10 ms·

A Meth Addict Gets Sober in Orange County Community Court

104 points by curtis 10y ago

Daneel_ 10y ago
Interesting insight into what addiction is really like. That mentality of 'I could relapse tomorrow' even after four years is very telling. Good on the guy for four years clean. He obviously wants it, and he's got the willpower to keep it together now that he's hit rock bottom. Glad his life is back on track.
- girvo 10y ago
  I'm four years clean from heroin after six years of addiction (from 16 years old) this August, and he's completely right. I also volunteer, because I feel that giving back and helping those to follow a better path keeps me grounded and sober. Addiction is probably the most selfish thing in the world, at least in terms of how you begin to think and act, so it makes some karmic sense that selfless acts can help you beat it, in my mind at least. Great article!
  - mathattack 10y ago
    Given your experience, I am curious about your opinions on legalization of drugs. (Applying a Netherlands or Portugal model to the US)
    - rayiner 10y ago
      Fun fact: Neither Portugal nor the Netherlands "legalized drugs." Portugal decriminalized personal use. The Netherlands never decriminalized any drugs, not even marijuana. Rather, it adopted an official policy of non-prosecution under certain conditions. In fact, marijuana may be more "legalized" in many U.S. states than it is in the Netherlands. E.g. the legal possession limits are higher in states like Colorado, and growing is less restricted. And of course, in both countries, anything beyond small-scale growing and sale of marijuana (much less the production and sale of what they call "hard drugs") remains illegal and subject to active prosecution.
      - rhizome 10y ago
        I've seen you make this comment before, why the vigilance?
        function_seven 10y ago
        I'm going to guess it's due to repeated inaccurate characterizations of those countries' drug laws (or purported lack thereof). When there's a thing that "everybody knows", but that thing is wrong, it's hard not to continue to correct it every time you see it misreported. Again, this is my guess, I'm not rayiner.
        rayiner 10y ago
        https://xkcd.com/386/ https://xkcd.com/386/
        rhizome 10y ago
        Touche! :)
      - mathattack 10y ago
        Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought we differ in severity. Instead of 3 strikes laws and extended jail terms, doesn't Portugal for treatment? (I'm happy to admit I may be wrong here)
        rayiner 10y ago
        We do. But Portugal also has far less severe sentences for murder: maximum 25 years.[1] But it would be inaccurate to say that Portugal has "legalized" murder. Portugal has decriminalized possession, and the Netherlands has a policy of non-prosecution for possession. But even in the U.S. mere possession is rarely punished with prison time (much less extended sentences and 3-strikes penalties): http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/america-tonight-blog/2014/2/21/netherlands-cannabislessonscolorado.html http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/ame.... And when it comes to things other than possession, the Netherlands does prosecute. The Netherlands conducts about 5,000 marijuana raids every year: http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/america-tonight-blog/2014/2/21/netherlands-cannabislessonscolorado.html http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/ame.... I'm not being merely pedantic. In my opinion, pointing out that Portugal and the Netherlands "legalized drugs" isn't just technically inaccurate, it's a red herring. The real problem is our law enforcement's over-the-top militarism and brutal penalties across-the-board. Law enforcement in the Netherlands doesn't choke people to death for selling untaxed cigarettes--that doesn't mean the problem in the U.S. is that selling untaxed cigarettes is illegal. The real story isn't that Portugal has decriminalized drug possession and why can't we be like that.[1] It's that Portugal rarely even enforces prison sentences under 5 years! Why can't we be like that? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(Portuguese_law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(Portuguese_law)
- thr303808 10y ago
  He could also take drugs tomorrow and stop the next day. Us addicts seemingly think of relapsing as something that happens to you, like if you're walking down the street and fall into a manhole. But you're not powerless, it's just a self-fulfilling prophecy. It'll take at least weeks of continued use to get addicted again (that's for opioids, amphetamines are not addictive in that way.) Then again, it's never enough to just do it once as you want to be on the drug forever. This is why it's easy to continue using again, but it's also possible to stop. EDIT To clarify: I'm not condoning relapsing, I only want people to know that all hope is not lost if you made the decision to use again. I'm also not saying that it will be easy to stop again, just that it's going to be easier than you think.
  - daveguy 10y ago
    Downvoted. Addiction is powerful and the false belief that you can "just dabble" is what causes a lot of relapse. It is a common excuse/justification for people during a relpse. If you are speaking this way from a personal perspective you should take the resumption of addictive behavior seriously and consider getting help. Flippant attitude toward relapse is not a good attitude for someone who wants to stay clean.
    - thr303808 10y ago
      Good friends of mine died from walking into a relapse, I don't take it lightly at all. Relapses are so common it's dangerous to tell people all is lost if they use just one more time. Personally I've been clean for years, but what saved me was getting back into work so that I had something to occupy my time. It's easier to drop the tin foil when you have work and responsibilities in the morning.
  - rosser 10y ago
    > It'll take at least weeks of continued use to get addicted again... Maybe that's your experience, and maybe it's some other people's too, but to offer this as a blanket truth is not merely wrong, but actively dangerous.
  - taneq 10y ago
- eggy 10y ago
  Meth and heroin are what the average person considers 'drugs' when speaking about addiction, but alcohol, which is romanticized, and at times suggested as part of a healthy diet, is probably the most subtly destructive of all given how pervasive it is in our modern society. Imagine if meth and heroin, instead of being portrayed as taboo, and dark, were portrayed the same way drinking is in sophomoric college comedies as a cool, silly thing to do, and 'everybody does it'. You don't necessarily see these contrasts until you have been sober many years, and open your eyes and look around you.
  - jfoutz 10y ago
    Alcohol is devastating to the body, over many years. A year of meth, oh my. Drugs do damage. Sugar has consequences, but the consequences of sugar aren't the same as cigarettes, and cigarettes aren't the same as heroin. You're not wrong. just about everything will kill you in excess. Alcohol will kill you faster than steak. Some things are much much easier to consume to excess. And that difficulty varies by person.
    - DugFin 10y ago
      I've seen people drink themselves over the course of a year into a state of health similar to what you allude to with "a year of meth, oh my". I've also known meth users who were highly functional and used it for years with no significant health issues. All in all, I'd say they're about equal.
      - jfoutz 10y ago
        I don't doubt your personal experience. Statistically, your friends are outliers.
        thr303808 10y ago
        Do you have a source for these statistics? I know hundreds of people who have taken meth/speed during the weekend for years and are working, functioning people.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Animats 10y ago
"In jail, there’s everything you need: heroin, alcohol, pills, meth, weed." This is because the California Correctional Officers Association strongly opposes searches of guards.[1] [1] http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/04/local/la-me-prison-guards-20110204 http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/04/local/la-me-prison-g...
- kilroy123 10y ago
  Probably wouldn't make a difference. The guard searching the other one, would probably be in on it.
  - bluedino 10y ago
    They search the other contractors (meals, etc) who still manage to smuggle things in.
    - hugh4 10y ago
      Indeed they do, because the guards' union want to maintain their monopoly on the contraband smuggling business.
- engx 10y ago
  I agree with them. If LA county sheriff's deputies didn't smuggle cellphones in, how else would an undercover FBI agent get a phone to the FBI's witness that was being hidden in the jail by Sheriff Lee Baca? http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-sheriff-jail-scandal-sentencing-20160613-snap-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-sheriff-jail-sca...
- Herodotus38 10y ago
  Sort of a minor point but I wonder though if the quote meant prison rather than jail. Anecdotally I've heard that it is hard to get drugs in jail, but very easy in prison. This makes sense because people in jail are there for short stints and thus don't have time to make the connections required for a clandestine black market. A lot of people use the terms jail and prison interchangably, though they are technically different in the USA.
CodeWriter23 10y ago
To me it sounds pretty much like the court sent him to Narcotics Anonymous and he got clean there. The sober living house had him pee in a cup to verify he was staying clean and that's about it.
- pcl 10y ago
  The article has a link to another article that's more focused on the notion of a "drug court" [1] itself. I hadn't heard of the term either, but from the sound of it, the drug court runs / oversees a highly-structured program that's focused on addicts and that takes place outside of a prison. So it sounds like it's more than just "go to a sober living house, and let them enforce rules" and more of a probation-like situation. [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/helping-not-punishing-addicts/487706/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/helping-...
kilroy123 10y ago
My sister has a very bad drug problem. At this point we want her to go to jail, as it might help her want to get better. Sadly, as this guy said, it is very easy to get high in jail.
- corndoge 10y ago
  Have you been to jail? I wouldn't be so quick to dictate what's best for someone else. It's a fucked up place.
  - reddytowns 10y ago
    Maybe he thinks his best considering not only his sister, but also the people his sister is affecting.
    - nostrebored 10y ago
      And the intersection of these two things. Coming to terms with things you've done to other people is an extremely difficult thing that adds to an addict's sunk cost.
- thr303808 10y ago
  Jail/prison is the absolute worst place you can send a drug addict to. If anything it usually makes things much, much worse. Sadly I don't have any solutions to your problems, only the advice to keep fighting for her and to treat her with compassion. If she's addicted to opioids you could consider buprenorphine.
  - kilroy123 10y ago
    No offense, but you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. We'd rather see her go to jail, than be dead. Which is a likely path for her.
    - thr303808 10y ago
hackney 10y ago
In all honesty, the fact that he had been an upright taxpaying citizen to begin with... good job, house, car, friends etc., was an excellent incentive to break the habit. My stepbrother is in his late 30's, has 5 illegitimate kids, no job, no car, and has never held a driver's license. Oh and he's a heroin addict and all his friends are meth heads. Why doesn't he quit? He's lived in the same house virtually his entire life, in and out of jail and prison, and his dad essentially allows him to live there as a daily fuckup. DeLancey Street is an excellent court appointed 2yr alternative to the courts themselves. You can also just walk or drive in right off the street if you have the balls. Problem is you have to willingly enter it (the hard part), have no outstanding tickets/court appointments, and show up sober. Even so, I've seen guys with 4 years under their belt, walk out the door and OD within a week. It really boils down to the individul themselves and the choices they make. Guys with 30+ years of addiction do not normally survive it. It just eats them alive, if not slowly.

104 points by curtis 10y ago

Interesting insight into what addiction is really like. That mentality of 'I could relapse tomorrow' even after four years is very telling. Good on the guy for four years clean. He obviously wants it, and he's got the willpower to keep it together now that he's hit rock bottom. Glad his life is back on track.

girvo 10y ago
I'm four years clean from heroin after six years of addiction (from 16 years old) this August, and he's completely right. I also volunteer, because I feel that giving back and helping those to follow a better path keeps me grounded and sober. Addiction is probably the most selfish thing in the world, at least in terms of how you begin to think and act, so it makes some karmic sense that selfless acts can help you beat it, in my mind at least. Great article!
- mathattack 10y ago
  Given your experience, I am curious about your opinions on legalization of drugs. (Applying a Netherlands or Portugal model to the US)
  - rayiner 10y ago
    Fun fact: Neither Portugal nor the Netherlands "legalized drugs." Portugal decriminalized personal use. The Netherlands never decriminalized any drugs, not even marijuana. Rather, it adopted an official policy of non-prosecution under certain conditions. In fact, marijuana may be more "legalized" in many U.S. states than it is in the Netherlands. E.g. the legal possession limits are higher in states like Colorado, and growing is less restricted. And of course, in both countries, anything beyond small-scale growing and sale of marijuana (much less the production and sale of what they call "hard drugs") remains illegal and subject to active prosecution.
    - rhizome 10y ago
      I've seen you make this comment before, why the vigilance?
      - function_seven 10y ago
        I'm going to guess it's due to repeated inaccurate characterizations of those countries' drug laws (or purported lack thereof). When there's a thing that "everybody knows", but that thing is wrong, it's hard not to continue to correct it every time you see it misreported. Again, this is my guess, I'm not rayiner.
      - rayiner 10y ago
        https://xkcd.com/386/ https://xkcd.com/386/
        rhizome 10y ago
        Touche! :)
    - mathattack 10y ago
      Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought we differ in severity. Instead of 3 strikes laws and extended jail terms, doesn't Portugal for treatment? (I'm happy to admit I may be wrong here)
      - rayiner 10y ago
        We do. But Portugal also has far less severe sentences for murder: maximum 25 years.[1] But it would be inaccurate to say that Portugal has "legalized" murder. Portugal has decriminalized possession, and the Netherlands has a policy of non-prosecution for possession. But even in the U.S. mere possession is rarely punished with prison time (much less extended sentences and 3-strikes penalties): http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/america-tonight-blog/2014/2/21/netherlands-cannabislessonscolorado.html http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/ame.... And when it comes to things other than possession, the Netherlands does prosecute. The Netherlands conducts about 5,000 marijuana raids every year: http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/america-tonight-blog/2014/2/21/netherlands-cannabislessonscolorado.html http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/ame.... I'm not being merely pedantic. In my opinion, pointing out that Portugal and the Netherlands "legalized drugs" isn't just technically inaccurate, it's a red herring. The real problem is our law enforcement's over-the-top militarism and brutal penalties across-the-board. Law enforcement in the Netherlands doesn't choke people to death for selling untaxed cigarettes--that doesn't mean the problem in the U.S. is that selling untaxed cigarettes is illegal. The real story isn't that Portugal has decriminalized drug possession and why can't we be like that.[1] It's that Portugal rarely even enforces prison sentences under 5 years! Why can't we be like that? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(Portuguese_law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(Portuguese_law)
thr303808 10y ago
He could also take drugs tomorrow and stop the next day. Us addicts seemingly think of relapsing as something that happens to you, like if you're walking down the street and fall into a manhole. But you're not powerless, it's just a self-fulfilling prophecy. It'll take at least weeks of continued use to get addicted again (that's for opioids, amphetamines are not addictive in that way.) Then again, it's never enough to just do it once as you want to be on the drug forever. This is why it's easy to continue using again, but it's also possible to stop. EDIT To clarify: I'm not condoning relapsing, I only want people to know that all hope is not lost if you made the decision to use again. I'm also not saying that it will be easy to stop again, just that it's going to be easier than you think.
- daveguy 10y ago
  Downvoted. Addiction is powerful and the false belief that you can "just dabble" is what causes a lot of relapse. It is a common excuse/justification for people during a relpse. If you are speaking this way from a personal perspective you should take the resumption of addictive behavior seriously and consider getting help. Flippant attitude toward relapse is not a good attitude for someone who wants to stay clean.
  - thr303808 10y ago
    Good friends of mine died from walking into a relapse, I don't take it lightly at all. Relapses are so common it's dangerous to tell people all is lost if they use just one more time. Personally I've been clean for years, but what saved me was getting back into work so that I had something to occupy my time. It's easier to drop the tin foil when you have work and responsibilities in the morning.
- rosser 10y ago
  > It'll take at least weeks of continued use to get addicted again... Maybe that's your experience, and maybe it's some other people's too, but to offer this as a blanket truth is not merely wrong, but actively dangerous.
- taneq 10y ago
eggy 10y ago
Meth and heroin are what the average person considers 'drugs' when speaking about addiction, but alcohol, which is romanticized, and at times suggested as part of a healthy diet, is probably the most subtly destructive of all given how pervasive it is in our modern society. Imagine if meth and heroin, instead of being portrayed as taboo, and dark, were portrayed the same way drinking is in sophomoric college comedies as a cool, silly thing to do, and 'everybody does it'. You don't necessarily see these contrasts until you have been sober many years, and open your eyes and look around you.
- jfoutz 10y ago
  Alcohol is devastating to the body, over many years. A year of meth, oh my. Drugs do damage. Sugar has consequences, but the consequences of sugar aren't the same as cigarettes, and cigarettes aren't the same as heroin. You're not wrong. just about everything will kill you in excess. Alcohol will kill you faster than steak. Some things are much much easier to consume to excess. And that difficulty varies by person.
  - DugFin 10y ago
    I've seen people drink themselves over the course of a year into a state of health similar to what you allude to with "a year of meth, oh my". I've also known meth users who were highly functional and used it for years with no significant health issues. All in all, I'd say they're about equal.
    - jfoutz 10y ago
      I don't doubt your personal experience. Statistically, your friends are outliers.
      - thr303808 10y ago
        Do you have a source for these statistics? I know hundreds of people who have taken meth/speed during the weekend for years and are working, functioning people.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

Animats 10y ago

"In jail, there’s everything you need: heroin, alcohol, pills, meth, weed." This is because the California Correctional Officers Association strongly opposes searches of guards.[1] [1] http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/04/local/la-me-prison-guards-20110204 http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/04/local/la-me-prison-g...

kilroy123 10y ago
Probably wouldn't make a difference. The guard searching the other one, would probably be in on it.
- bluedino 10y ago
  They search the other contractors (meals, etc) who still manage to smuggle things in.
  - hugh4 10y ago
    Indeed they do, because the guards' union want to maintain their monopoly on the contraband smuggling business.
engx 10y ago
I agree with them. If LA county sheriff's deputies didn't smuggle cellphones in, how else would an undercover FBI agent get a phone to the FBI's witness that was being hidden in the jail by Sheriff Lee Baca? http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-sheriff-jail-scandal-sentencing-20160613-snap-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-sheriff-jail-sca...
Herodotus38 10y ago
Sort of a minor point but I wonder though if the quote meant prison rather than jail. Anecdotally I've heard that it is hard to get drugs in jail, but very easy in prison. This makes sense because people in jail are there for short stints and thus don't have time to make the connections required for a clandestine black market. A lot of people use the terms jail and prison interchangably, though they are technically different in the USA.

CodeWriter23 10y ago

To me it sounds pretty much like the court sent him to Narcotics Anonymous and he got clean there. The sober living house had him pee in a cup to verify he was staying clean and that's about it.

pcl 10y ago
The article has a link to another article that's more focused on the notion of a "drug court" [1] itself. I hadn't heard of the term either, but from the sound of it, the drug court runs / oversees a highly-structured program that's focused on addicts and that takes place outside of a prison. So it sounds like it's more than just "go to a sober living house, and let them enforce rules" and more of a probation-like situation. [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/helping-not-punishing-addicts/487706/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/helping-...

kilroy123 10y ago

My sister has a very bad drug problem. At this point we want her to go to jail, as it might help her want to get better. Sadly, as this guy said, it is very easy to get high in jail.

corndoge 10y ago
Have you been to jail? I wouldn't be so quick to dictate what's best for someone else. It's a fucked up place.
- reddytowns 10y ago
  Maybe he thinks his best considering not only his sister, but also the people his sister is affecting.
  - nostrebored 10y ago
    And the intersection of these two things. Coming to terms with things you've done to other people is an extremely difficult thing that adds to an addict's sunk cost.
thr303808 10y ago
Jail/prison is the absolute worst place you can send a drug addict to. If anything it usually makes things much, much worse. Sadly I don't have any solutions to your problems, only the advice to keep fighting for her and to treat her with compassion. If she's addicted to opioids you could consider buprenorphine.
- kilroy123 10y ago
  No offense, but you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. We'd rather see her go to jail, than be dead. Which is a likely path for her.
  - thr303808 10y ago

hackney 10y ago

In all honesty, the fact that he had been an upright taxpaying citizen to begin with... good job, house, car, friends etc., was an excellent incentive to break the habit. My stepbrother is in his late 30's, has 5 illegitimate kids, no job, no car, and has never held a driver's license. Oh and he's a heroin addict and all his friends are meth heads. Why doesn't he quit? He's lived in the same house virtually his entire life, in and out of jail and prison, and his dad essentially allows him to live there as a daily fuckup. DeLancey Street is an excellent court appointed 2yr alternative to the courts themselves. You can also just walk or drive in right off the street if you have the balls. Problem is you have to willingly enter it (the hard part), have no outstanding tickets/court appointments, and show up sober. Even so, I've seen guys with 4 years under their belt, walk out the door and OD within a week. It really boils down to the individul themselves and the choices they make. Guys with 30+ years of addiction do not normally survive it. It just eats them alive, if not slowly.