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When I visit India and eat vegetarian food properly prepared by a culture that has refined vegetarian cuisine beyond "fake meat", I don't miss meat at all. Muc

When I visit India and eat vegetarian food properly prepared by a culture that has refined vegetarian cuisine beyond "fake meat", I don't miss meat at all. Much of Western food is only expected to be an accompaniment to a meat dish, which is why you can't just cut meat out and eat the vegetable dishes you're used to when you're eating meat as well, imnsho.

arjie 10y ago
To present the other side, I lived in India a long time and vegetarian cuisine there always left me unsatisfied. If, for some reason, I had to eat a vegetarian meal (say I'm going to a Brahmin wedding), I'd just eat meat before I left for it because the alternative was to be unhappy.
ergothus 10y ago
I'm a huge fan of Indian food. (Because it's tasty, AND because they are one of the few foreign countries that uses the same definition of "vegetarian" that I do). That said, I actually have a fairly limited range there too: if you don't like yogurt, dill, bell peppers, cucumbers, or okra, a lot gets cut out. That's on me an my tastes, not the Indian food, but it's still a reality I have to deal with.
- delecti 10y ago
  > the same definition of "vegetarian" that I do Can you elaborate?
  - matt4077 10y ago
    Well, in Africa chicken isn't regarded as meat, to give one example from my own experience. In western countries, there's some ambiguity around eggs, fish, and possibly lard but only as far as vegetarians can't all agree on those either.
    - snuxoll 10y ago
      Even as a meat eater I don't eat fish unless I caught it myself. Commercial fishing has gotten out of control and I refuse to contribute to the practice, as well as the shocking frequency that fish are mislabeled.
      - ajmurmann 10y ago
        This is such a huge gripe for me. I love fish but hate the industry. In fact I wish we could have a 5 year moratorium on any fishing. Fishing is the best example for the tragedy of the commons.
        iamdave 10y ago
        There was an episode of Archer recently that was a crossover with the old Sealab cartoon (2021, the "spoof" version to be specific) and Captain Murphy was holding the world hostage with "nukes" (he didn't have any nukes) in demand for a moratorium on fishing. It wasn't the first time I had heard demands for such a pause, but it was definitely a position I wasn't expecting to see echoed in Archer. In some other cartoon as a wink and a nod to the parents, sure. But definitely not Archer.
    - pyre 10y ago
      Also, gelatin is considered vegetarian by some, or at least there are some vegetarians that don't realize that gelatin is an animal product (just some sort of "mystery" ingredient, I guess).
      - Xixi 10y ago
        For those who are wondering if there are alternative to animal gelatin, Japanese have been using agar [1] (they call it kanten) for centuries to prepare sweets. It's similar to gelatin, but made from algae, so it is absolutely vegetarian. As far as I know all Japanese traditional sweets that require something gelatinous are made with it, so they are safe to it if you are vegetarian/vegan. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agar
  - ergothus 10y ago
    Sure. Usually it boils down to whether fish/seafood is considered vegetarian, but sometimes it also includes broth or animal byproducts. For the purposes of definition, I use the below, which appears to be the general consensus definitions in America, though I'm sure some will dispute this. Vegetarian: (also called ovo-lacto vegetarian) No meat (including fish/seafood). Eggs, dairy, and honey are okay. Byproducts that involved killing animals are not. Those vegetarians that are so for health reasons often skip that last part, and many vegetarians only go "so deep" when looking, so they don't worry if bleached (with animal bone) flour was used, or if the cheese was made with animal-based rennet. Lastly, insects and some low-nervous system mussels occupy a questionable space that isn't often discussed at large, but like the "so deep" issue should likely be considered "not strictly vegetarian but some vegetarians have exceptions". Vegan: Vegetarian, plus no eggs, dairy, or honey. They tend to look deeper and more strictly than vegetarians, though the general belief that you shouldn't be killing things is shared between those vegetarians and vegans that are so for ethical reasons. (other vegan restrictions aren't food based) Pescatarian: Vegetarian, but fish and seafood are permitted. Some examples: In the American southeast (not a foreign country, but might as well be) pork is as much a "spice" as a food. Many vegetable offerings at restaurants are seasoned with pork. At one cafe in Atlanta I asked if a soup was vegetarian and they said yes...then after a moment said "but it does have chicken stock", because in their mind anything that wasn't "chunks of meat" was vegetarian. (also, since I have the pulpit, as a once lover of ham, what the south does to ham is a crime. It has two varieties: salty, and really salty. I forget which is "country ham" and which is "virginia ham", but both made it easier for me to drop pork from my diet.) In Chinese food, fish is generally considered vegetarian, and oyster sauce is particularly prevalent. If I request something "vegetarian", they'll avoid using pork-based seasonings, but will include oyster sauce unless I'm very explicit and make a pain of myself. My Japanese friends tell me there's no point in me trying to eat there. The only option that doesn't involve seafood is "monk training food", which is...not intended to be tasty. Thai food and Vietnamese food have, I think, some of the same issues. I know curry paste is often made with shrimp, and where an Indian restaurant will pay attention, Thai places often won't. (That said, I love Thai, so when I find a place where I trust the staff "gets it", they get a lot of business) I wasn't vegetarian when I was in Europe, so I don't know how easy it is to be vegetarian there, but I know a lot of places that had a strong Catholic influence consider fish to be "non-meat". In many of these places I could try to be explicit, but that's often painful because there are sometimes language issues, because I don't want to make a pain of myself, and because some places leave me not trusting that the result is actually vegetarian despite my explicitness. In contrast, Indian restaurants tend to: 1) Share the same definition, so we have no language issues 2) Take the vegetarian/non-vegetarian divide seriously (Many Indians are vegetarian or part-time vegetarian for religious reasons), so my requests are neither a pain nor is there often a worry that I'll get something animal-based anyway. A friend of mine from India once told me "if a mob would burn down your restaurant if you got caught mixing meat and vegetarian, you'd take it seriously too". I still don't if she was joking with me, and if so to what degree.
  - stonemetal 10y ago
    In japan seafood isn't considered meat. If you do then it can be pretty hard. Also, as far as I understand, they don't use a lot of vegetable oil. So things that would be ok in the west, like bread, more than likely have lard in them.
  - sdenton4 10y ago
    My definition, which tell people at restaurants, is 'nothing that had eyes except potatoes.' it's succinct, and everyone gets it. I'm fine with eggs, though, so YMMV.
    - eru 10y ago
      Leaves a few loopholes, but nothing anybody could exploit with anything they had at a typical restaurant. And easy to understand.
wil421 10y ago
Not a vegetarian but I do go out with many Indian colleagues who are vegetarian and have family members or friends who dont eat meat. I do agree with the assumption that western vegetarians tend to want meat replacements. The biggest difference for me was seeing how a lot of Indian cuisine is actually unhealthy. Most everything is fried in oil or has so much clarified butter its unhealthy. The Indian diet (at least the people in my office) seems more unhealthy vs the western vegetarian diet and several people in my office have had heart attacks.
- amalag 10y ago
  Traditional Indian food is perfectly healthy. Fresh vegetables, grains, etc. Even clarified butter used to be prepared differently.
  - nostrebored 10y ago
    People still think that oil and butter are bad for you, despite the mountains of research that saturated fat is not unhealthy, and the new research regarding weight loss that the high fat Mediterranean diet is better than low fat diets. The only reasonable complaints re Indian food are high carbs and low amounts of high quality protein
- mycodebreaks 10y ago
  It is true for most of the restaurants serving different cuisines. Home-prepared Thai food is healthier than the food at Thai restaurants. Replace Thai with Chinese, Burmese, Vietnamese, Indian, and it would still hold true.
  - cthalupa 10y ago
    Having eaten a lot of home-prepared South Indian food, I'm not sure I really agree. Home cooked food has the ability to be healthier than restaurant prepared, but I don't know if there's enough data to really claim one way or the other - homecooked is not healthier just by virtue of being homecooked.
walrus01 10y ago
As much as I enjoy Indian vegetarian food, as a person that does eat meat, there are also a bewildering variety of dishes possible with the same spices and ingredients with meat added. One example is what you can find in Pakistani cuisine where the vast majority of the population is Muslim and does eat meat. There is of course a great deal of culinary overlap in the Punjab region, food is much older than the 1947 partition. If you ever visit Lahore I highly recommend trying the local restaurants.
- Manishearth 10y ago
  Oh, nonvegetarian food from the subcontinent can be amazing. Even from Hindu-majority areas -- Indian (or even Hindu) vegetarians are the minority (30%), just a generally affluent and vocal minority. Aside from beef, of course.
  - vshan 10y ago
    You need to ask your Keralite friends to prepare some beef.
    - Manishearth 10y ago
      Oh, not saying Indian beef cuisine sucks, saying beef-eating is not in the majority :)
  - hx87 10y ago
    Not to mention pork as well--it seems like in a lot of places with arid climates and Islamic influence, people don't eat pork even if there is no religious prohibition per se. That's why I like Greek, Goan and northwestern Chinese food--it has all the tastiness of middle eastern & central/south Asian food, but with my favorite meat.
rjbwork 10y ago
I love indian food, and the vegetarian options are superb. That said, I still adore tandoori chicken. >.>
Manishearth 10y ago
This. I'm Indian origin. At home, we usually eat vegetarian food (not a religious thing, it just is). I don't miss non vegetarian food at all. But if I go out to eat I usually have non vegetarian food.
fallinghawks 10y ago
If I had to give up meat, south Indian would be a lifesaver. It's so flavorful, you come out feeling filled and sated, and yet your stomach doesn't have the heaviness you get from a steak dinner.
toomanybeersies 10y ago
It's a culinary difference in how meals are laid out in western cuisine. In the west, we tend to have a protein of some sort, which is the centerpiece of the dish, with supporting elements of carbs and veges. With Eastern food, they tend to have a carb, and then a curry or other mix of meat and veges to go with it.
ivarrian 10y ago
This is true. I'm an Indian , now living in Australia. I love meat! The only time I don't crave it is when I'm in India where the vegetarian food is incredibly tasty/satisfying doesn't consist of largely salads. I eat salads, not because I enjoy them but because I know its good for me.
danans 10y ago
Interestingly, a recent survey shows that despite having that highly refined vegetarian cuisine, Indians (especially South Indians) are nowhere near as vegetarian as is usually assumed: https://www.scoopwhoop.com/This-Survey-Found-Out-How-Many-Indians-Are-NonVegetarians-And-Which-State-Is-The-Least-Vegetarian/ https://www.scoopwhoop.com/This-Survey-Found-Out-How-Many-In...
puranjay 10y ago
My girlfriend is a vegetarian so I often end up eating vegetarian food when we go out. Agreed with your assertion. Here in India, vegetarian food is often as good, if not better than meat.

arjie 10y ago

To present the other side, I lived in India a long time and vegetarian cuisine there always left me unsatisfied. If, for some reason, I had to eat a vegetarian meal (say I'm going to a Brahmin wedding), I'd just eat meat before I left for it because the alternative was to be unhappy.

ergothus 10y ago

I'm a huge fan of Indian food. (Because it's tasty, AND because they are one of the few foreign countries that uses the same definition of "vegetarian" that I do). That said, I actually have a fairly limited range there too: if you don't like yogurt, dill, bell peppers, cucumbers, or okra, a lot gets cut out. That's on me an my tastes, not the Indian food, but it's still a reality I have to deal with.

delecti 10y ago
> the same definition of "vegetarian" that I do Can you elaborate?
- matt4077 10y ago
  Well, in Africa chicken isn't regarded as meat, to give one example from my own experience. In western countries, there's some ambiguity around eggs, fish, and possibly lard but only as far as vegetarians can't all agree on those either.
  - snuxoll 10y ago
    Even as a meat eater I don't eat fish unless I caught it myself. Commercial fishing has gotten out of control and I refuse to contribute to the practice, as well as the shocking frequency that fish are mislabeled.
    - ajmurmann 10y ago
      This is such a huge gripe for me. I love fish but hate the industry. In fact I wish we could have a 5 year moratorium on any fishing. Fishing is the best example for the tragedy of the commons.
      - iamdave 10y ago
        There was an episode of Archer recently that was a crossover with the old Sealab cartoon (2021, the "spoof" version to be specific) and Captain Murphy was holding the world hostage with "nukes" (he didn't have any nukes) in demand for a moratorium on fishing. It wasn't the first time I had heard demands for such a pause, but it was definitely a position I wasn't expecting to see echoed in Archer. In some other cartoon as a wink and a nod to the parents, sure. But definitely not Archer.
  - pyre 10y ago
    Also, gelatin is considered vegetarian by some, or at least there are some vegetarians that don't realize that gelatin is an animal product (just some sort of "mystery" ingredient, I guess).
    - Xixi 10y ago
      For those who are wondering if there are alternative to animal gelatin, Japanese have been using agar [1] (they call it kanten) for centuries to prepare sweets. It's similar to gelatin, but made from algae, so it is absolutely vegetarian. As far as I know all Japanese traditional sweets that require something gelatinous are made with it, so they are safe to it if you are vegetarian/vegan. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agar
- ergothus 10y ago
  Sure. Usually it boils down to whether fish/seafood is considered vegetarian, but sometimes it also includes broth or animal byproducts. For the purposes of definition, I use the below, which appears to be the general consensus definitions in America, though I'm sure some will dispute this. Vegetarian: (also called ovo-lacto vegetarian) No meat (including fish/seafood). Eggs, dairy, and honey are okay. Byproducts that involved killing animals are not. Those vegetarians that are so for health reasons often skip that last part, and many vegetarians only go "so deep" when looking, so they don't worry if bleached (with animal bone) flour was used, or if the cheese was made with animal-based rennet. Lastly, insects and some low-nervous system mussels occupy a questionable space that isn't often discussed at large, but like the "so deep" issue should likely be considered "not strictly vegetarian but some vegetarians have exceptions". Vegan: Vegetarian, plus no eggs, dairy, or honey. They tend to look deeper and more strictly than vegetarians, though the general belief that you shouldn't be killing things is shared between those vegetarians and vegans that are so for ethical reasons. (other vegan restrictions aren't food based) Pescatarian: Vegetarian, but fish and seafood are permitted. Some examples: In the American southeast (not a foreign country, but might as well be) pork is as much a "spice" as a food. Many vegetable offerings at restaurants are seasoned with pork. At one cafe in Atlanta I asked if a soup was vegetarian and they said yes...then after a moment said "but it does have chicken stock", because in their mind anything that wasn't "chunks of meat" was vegetarian. (also, since I have the pulpit, as a once lover of ham, what the south does to ham is a crime. It has two varieties: salty, and really salty. I forget which is "country ham" and which is "virginia ham", but both made it easier for me to drop pork from my diet.) In Chinese food, fish is generally considered vegetarian, and oyster sauce is particularly prevalent. If I request something "vegetarian", they'll avoid using pork-based seasonings, but will include oyster sauce unless I'm very explicit and make a pain of myself. My Japanese friends tell me there's no point in me trying to eat there. The only option that doesn't involve seafood is "monk training food", which is...not intended to be tasty. Thai food and Vietnamese food have, I think, some of the same issues. I know curry paste is often made with shrimp, and where an Indian restaurant will pay attention, Thai places often won't. (That said, I love Thai, so when I find a place where I trust the staff "gets it", they get a lot of business) I wasn't vegetarian when I was in Europe, so I don't know how easy it is to be vegetarian there, but I know a lot of places that had a strong Catholic influence consider fish to be "non-meat". In many of these places I could try to be explicit, but that's often painful because there are sometimes language issues, because I don't want to make a pain of myself, and because some places leave me not trusting that the result is actually vegetarian despite my explicitness. In contrast, Indian restaurants tend to: 1) Share the same definition, so we have no language issues 2) Take the vegetarian/non-vegetarian divide seriously (Many Indians are vegetarian or part-time vegetarian for religious reasons), so my requests are neither a pain nor is there often a worry that I'll get something animal-based anyway. A friend of mine from India once told me "if a mob would burn down your restaurant if you got caught mixing meat and vegetarian, you'd take it seriously too". I still don't if she was joking with me, and if so to what degree.
- stonemetal 10y ago
  In japan seafood isn't considered meat. If you do then it can be pretty hard. Also, as far as I understand, they don't use a lot of vegetable oil. So things that would be ok in the west, like bread, more than likely have lard in them.
- sdenton4 10y ago
  My definition, which tell people at restaurants, is 'nothing that had eyes except potatoes.' it's succinct, and everyone gets it. I'm fine with eggs, though, so YMMV.
  - eru 10y ago
    Leaves a few loopholes, but nothing anybody could exploit with anything they had at a typical restaurant. And easy to understand.

wil421 10y ago

Not a vegetarian but I do go out with many Indian colleagues who are vegetarian and have family members or friends who dont eat meat. I do agree with the assumption that western vegetarians tend to want meat replacements. The biggest difference for me was seeing how a lot of Indian cuisine is actually unhealthy. Most everything is fried in oil or has so much clarified butter its unhealthy. The Indian diet (at least the people in my office) seems more unhealthy vs the western vegetarian diet and several people in my office have had heart attacks.

amalag 10y ago
Traditional Indian food is perfectly healthy. Fresh vegetables, grains, etc. Even clarified butter used to be prepared differently.
- nostrebored 10y ago
  People still think that oil and butter are bad for you, despite the mountains of research that saturated fat is not unhealthy, and the new research regarding weight loss that the high fat Mediterranean diet is better than low fat diets. The only reasonable complaints re Indian food are high carbs and low amounts of high quality protein
mycodebreaks 10y ago
It is true for most of the restaurants serving different cuisines. Home-prepared Thai food is healthier than the food at Thai restaurants. Replace Thai with Chinese, Burmese, Vietnamese, Indian, and it would still hold true.
- cthalupa 10y ago
  Having eaten a lot of home-prepared South Indian food, I'm not sure I really agree. Home cooked food has the ability to be healthier than restaurant prepared, but I don't know if there's enough data to really claim one way or the other - homecooked is not healthier just by virtue of being homecooked.

walrus01 10y ago

As much as I enjoy Indian vegetarian food, as a person that does eat meat, there are also a bewildering variety of dishes possible with the same spices and ingredients with meat added. One example is what you can find in Pakistani cuisine where the vast majority of the population is Muslim and does eat meat. There is of course a great deal of culinary overlap in the Punjab region, food is much older than the 1947 partition. If you ever visit Lahore I highly recommend trying the local restaurants.

Manishearth 10y ago
Oh, nonvegetarian food from the subcontinent can be amazing. Even from Hindu-majority areas -- Indian (or even Hindu) vegetarians are the minority (30%), just a generally affluent and vocal minority. Aside from beef, of course.
- vshan 10y ago
  You need to ask your Keralite friends to prepare some beef.
  - Manishearth 10y ago
    Oh, not saying Indian beef cuisine sucks, saying beef-eating is not in the majority :)
- hx87 10y ago
  Not to mention pork as well--it seems like in a lot of places with arid climates and Islamic influence, people don't eat pork even if there is no religious prohibition per se. That's why I like Greek, Goan and northwestern Chinese food--it has all the tastiness of middle eastern & central/south Asian food, but with my favorite meat.

rjbwork 10y ago

I love indian food, and the vegetarian options are superb. That said, I still adore tandoori chicken. >.>

Manishearth 10y ago

This. I'm Indian origin. At home, we usually eat vegetarian food (not a religious thing, it just is). I don't miss non vegetarian food at all. But if I go out to eat I usually have non vegetarian food.

fallinghawks 10y ago

If I had to give up meat, south Indian would be a lifesaver. It's so flavorful, you come out feeling filled and sated, and yet your stomach doesn't have the heaviness you get from a steak dinner.

toomanybeersies 10y ago

It's a culinary difference in how meals are laid out in western cuisine. In the west, we tend to have a protein of some sort, which is the centerpiece of the dish, with supporting elements of carbs and veges. With Eastern food, they tend to have a carb, and then a curry or other mix of meat and veges to go with it.

ivarrian 10y ago

This is true. I'm an Indian , now living in Australia. I love meat! The only time I don't crave it is when I'm in India where the vegetarian food is incredibly tasty/satisfying doesn't consist of largely salads. I eat salads, not because I enjoy them but because I know its good for me.

danans 10y ago

Interestingly, a recent survey shows that despite having that highly refined vegetarian cuisine, Indians (especially South Indians) are nowhere near as vegetarian as is usually assumed: https://www.scoopwhoop.com/This-Survey-Found-Out-How-Many-Indians-Are-NonVegetarians-And-Which-State-Is-The-Least-Vegetarian/ https://www.scoopwhoop.com/This-Survey-Found-Out-How-Many-In...

puranjay 10y ago

My girlfriend is a vegetarian so I often end up eating vegetarian food when we go out. Agreed with your assertion. Here in India, vegetarian food is often as good, if not better than meat.