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>Decent imitations of highly processed meat exist already I am a meat eater and I can tell you that, in my experience, this simply isn't the case. Your opinio

>Decent imitations of highly processed meat exist already I am a meat eater and I can tell you that, in my experience, this simply isn't the case. Your opinion is colored by the fact that you really, really, want it to be a decent imitation because you're a vegetarian. Every imitation meat product I have ever tasted has been immediately recognizable as such, and was almost inedible. Unfortunately, the idea of fake meat that people won't notice is, at least today, a vegetarian fantasy.

nxzero 10y ago
Just to be clear, you've done blind taste tests of all the products they mentioned within the recent past, right?
athenot 10y ago
I'm also an omnivore and have made the same observation. I think the larger issue is why do we stubbornly try to make one thing taste like another? I may be a meat-eater but I can fill my heart's content at a number of Indian vegetarian places, to the point where I don't realize I didn't eat meat. The meal as a whole is fully satiating and nourishing. In the same vein, I love tofu when it tastes like tofu. But when some try to make it ressemble meat, it simply becomes bad tofu. Beans are awesome and can be combined in so many ways. Bean burgers are just over-seasoned patties posing as meat. Maybe it's my French background showing but I prefer minimal processing, or processing that brings out the natural flavors of the ingredient, not trying to hide them.
- downandout 10y ago
  >I think the larger issue is why do we stubbornly try to make one thing taste like another? In my opinion, it's because vegetarians know that their diet is an extreme departure from the norm, and anything they can do to feel more included in the mainstream, they will do. I have relatives that are vegetarians, and being vegetarian limits their social lives to some degree (I'm sure the impact is partially dependent on where you live; this comment is based on my observations only). For example, they can't eat at certain restaurants, and they tend to not bother trying to host dinners at their homes for people with normal diets (or worse, they do host, and guests don't come back after the first time). One of my vegetarian relatives has children, and it impacts their social lives as well - kids in households with mainstream diets usually aren't big fans of tofu and aren't going to be hanging out in vegetarian households as often. Everyone wants to feel normal, even when their lifestyle choices are far from it. This, in my opinion, is the driving force behind the quest for "vegemeat".
  - ergothus 10y ago
    Your response is logical, but ultimately not true for me. As a vegetarian, I'm weird. As a picky vegetarian, I'm even weirder. That's fine, I'm used to weird, and I don't expect people to cater to my weirdness. For me, it's not about specific taste. When I went vegetarian, I lost the taste for red meat. Last time I had it (10+ years now) it was NASTY - I remembered it tasting good, but it doesn't meet (ha!) that memory. No, it's mostly about texture. I want something that tastes _good_ (for however "good" is defined) and has the right chewiness to my mouth. It's also about convenience - My wife and I have "meat cookies", which are morningstar "burgers" fixed on a george foreman grill, and after a few minutes of cooling, are able to be picked up and eaten like a cookie. The taste is good, but it could be better. Nothing about this experience is like a normal meat-eater. I will concede that it'd be really nice to go to a restaurant and have an easy time picking out food from the menu. That's less about being normal and more about being able to eat when hungry. So no - I don't think my desire for meat alternatives is about a desperate need to feel like I belong. Its about having tasty options that didn't kill animals. For many vegetarians straight vegetables can fulfill that need. Not so for me.
    - downandout 10y ago
      >Last time I had it (10+ years now) it was NASTY - I remembered it tasting good, but it doesn't meet (ha!) that memory. You seem very self-aware, which I view as a rare and positive trait. So here's a question that I am genuinely curious about: in light of the fact that you said you remembered meat tasting good prior to becoming a vegetarian, do you believe that it is unpalatable to you now because it actually tastes bad (i.e. your brain actually no longer likes the taste), or is it the thoughts that you associate with meat (those that drove you to be a vegetarian in the first place - perhaps that a cow was killed for it, or its impact on the environment)?
      - ergothus 10y ago
        Pretty sure it was specific to the actual taste my brain was receiving - I consider pork to marginally ethically worse than beef, yet pork retained its good taste to me (at least then, no idea now, but I assume that's still true). Chicken and turkey and fish likewise remained tasty, but red meat tasted very greasy, a touch bitter, and otherwise tasteless. It was actually very weird - I'd smell it, and remember the good taste, then have some and be quite startled how bad it seemed to me. (and again, other meats did not have that reaction). I have no idea if this is a matter of personal chemistry, a more intricate mental gymnastics than the one you propose, or is actually commonplace. To this day, the smell of KFC original recipe will make me salivate. (I once found an Indian place that had a veggie Pakora that tasted JUST LIKE THAT BATTER. Man I miss that) For background: I went full vegetarian for 6 months in college, but stopped when I was seeing stars constantly. It's easy to get decent nutrition with a vegetarian diet, particularly as I'm not active, but microwaved rice and beans and mac n'cheese (my college diet) wasn't healthy enough. So I returned meat to my diet and that's when I found I didn't like red meat anymore. I imagine I could've taught myself to like it again, but I was content with the other meat options and had no more health issues. After a few years like this I noticed that a few foods (e.g. lettuce, baby spinach) that were previously on my "ick" list were now palatable, so I started dropping a meat a year, giving my taste and lifestyle time to adjust. After a few years of that, I was fully vegetarian, and my diet has expanded, though I still have a depressingly large "these foods don't taste good to me" list. Why do I think pork is marginally than beef? I grew up in a rural-ish* area, and have a lower opinion of cows than pigs, in terms of intelligence and awareness. I similarly think a turkey is smarter than chicken, but we are talking literal bird brains at that point. * rural-ish = a large town surrounded by farmland. State College, PA, for the curious.
- zem 10y ago
  > why do we stubbornly try to make one thing taste like another because lots of people love meat but dislike the way it is obtained. compare fake cheese and icecream for the lactose intolerant - they love the taste of cheese and icecream, just not its effects on them.
  - Declanomous 10y ago
    Cheese and ice cream for the lactose intolerant are the same as normal cheese and ice cream, just with the lactose removed. Vegan cheese is completely different from lactose-free cheese, and is one of the worst things I have ever eaten. It does not retain a single attribute that makes normal cheese appealing, but still manages to smell like an old sock.
    - zem 10y ago
      i have a vegan friend who swears by her brand of fake cheese; she's even made bruschetta with it and had it turn out okay. also i didn't know you got actual lactose-free ice cream; the lactose-intolerant people i've known usually ate coconut-based ice creams. i wonder if any of them had tried the lactose free stuff but found they were more used to the coconut.
      - Declanomous 10y ago
        Lactaid makes lactose-free versions of many dairy products that usually contain lactose, including ice cream. A special process isn't necessary for most cheeses since they naturally have very low levels of lactose due, since the lactose doesn't really get caught up in the coagulation. I've never had coconut ice cream, but I've had soy ice cream on several occasions and I thought it wasn't bad. (Shout-out to Chocolate Shoppe Ice Cream, a Wisconsin manufacturer who does a great job of accommodating a wide variety of dietary restrictions) I'm sure your friend finds her brand of fake cheese palatable, but I seriously doubt it bears any resemblance to real cheese. One of my close friends was a vegetarian because she couldn't give up cheese, until the point where her conscience overwhelmed her and she became a total vegan. She's been looking for a vegan cheese for the past seven or eight years, and I've unfortunately shared in the experience. I'm comfortable with the claim that right now, vegan cheese is not a replacement for real cheese. The problem with vegan cheese is that vegan foods are generally only convincing substitutes in a specific domain. Ice cream works because ice cream is always frozen. Nobody complains if your vegan ice cream doesn't look like ice cream when melted or boiling. On the other hand, the same cheese can be melted, broiled, burnt, shredded, or some combination of the 4 depending on the application. Plus, it has to taste like cheese too. In some sense, it's a bit like vegan bacon, which generally just tastes a bit smokey, and I've never found any that has the crispy texture that melts in the mouth like real bacon. Fake cheese just has a really ... off texture, and it's flavor is one-dimensional.
- Mz 10y ago
  I think the larger issue is why do we stubbornly try to make one thing taste like another? For the same reason that people use birth control instead of abstinence: People like to "have their cake and eat it too." If we can get the part of something we value minus some downside we deem undesirable, we are all over it.
jimktrains2 10y ago
> Every imitation meat product I have ever tasted has been immediately recognizable as such, and was almost inedible. I am a vegetarian, and have been for about 8 years. I agree that the taste isn't a duplicate, but inedible that's a stretcher? > Unfortunately, the idea of fake meat that people won't notice is, at least today, a vegetarian fantasy. And I never understood why. I like the taste of vegetables. Needing things that duplicate meat in taste and texture feels unnecessary and almost ... not quite, I can't find the right word ... hypocritical -- as if humans need that flavor?
- douche 10y ago
  > inedible that's a stretcher? Technically, cardboard and shoe leather are edible, if you boil them enough, but you tend not to go out of your way to eat them, unless there's a bunch of people with pointy-murder-sticks outside and you've already gone through all the dogs, cats, rats, and insects.
- tremon 10y ago
  I think the whole idea behind "fake meat" components is due to the lack of vegetarian dishes in Western cuisine (speaking specifically for NL here, don't know much about the rest of Europe or US). That situation is changing very slowly, but ten to twenty years ago there was almost nothing. Still, these imitation components strike me as tacky or cheap knockoffs. Even worse, for me they signal that even vegetarians can't go without the taste (or structure) of meat. I really wonder if their availability is a net positive for reducing meat consumption. I consider myself quite a meat-eater, but I do enjoy properly thought-out vegetarian dishes (like Thai or Indian vegetable curry's), and I'm a big fan of main dish salads (usually with Feta cheese, walnuts or raisins). Still, when I do need to "replace" meat, I'd much rather go with nuts (mostly cashew, pine and almond) than any of the meat imitations.
cheetos 10y ago
Why so dismissive? Your opinion is also colored by your experience and preferences, and is no more valid than his. Also, there is no requirement that meat substitutes be indistinguishable from meat to be considered edible.
ergothus 10y ago
...I'm going to have to go with the meat eaters that ARE fooled by the meat alternatives and found them quite (note I mentioned it is a decent imitation of "highly processed meat", not "quality" meat) vs your lone opinion of my burning desire to be normal.
VLM 10y ago
With all due respect we can agree on your factual observations, yet while you're pessimistic about replacing a top quality perfectly grilled London Broil steak, I'm feeling optimistic about replacing a mcdonalds hamburger, which also is immediately recognizable as almost inedible. How about that stick of beef jerky I carry when I go out hiking ... replacing something that artificial with something plant based doesn't sound overly challenging and maybe it would have better shelf life? Or the mystery meat in canned store bought soups?
- djrogers 10y ago
  > How about that stick of beef jerky I carry when I go out hiking ... replacing something that artificial Artificial? Where the heck are you buying your jerky? Jerky is one of the least artificial mass produced foods you can find - a big hunk of solid beef, dried, and flavored with some salt and salt-relatives. If at anything else it's not jerky.
- Turing_Machine 10y ago
  "a mcdonalds hamburger, which also is immediately recognizable as almost inedible." People don't buy 6 million units per day when something is "almost inedible".
  - imtringued 10y ago
    I think that highlights how subjective the word "inedible" is.
  - VLM 10y ago
    Insert standard argument about zillions of flies can't all be wrong WRT poo. Also the argument doesn't depend on a specific "meat" or seller or sales figures. How about mystery meat products at the food store like "olive loaf bologna" not even sure what kind of animal that comes from...
    - Turing_Machine 10y ago
      That "standard argument" doesn't apply here. The OP claimed that McDonalds burgers were "inedible". Observably, millions of people do eat them, therefore the OP is wrong. That says nothing about the quality of the burgers, or whether eating them is a good idea, or anything else. It merely demonstrates that people do, in fact, find them edible. "How about mystery meat products at the food store like "olive loaf bologna"" What about it? People obviously buy it and presumably eat it, or it wouldn't be in the store.
tamana 10y ago
Your opinion is colored by the fact that you really want to hate vegetarian meat, as is seen by calling it "inedible" when in reality is is merely different and bland.
imtringued 10y ago
I've eaten "imitation meat" at my friend's and sure it's not the same thing as the real deal but if real meat suddenly disappears I wouldn't be unhappy with the "fake" meat. (I'm not a vegan if that wasn't obvious and my friend isn't either but he eats very little real meat)

nxzero 10y ago

Just to be clear, you've done blind taste tests of all the products they mentioned within the recent past, right?

athenot 10y ago

I'm also an omnivore and have made the same observation. I think the larger issue is why do we stubbornly try to make one thing taste like another? I may be a meat-eater but I can fill my heart's content at a number of Indian vegetarian places, to the point where I don't realize I didn't eat meat. The meal as a whole is fully satiating and nourishing. In the same vein, I love tofu when it tastes like tofu. But when some try to make it ressemble meat, it simply becomes bad tofu. Beans are awesome and can be combined in so many ways. Bean burgers are just over-seasoned patties posing as meat. Maybe it's my French background showing but I prefer minimal processing, or processing that brings out the natural flavors of the ingredient, not trying to hide them.

downandout 10y ago
>I think the larger issue is why do we stubbornly try to make one thing taste like another? In my opinion, it's because vegetarians know that their diet is an extreme departure from the norm, and anything they can do to feel more included in the mainstream, they will do. I have relatives that are vegetarians, and being vegetarian limits their social lives to some degree (I'm sure the impact is partially dependent on where you live; this comment is based on my observations only). For example, they can't eat at certain restaurants, and they tend to not bother trying to host dinners at their homes for people with normal diets (or worse, they do host, and guests don't come back after the first time). One of my vegetarian relatives has children, and it impacts their social lives as well - kids in households with mainstream diets usually aren't big fans of tofu and aren't going to be hanging out in vegetarian households as often. Everyone wants to feel normal, even when their lifestyle choices are far from it. This, in my opinion, is the driving force behind the quest for "vegemeat".
- ergothus 10y ago
  Your response is logical, but ultimately not true for me. As a vegetarian, I'm weird. As a picky vegetarian, I'm even weirder. That's fine, I'm used to weird, and I don't expect people to cater to my weirdness. For me, it's not about specific taste. When I went vegetarian, I lost the taste for red meat. Last time I had it (10+ years now) it was NASTY - I remembered it tasting good, but it doesn't meet (ha!) that memory. No, it's mostly about texture. I want something that tastes _good_ (for however "good" is defined) and has the right chewiness to my mouth. It's also about convenience - My wife and I have "meat cookies", which are morningstar "burgers" fixed on a george foreman grill, and after a few minutes of cooling, are able to be picked up and eaten like a cookie. The taste is good, but it could be better. Nothing about this experience is like a normal meat-eater. I will concede that it'd be really nice to go to a restaurant and have an easy time picking out food from the menu. That's less about being normal and more about being able to eat when hungry. So no - I don't think my desire for meat alternatives is about a desperate need to feel like I belong. Its about having tasty options that didn't kill animals. For many vegetarians straight vegetables can fulfill that need. Not so for me.
  - downandout 10y ago
    >Last time I had it (10+ years now) it was NASTY - I remembered it tasting good, but it doesn't meet (ha!) that memory. You seem very self-aware, which I view as a rare and positive trait. So here's a question that I am genuinely curious about: in light of the fact that you said you remembered meat tasting good prior to becoming a vegetarian, do you believe that it is unpalatable to you now because it actually tastes bad (i.e. your brain actually no longer likes the taste), or is it the thoughts that you associate with meat (those that drove you to be a vegetarian in the first place - perhaps that a cow was killed for it, or its impact on the environment)?
    - ergothus 10y ago
      Pretty sure it was specific to the actual taste my brain was receiving - I consider pork to marginally ethically worse than beef, yet pork retained its good taste to me (at least then, no idea now, but I assume that's still true). Chicken and turkey and fish likewise remained tasty, but red meat tasted very greasy, a touch bitter, and otherwise tasteless. It was actually very weird - I'd smell it, and remember the good taste, then have some and be quite startled how bad it seemed to me. (and again, other meats did not have that reaction). I have no idea if this is a matter of personal chemistry, a more intricate mental gymnastics than the one you propose, or is actually commonplace. To this day, the smell of KFC original recipe will make me salivate. (I once found an Indian place that had a veggie Pakora that tasted JUST LIKE THAT BATTER. Man I miss that) For background: I went full vegetarian for 6 months in college, but stopped when I was seeing stars constantly. It's easy to get decent nutrition with a vegetarian diet, particularly as I'm not active, but microwaved rice and beans and mac n'cheese (my college diet) wasn't healthy enough. So I returned meat to my diet and that's when I found I didn't like red meat anymore. I imagine I could've taught myself to like it again, but I was content with the other meat options and had no more health issues. After a few years like this I noticed that a few foods (e.g. lettuce, baby spinach) that were previously on my "ick" list were now palatable, so I started dropping a meat a year, giving my taste and lifestyle time to adjust. After a few years of that, I was fully vegetarian, and my diet has expanded, though I still have a depressingly large "these foods don't taste good to me" list. Why do I think pork is marginally than beef? I grew up in a rural-ish* area, and have a lower opinion of cows than pigs, in terms of intelligence and awareness. I similarly think a turkey is smarter than chicken, but we are talking literal bird brains at that point. * rural-ish = a large town surrounded by farmland. State College, PA, for the curious.
zem 10y ago
> why do we stubbornly try to make one thing taste like another because lots of people love meat but dislike the way it is obtained. compare fake cheese and icecream for the lactose intolerant - they love the taste of cheese and icecream, just not its effects on them.
- Declanomous 10y ago
  Cheese and ice cream for the lactose intolerant are the same as normal cheese and ice cream, just with the lactose removed. Vegan cheese is completely different from lactose-free cheese, and is one of the worst things I have ever eaten. It does not retain a single attribute that makes normal cheese appealing, but still manages to smell like an old sock.
  - zem 10y ago
    i have a vegan friend who swears by her brand of fake cheese; she's even made bruschetta with it and had it turn out okay. also i didn't know you got actual lactose-free ice cream; the lactose-intolerant people i've known usually ate coconut-based ice creams. i wonder if any of them had tried the lactose free stuff but found they were more used to the coconut.
    - Declanomous 10y ago
      Lactaid makes lactose-free versions of many dairy products that usually contain lactose, including ice cream. A special process isn't necessary for most cheeses since they naturally have very low levels of lactose due, since the lactose doesn't really get caught up in the coagulation. I've never had coconut ice cream, but I've had soy ice cream on several occasions and I thought it wasn't bad. (Shout-out to Chocolate Shoppe Ice Cream, a Wisconsin manufacturer who does a great job of accommodating a wide variety of dietary restrictions) I'm sure your friend finds her brand of fake cheese palatable, but I seriously doubt it bears any resemblance to real cheese. One of my close friends was a vegetarian because she couldn't give up cheese, until the point where her conscience overwhelmed her and she became a total vegan. She's been looking for a vegan cheese for the past seven or eight years, and I've unfortunately shared in the experience. I'm comfortable with the claim that right now, vegan cheese is not a replacement for real cheese. The problem with vegan cheese is that vegan foods are generally only convincing substitutes in a specific domain. Ice cream works because ice cream is always frozen. Nobody complains if your vegan ice cream doesn't look like ice cream when melted or boiling. On the other hand, the same cheese can be melted, broiled, burnt, shredded, or some combination of the 4 depending on the application. Plus, it has to taste like cheese too. In some sense, it's a bit like vegan bacon, which generally just tastes a bit smokey, and I've never found any that has the crispy texture that melts in the mouth like real bacon. Fake cheese just has a really ... off texture, and it's flavor is one-dimensional.
Mz 10y ago
I think the larger issue is why do we stubbornly try to make one thing taste like another? For the same reason that people use birth control instead of abstinence: People like to "have their cake and eat it too." If we can get the part of something we value minus some downside we deem undesirable, we are all over it.

jimktrains2 10y ago

> Every imitation meat product I have ever tasted has been immediately recognizable as such, and was almost inedible. I am a vegetarian, and have been for about 8 years. I agree that the taste isn't a duplicate, but inedible that's a stretcher? > Unfortunately, the idea of fake meat that people won't notice is, at least today, a vegetarian fantasy. And I never understood why. I like the taste of vegetables. Needing things that duplicate meat in taste and texture feels unnecessary and almost ... not quite, I can't find the right word ... hypocritical -- as if humans need that flavor?

douche 10y ago
> inedible that's a stretcher? Technically, cardboard and shoe leather are edible, if you boil them enough, but you tend not to go out of your way to eat them, unless there's a bunch of people with pointy-murder-sticks outside and you've already gone through all the dogs, cats, rats, and insects.
tremon 10y ago
I think the whole idea behind "fake meat" components is due to the lack of vegetarian dishes in Western cuisine (speaking specifically for NL here, don't know much about the rest of Europe or US). That situation is changing very slowly, but ten to twenty years ago there was almost nothing. Still, these imitation components strike me as tacky or cheap knockoffs. Even worse, for me they signal that even vegetarians can't go without the taste (or structure) of meat. I really wonder if their availability is a net positive for reducing meat consumption. I consider myself quite a meat-eater, but I do enjoy properly thought-out vegetarian dishes (like Thai or Indian vegetable curry's), and I'm a big fan of main dish salads (usually with Feta cheese, walnuts or raisins). Still, when I do need to "replace" meat, I'd much rather go with nuts (mostly cashew, pine and almond) than any of the meat imitations.

cheetos 10y ago

Why so dismissive? Your opinion is also colored by your experience and preferences, and is no more valid than his. Also, there is no requirement that meat substitutes be indistinguishable from meat to be considered edible.

ergothus 10y ago

...I'm going to have to go with the meat eaters that ARE fooled by the meat alternatives and found them quite (note I mentioned it is a decent imitation of "highly processed meat", not "quality" meat) vs your lone opinion of my burning desire to be normal.

VLM 10y ago

With all due respect we can agree on your factual observations, yet while you're pessimistic about replacing a top quality perfectly grilled London Broil steak, I'm feeling optimistic about replacing a mcdonalds hamburger, which also is immediately recognizable as almost inedible. How about that stick of beef jerky I carry when I go out hiking ... replacing something that artificial with something plant based doesn't sound overly challenging and maybe it would have better shelf life? Or the mystery meat in canned store bought soups?

djrogers 10y ago
> How about that stick of beef jerky I carry when I go out hiking ... replacing something that artificial Artificial? Where the heck are you buying your jerky? Jerky is one of the least artificial mass produced foods you can find - a big hunk of solid beef, dried, and flavored with some salt and salt-relatives. If at anything else it's not jerky.
Turing_Machine 10y ago
"a mcdonalds hamburger, which also is immediately recognizable as almost inedible." People don't buy 6 million units per day when something is "almost inedible".
- imtringued 10y ago
  I think that highlights how subjective the word "inedible" is.
- VLM 10y ago
  Insert standard argument about zillions of flies can't all be wrong WRT poo. Also the argument doesn't depend on a specific "meat" or seller or sales figures. How about mystery meat products at the food store like "olive loaf bologna" not even sure what kind of animal that comes from...
  - Turing_Machine 10y ago
    That "standard argument" doesn't apply here. The OP claimed that McDonalds burgers were "inedible". Observably, millions of people do eat them, therefore the OP is wrong. That says nothing about the quality of the burgers, or whether eating them is a good idea, or anything else. It merely demonstrates that people do, in fact, find them edible. "How about mystery meat products at the food store like "olive loaf bologna"" What about it? People obviously buy it and presumably eat it, or it wouldn't be in the store.

tamana 10y ago

Your opinion is colored by the fact that you really want to hate vegetarian meat, as is seen by calling it "inedible" when in reality is is merely different and bland.

imtringued 10y ago

I've eaten "imitation meat" at my friend's and sure it's not the same thing as the real deal but if real meat suddenly disappears I wouldn't be unhappy with the "fake" meat. (I'm not a vegan if that wasn't obvious and my friend isn't either but he eats very little real meat)