28 ms·

I believe the simplest solution on Apple's side is to add a physical indicator of when the camera is on or off. It must not be software controlled, not even on

by vilda 10y ago

I believe the simplest solution on Apple's side is to add a physical indicator of when the camera is on or off. It must not be software controlled, not even on system/FPGA level. Best if attached on power on/off. With a hysteresis so that even quick on/off will be noticed. Edit to add: Here's what may happen if the indicator is software controlled: "iSeeYou: Disabling the MacBook Webcam Indicator LED" https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/bitstream/handle/1774.2/36569/camera.pdf https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/bitstream/handle/1774.2...

dkersten 10y ago
The problem is, how do I the consumer know that its not software controlled? I have to trust Apple or whoever that its not.
- vilda 10y ago
  If you use Apple hardware, then you trust them on many other levels. As for this particular feature, some hobbies or profs (like fixit) may have a good chance to disassemble it and check.
- demarq 10y ago
  The internet is full of people who will take it all apart and test the crap out of it! It would be quite a claim and people really do love to put apple products to the test. see: bendgate.
- alister 10y ago
  Indeed. I had a ThinkPad with a physical switch to turn wifi on and off. The OS got into a weird state one day (a driver or OS bug) and I was shocked to discover that wifi was working even though the switch was in the off position. So even on a ThinkPad, these physical switches are fake, i.e., they are just software settings checked by the OS, and not a hardware override.
  - rhizome 10y ago
    Which is why I was glad Lenovo made it possible for me to order my current laptop without a webcam at all. I can just plug one in if I need it.
js8 10y ago
Old Treos (and maybe Palm Pilots) had a similar switch to sound, which was great. You could turn it off and be completely sure that no software error can cause any sound whatsoever.
samuellb 10y ago
Or a lid that can be slided over it. As a bonus, it would also protect the camera from being scratched
- vilda 10y ago
  I'm not convinced Apple design department will allow that.
frgewut 10y ago
If you enable camera for a fraction of second nobody would notice the change of indicator.
- MichaelBurge 10y ago
  You can have the hardware display for a minimum of 3 seconds.
  - frgewut 10y ago
    Even that wouldn't be enough. And for some environments (e.g. living room) you would need super bright indicator accompanied by sound.
alister 10y ago
Apple's very first camera accessory, the iSight camera, had a physical iris that you could open and close for privacy: http://static1.squarespace.com/static/50271a61c4aab6c54f9af5ee/t/531cc540e4b0b17f9741989f/1394394435408/DSC06402.jpg?format=1500w http://static1.squarespace.com/static/50271a61c4aab6c54f9af5... I thought that was beautiful UI, since you knew that the lens was being blocked; you didn't have to trust that the software/firmware was doing the right thing.
jimboj 10y ago
Is there any evidence of this being possible on Macs made after 2008?
EvgeniyZh 10y ago
I had some Asus laptop which had a switch to physically close webcam: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/ASUS_N73SV_A1_N73SV_A1_17_3_Notebook_Computer_754854.jpg http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/ASUS_N73S... If you're paranoid, it could be transparent for IR or something though.

by vilda 10y ago

dkersten 10y ago

The problem is, how do I the consumer know that its not software controlled? I have to trust Apple or whoever that its not.

vilda 10y ago
If you use Apple hardware, then you trust them on many other levels. As for this particular feature, some hobbies or profs (like fixit) may have a good chance to disassemble it and check.
demarq 10y ago
The internet is full of people who will take it all apart and test the crap out of it! It would be quite a claim and people really do love to put apple products to the test. see: bendgate.
alister 10y ago
Indeed. I had a ThinkPad with a physical switch to turn wifi on and off. The OS got into a weird state one day (a driver or OS bug) and I was shocked to discover that wifi was working even though the switch was in the off position. So even on a ThinkPad, these physical switches are fake, i.e., they are just software settings checked by the OS, and not a hardware override.
- rhizome 10y ago
  Which is why I was glad Lenovo made it possible for me to order my current laptop without a webcam at all. I can just plug one in if I need it.

js8 10y ago

Old Treos (and maybe Palm Pilots) had a similar switch to sound, which was great. You could turn it off and be completely sure that no software error can cause any sound whatsoever.

samuellb 10y ago

Or a lid that can be slided over it. As a bonus, it would also protect the camera from being scratched

vilda 10y ago
I'm not convinced Apple design department will allow that.

frgewut 10y ago

If you enable camera for a fraction of second nobody would notice the change of indicator.

MichaelBurge 10y ago
You can have the hardware display for a minimum of 3 seconds.
- frgewut 10y ago
  Even that wouldn't be enough. And for some environments (e.g. living room) you would need super bright indicator accompanied by sound.

alister 10y ago

Apple's very first camera accessory, the iSight camera, had a physical iris that you could open and close for privacy: http://static1.squarespace.com/static/50271a61c4aab6c54f9af5ee/t/531cc540e4b0b17f9741989f/1394394435408/DSC06402.jpg?format=1500w http://static1.squarespace.com/static/50271a61c4aab6c54f9af5... I thought that was beautiful UI, since you knew that the lens was being blocked; you didn't have to trust that the software/firmware was doing the right thing.

jimboj 10y ago

Is there any evidence of this being possible on Macs made after 2008?

EvgeniyZh 10y ago

I had some Asus laptop which had a switch to physically close webcam: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/ASUS_N73SV_A1_N73SV_A1_17_3_Notebook_Computer_754854.jpg http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/ASUS_N73S... If you're paranoid, it could be transparent for IR or something though.