9 ms·

I've had a similar thing happened to me a few years back when I sold a no longer needed but still unopened Windows Vista DVD that I purchased directly from MS S

by soyiuz 10y ago

I've had a similar thing happened to me a few years back when I sold a no longer needed but still unopened Windows Vista DVD that I purchased directly from MS Store (on Microsoft campus). The buyer returned the package, but the returned merchandize was clearly counterfeit. The box was of a light material, missing holograms, faded colors etc. The buyer's history was full of similar purchases. I've been careful about documenting shipments since. Overall, I am reluctant to sell on Amazon these days because of the A-Z guarantee, which is only sustainable for large sellers. Fraud is a sticky problem at scale. A few bad actors poison the well for everyone. As a buyer I appreciate Amazon's policies, but as an occasional seller I find them completely draconian. There is very little you can do to contest a decision against you.

waterphone 10y ago
They're draconian in some other areas, too, which affect regular customers. I was blacklisted from Amazon Payments, which I've only ever used to fund a few Kickstarter Projects. They will not tell me why, will not consider an appeal, and will not respond to further inquiries anymore. From reading online, this is due to their use of Experian for identity verification. But if you don't have any credit history, as I do not, you do not exist within Experian's system and are automatically considered by Amazon to be a fraud threat and so are effectively cut out of the system and blacklisted without recourse, even if you're a longstanding good customer with other Amazon products.
- coderdude 10y ago
  I hate to say this but you basically have to trust these types of authorities when it comes to this type of "trust." You wouldn't believe how many people are out to scam. It's endemic in anything that involves money. I'd say "few bad eggs" but it's mostly shit eggs amongst a few good eggs.
  - eric_h 10y ago
    I think it's really more that the bad "hens" lay many bad eggs, and the good ones only lay one good egg at a time.
    - coderdude 10y ago
      I think I kind of get this. Sounds like Steam accounts. Cheaters galore with family accounts? Rust (game) nailed this by recently deciding to nuke the hen and its eggs.
      - MawNicker 10y ago
        How did they do that? Hopefully not something like Warden, Blizzard's cheat-detecting rootkit.
        coderdude 10y ago
        Yeah I don't know or care, to be honest. If it keeps those assholes from walling me then I'm okay with it.
  - waterphone 10y ago
    So for those of us who simply don't meet their definition for an identifiable individual (e.g. someone who borrows money and allows their borrowing history to be monitored by commercial and government entities), what, we're just shit out of luck? Credit history being a requirement for identity verification is becoming more and more pervasive, and I am increasingly locked out of participating in both private and government services because of this shit. Amazon's was especially bad because it allegedly had an appeal process that allowed submitting other forms of identity documents to bypass Experian's failure, but it never functioned correctly and attempting to verify my identity would fail because I had not yet verified my identity, and then the fact that I wouldn't verify my identity manually sent up a bigger red flag that permanently blacklisted me from the service with zero recourse now, even as I explained that I was unable to because their system wouldn't let me. Their customer support people would just say "I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do. You are not allowed to participate in this service anymore." I lost a lot of respect for Amazon at that point.
    - jcrawfordor 10y ago
      If you've opted not to use the services of the finance industry, then you may not be able to use the services of the finance industry.
    - seanp2k2 10y ago
      I leaned a long time ago that hating the game and trying to fight it doesn't do much to change the game; the choice personally was more "play and figure out how to win" or "lose and be bitter about it". I now have great credit and don't pay any interest on things but receive a cut of the reward from their ridiculous merchant CC processing fees.
    - coderdude 10y ago
      Yes, you're shit out of luck. You can post paragraphs onto the Internet until you're blue in the face but this is their reality, not mine. Pro life tip: just get a credit card or two and nurture your credit score. Don't fuck over your utilities and make sure your payments are on time. Voila. You're a real boy. Not my rules or something I endorse but hey someone here had to say it.
- plttn 10y ago
  I don't currently have any credit history and have had no issues with Kickstarter/Amazon Payments, so that might not be the specific cause as to why.
ndesaulniers 10y ago
The same could be said for eBay. Buyer of my MBP opened a claim against me cause I didn't include the OS install disks (which Apple stopped shipping years earlier). Had to bend over backwards to prevent this con artist from keeping the laptop and money. Now I don't sell shit on eBay.
- thenomad 10y ago
  I recently decided not to sell several expensive bits of electronics on eBay because multiple people warned me about this sort of fraud. Real pity because it's hard to know where to sell that sort of thing these days.
  - wvenable 10y ago
    Craigslist
    - lfowles 10y ago
      Even worse, "Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11847858 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11847858
      - lsaferite 10y ago
        In person, cash transaction, crowded place? Pfft, then you get arrested because the cops think you're selling stolen goods.
        jaynos 10y ago
        Lots of police stations now have "Safe Exchange" places either in the station or in the parking lot. Cameras in place and well lit.
      - dietrichepp 10y ago
        That's a nasty corner case of PA state law, combined with a defendant who failed to respond to claims.
jackarbitrage 10y ago
>This works because Amazon heavily favors customers in their A-Z Guarantee claim process, and sellers don’t tend to record video evidence when shipping expensive merchandise (which they should) FWIW my friend and I made an app called "Emberall" it makes it easy to record/label video and save it to the cloud. It's mostly used my new moms recording their kids, but would be equally useful to anyone that wanted to regularly record and archive video evidence like the article suggested.
- ericabiz 10y ago
  As a buyer, I could still win a claim against you for bad shipping, though. We run two repair shops where we buy a LOT of parts on eBay, and the way some people ship things is atrocious. We've received laptop keyboards with keys hanging off, LCD screens that are broken--even video evidence wouldn't be sufficient for you, as the seller, to win the case if poor shipping is involved. It's bad for sellers, too. Imagine shipping a $400 LCD (this is approximately how much the MacBook Pro retina screens cost) and the buyer receives it scratched or broken. It happens alarmingly often. As the seller, the only thing you can do is replace or refund. That's why you basically have to make a ton of profit off of these--or really learn how to package them (many sellers won't bother.)
nathangrant 10y ago
Selling on Amazon at a small scale has bitten me lately as well. I had the same video card returned by three different buyers for buyer-only reasons (Bought by Mistake, Found Better Price) and there is no recourse for me and I'm out the $20 shipping each time unless I want to jeopardize my seller account
incongruity 10y ago
This is an opportunity for Amazon, IMHO. This sort of thing is what insurance is for - it's all about risk pooling so you can survive the big loss even if you're a small-scale seller. Amazon could easily add an insurance policy option for sellers with a few minimal requirements for documenting the sale/shipping - Amazon collects a small fee, encourages better habits among small sellers and it all works.
- iamdave 10y ago
  I've never sold on Amazon, so pardon the ignorance: does Amazon have some sort of 'escrow' service to hedge this risk for parties making transactions?
  - maldeh 10y ago
    Not quite escrow, but there's 'Fulfillment By Amazon', which takes care of distribution and shipping for you (albeit for additional fulfillment fees), and can be safer for both the buyer and seller since goods pass through inventory checks at a warehouse. (Disclaimer: work with Fulfillment By Amazon)
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      Can you post or point to more info on how this service works? To ask a specific question, can FbyA could handle items for which it's important for the seller to know which serial number has gone to which buyer?
DrScump 10y ago
The buyer's history was full of similar purchases. The fraud problems exploded after eBay made it impossible to leave anything but positive feedback for buyers. You can't even leave neutral feedback for a buyer.

by soyiuz 10y ago

waterphone 10y ago

They're draconian in some other areas, too, which affect regular customers. I was blacklisted from Amazon Payments, which I've only ever used to fund a few Kickstarter Projects. They will not tell me why, will not consider an appeal, and will not respond to further inquiries anymore. From reading online, this is due to their use of Experian for identity verification. But if you don't have any credit history, as I do not, you do not exist within Experian's system and are automatically considered by Amazon to be a fraud threat and so are effectively cut out of the system and blacklisted without recourse, even if you're a longstanding good customer with other Amazon products.

coderdude 10y ago
I hate to say this but you basically have to trust these types of authorities when it comes to this type of "trust." You wouldn't believe how many people are out to scam. It's endemic in anything that involves money. I'd say "few bad eggs" but it's mostly shit eggs amongst a few good eggs.
- eric_h 10y ago
  I think it's really more that the bad "hens" lay many bad eggs, and the good ones only lay one good egg at a time.
  - coderdude 10y ago
    I think I kind of get this. Sounds like Steam accounts. Cheaters galore with family accounts? Rust (game) nailed this by recently deciding to nuke the hen and its eggs.
    - MawNicker 10y ago
      How did they do that? Hopefully not something like Warden, Blizzard's cheat-detecting rootkit.
      - coderdude 10y ago
        Yeah I don't know or care, to be honest. If it keeps those assholes from walling me then I'm okay with it.
- waterphone 10y ago
  So for those of us who simply don't meet their definition for an identifiable individual (e.g. someone who borrows money and allows their borrowing history to be monitored by commercial and government entities), what, we're just shit out of luck? Credit history being a requirement for identity verification is becoming more and more pervasive, and I am increasingly locked out of participating in both private and government services because of this shit. Amazon's was especially bad because it allegedly had an appeal process that allowed submitting other forms of identity documents to bypass Experian's failure, but it never functioned correctly and attempting to verify my identity would fail because I had not yet verified my identity, and then the fact that I wouldn't verify my identity manually sent up a bigger red flag that permanently blacklisted me from the service with zero recourse now, even as I explained that I was unable to because their system wouldn't let me. Their customer support people would just say "I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do. You are not allowed to participate in this service anymore." I lost a lot of respect for Amazon at that point.
  - jcrawfordor 10y ago
    If you've opted not to use the services of the finance industry, then you may not be able to use the services of the finance industry.
  - seanp2k2 10y ago
    I leaned a long time ago that hating the game and trying to fight it doesn't do much to change the game; the choice personally was more "play and figure out how to win" or "lose and be bitter about it". I now have great credit and don't pay any interest on things but receive a cut of the reward from their ridiculous merchant CC processing fees.
  - coderdude 10y ago
    Yes, you're shit out of luck. You can post paragraphs onto the Internet until you're blue in the face but this is their reality, not mine. Pro life tip: just get a credit card or two and nurture your credit score. Don't fuck over your utilities and make sure your payments are on time. Voila. You're a real boy. Not my rules or something I endorse but hey someone here had to say it.
plttn 10y ago
I don't currently have any credit history and have had no issues with Kickstarter/Amazon Payments, so that might not be the specific cause as to why.

ndesaulniers 10y ago

The same could be said for eBay. Buyer of my MBP opened a claim against me cause I didn't include the OS install disks (which Apple stopped shipping years earlier). Had to bend over backwards to prevent this con artist from keeping the laptop and money. Now I don't sell shit on eBay.

thenomad 10y ago
I recently decided not to sell several expensive bits of electronics on eBay because multiple people warned me about this sort of fraud. Real pity because it's hard to know where to sell that sort of thing these days.
- wvenable 10y ago
  Craigslist
  - lfowles 10y ago
    Even worse, "Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11847858 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11847858
    - lsaferite 10y ago
      In person, cash transaction, crowded place? Pfft, then you get arrested because the cops think you're selling stolen goods.
      - jaynos 10y ago
        Lots of police stations now have "Safe Exchange" places either in the station or in the parking lot. Cameras in place and well lit.
    - dietrichepp 10y ago
      That's a nasty corner case of PA state law, combined with a defendant who failed to respond to claims.

jackarbitrage 10y ago

>This works because Amazon heavily favors customers in their A-Z Guarantee claim process, and sellers don’t tend to record video evidence when shipping expensive merchandise (which they should) FWIW my friend and I made an app called "Emberall" it makes it easy to record/label video and save it to the cloud. It's mostly used my new moms recording their kids, but would be equally useful to anyone that wanted to regularly record and archive video evidence like the article suggested.

ericabiz 10y ago
As a buyer, I could still win a claim against you for bad shipping, though. We run two repair shops where we buy a LOT of parts on eBay, and the way some people ship things is atrocious. We've received laptop keyboards with keys hanging off, LCD screens that are broken--even video evidence wouldn't be sufficient for you, as the seller, to win the case if poor shipping is involved. It's bad for sellers, too. Imagine shipping a $400 LCD (this is approximately how much the MacBook Pro retina screens cost) and the buyer receives it scratched or broken. It happens alarmingly often. As the seller, the only thing you can do is replace or refund. That's why you basically have to make a ton of profit off of these--or really learn how to package them (many sellers won't bother.)

nathangrant 10y ago

Selling on Amazon at a small scale has bitten me lately as well. I had the same video card returned by three different buyers for buyer-only reasons (Bought by Mistake, Found Better Price) and there is no recourse for me and I'm out the $20 shipping each time unless I want to jeopardize my seller account

incongruity 10y ago

This is an opportunity for Amazon, IMHO. This sort of thing is what insurance is for - it's all about risk pooling so you can survive the big loss even if you're a small-scale seller. Amazon could easily add an insurance policy option for sellers with a few minimal requirements for documenting the sale/shipping - Amazon collects a small fee, encourages better habits among small sellers and it all works.

iamdave 10y ago
I've never sold on Amazon, so pardon the ignorance: does Amazon have some sort of 'escrow' service to hedge this risk for parties making transactions?
- maldeh 10y ago
  Not quite escrow, but there's 'Fulfillment By Amazon', which takes care of distribution and shipping for you (albeit for additional fulfillment fees), and can be safer for both the buyer and seller since goods pass through inventory checks at a warehouse. (Disclaimer: work with Fulfillment By Amazon)
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    Can you post or point to more info on how this service works? To ask a specific question, can FbyA could handle items for which it's important for the seller to know which serial number has gone to which buyer?

DrScump 10y ago

The buyer's history was full of similar purchases. The fraud problems exploded after eBay made it impossible to leave anything but positive feedback for buyers. You can't even leave neutral feedback for a buyer.