptors did. "Legacy" ports are simple and reliable. Let's not abandon the simple and reliable 3.5mm headphone port.
    - kale 10y ago
      This is a great point. I am gearing up to use a Raspberry Pi in a project for GPIO. It doesn't have to be low-powered necessarily, but the abandonment of the parallel port means that getting GPIO on a PC is more difficult.

cr1895 10y ago

I use higher impedance headphones that the built-in amplifier doesn't power well enough. Therefore I use a separate amp/DAC that feeds through usb from my iPhone. But this certainly describes a very limited subset of people who listen to music through headphones, and even though I don't use it much I wouldn't like to see the analog jack go away.

acqq 10y ago

> If you think so, you can stop reading. I didn't and really there are no arguments there why would it be better for anybody but Apple. The premise of the article is "once it's accepted that the analog jack must go, let's just write whatever." It doesn't even discuss what the advantage for Apple should be. Which would make clearer why it's not for anybody else.

CaptainZapp 10y ago

Should the analog headphone jack remain on our devices forever? If you think so, you can stop reading. Good! Saves me the read.

haddr 10y ago

Floppy disk is a straw man argument. But hey, Apple can now impose the change from the position of power. And they have Beats who will follow this change...

doktrin 10y ago

> John Gruber's response Does this guy ever write critically about Apple? I've come across his pieces over the years, and he honestly always comes across like a zealous ideologue.

jccc 10y ago
Yeah, pretty much never: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7013002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7013002
- doktrin 10y ago
  As mentioned, I'm not a regular reader of his, so the fact that I've somehow missed 3 pieces of his published 3+ years ago shouldn't come as much of a surprise. Would you feel less defensive if I just called him a biased partisan instead of using an absolute-sounding word like "ever"?
  - jccc 10y ago
    I think Gruber has become more and more captured by the beat he covers. I really hate it when he uses language only Apple pitch-folk use, like "with iPhone" or "on iPad." I think he's lost more of his objectivity than perhaps he himself realizes. What I object to is the instant dismissal of every Gruber article by people who can't see nuance but only black and white. It's simply not true that he is as partisan and in-the-tank for Apple as many people here think he is. And the point is that this degrades our ability to have meaningful discussion. > Would you feel less defensive [...] Making assumptions about people's biases is exactly my objection about the reflex reaction many HN commenters have toward Gruber.
    - doktrin 10y ago
      > What I object to is the instant dismissal of every Gruber article by people who can't see nuance but only black and white. It's simply not true that he is as partisan and in-the-tank for Apple as many people here think he is. Sounds fair enough, but yet it still seems reasonable to mistrust Gruber's opinions on the basis of him having established a pattern of supporting Apple. The fact that he doesn't literally always come to their defense isn't really all that much of a mitigating factor, since his editorial integrity is already suspect. > Making assumptions about people's biases is exactly my objection about the reflex reaction many HN commenters have toward Gruber. I make decisions based on available information. Your post came across as derisive and snarky.

wtbob 10y ago

If Apple announced that they are adding a new steel-spike-through-the-eye feature, John Gruber would be there to patiently explain how this could be really useful, and how it doesn't kill you unless you actually use it. If Apple announced that they were using ground-up baby bones in their newest iPhone case, John Gruber would be there to patiently explain how there's a surplus of babies in the world, and besides dirty diapers don't really fit in with the whole Apple æsthetic. If Apple announced that from this day forth the only way to get an Apple product would be in exchange for selling oneself into slavery under Apple, John Gruber would be there to patiently explain how this is a revolutionary new welfare programme which will ensure that no Apple customer ever goes to bed hungry. I absolutely love Markdown: he genuinely made the world a better place by coming up with it. But he's about the furthest thing from objective when it comes to Apple.