5 ms·

It's the ultimate buyer's market. The masses are forced to sell their labor under penalty of death. In that case, how come millions of non-workers aren't dead?

It's the ultimate buyer's market. The masses are forced to sell their labor under penalty of death. In that case, how come millions of non-workers aren't dead? [edit: to clarify, I mean in the US and similar western countries.]

sitkack 10y ago
They are http://www.who.int/gho/child_health/mortality/mortality_under_five_text/en/ http://www.who.int/gho/child_health/mortality/mortality_unde...
facetube 10y ago
I can show you some gravestones if you'd like. The US health system is essentially inaccessible to those with chronic but treatable conditions who aren't continually holding down relatively good jobs. I can go and get my major depression treated at $5 per minute because I have an employer that pays $20k per year for health insurance. I know families of five whose household income is less than my health insurance premium. I live in a first-world country where people buy antidepressants that they need from their friends and off the street, and have to beg/barter to refill the prescription that keeps their body from destroying their GI tract. Suicide is an ever-increasing problem. I step over the homeless on the way to work and reflexively look for signs of respiration. The dead are everywhere.
- willholloway 10y ago
  Obama (almost) fixed this. The Affordable Care Act extended Medicaid coverage from the absolute indigent, to those making up to 133% of the poverty line in their state, something around $16,000 per year. The group that is in a bad spot are those right above that number, as even though their premiums are subsidized, deductibles are anywhere from 2400 to 6400 per annum. That said, you are right the dead are everywhere. Poverty kills. It deteriorates every system of the body, and it's first target is the brain. The status quo is an evil waste of humanity, and poverty is grossly expensive and inefficient. UBI can't come fast enough.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    2016 deductibles can be $6,850 for an individual and $13,700 for a family. Of course the Medicaid limit is higher for the family.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    Western-style poverty (i.e. little work + wealth transfers adding up to approx $15-20k/year) doesn't kill. We have various randomized control trials which demonstrate this. Giving poor people money doesn't significantly affect health: http://m.qje.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/2/687 http://m.qje.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/2/687 The medicaid expansion similarly had no statistically significant effect on health, though it does make people feel better: https://www.nber.org/oregon/ https://www.nber.org/oregon/ The RAND experiment back in the day had similar results based on variation in coinsurance levels: http://www.rand.org/health/projects/hie.html http://www.rand.org/health/projects/hie.html Why do you keep spreading myths? Now, you may have discovered some correlations between poverty and bad health. As correlation is not causation, and an RCT is the best way to check. So apparently the correlation is caused by something else - i.e., some third factor which makes people both poor and unhealthy.
    - willholloway 10y ago
      Have you lived in Western style poverty? Have you mingled with those who patronize pawn shops and payday lenders? Please cite the various randomized control trials, and I would say it is far too early to draw conclusions on the effects of the medicaid expansion as it has only been two full years since rollout. I speak from experience, as someone from a wealthy family and a wealthy area that shunned the family business and went out with nothing to seek startup fortune. I had a good start in 2009 with a success in affiliate marketing, when that dried up I put all that I had made into another venture that limped along at sub-ramen levels for a while and then I pulled the plug. The fallout was not fun, and the effects not benign. It was pre medicaid expansion and there was no healthcare to be had, and almost no safety net to be found whatsoever. I could have gone home and had everything I needed but I wanted to make it on my own. I had been living in Boulder, Colorado and thought a move to Austin would lower expenses and extend the runway for the company. That was ill-advised, and another story, but it added another dimension to my troubles at the time. Was it a stupid risk? It was but I was young and felt invincible, and in 2010 with a liberal arts education there weren't a ton of jobs waiting for me. The wealth transfers you speak of are not easy to get. I'm not even sure where you get the 15-20k number. What else is there for a low earning single male besides SNAP, and now Medicaid. In that time, as someone who found themselves with no assets and no income the only benefit I seemed to have qualified for was about $160 a month that could be spent at the grocery store. Feeling a tremendous amount of shame I applied for SNAP benefits, even though I knew that they were really a subsidy for American farmers, ideology had trained me that subsidies for corporations are virtuous, while subsidies for basic human needs are shameful. Even though I qualified, the overworked staff denied my valid claim. It took them over a month to tell me this. It would have taken another month to apply again and maybe they would get it right that time. I gave up and having good credit financed my nutrition via credit card. I hadn't coded since elementary school, but I was able to pick up django web dev and find a high paying job in a couple months. But that happy ending is not typical. There is no way that the stress from that period didn't shave a little bit of time off my life. And the lack of liquidity prolonged the period by a good bit. I spent so much time doing this or that to get $200 for the rent, it was tremendously inefficient and stressful. Bad terrible memories, a place I never want to go back to. I was sad during all of this. It broke up the relationship I was in with someone I really loved. I spent a lot of time with those who ride the bus, with those who pawn. Their lives are very different than the lives of the families from my coastal home town. Their lives do kill them slowly, which is why life expectancy is a full dozen years longer for the wealthy. I have since moved back to the wealthy coastal town I grew up in. Life is so easy here, because there is wealth here. You can get a nice boat for almost nothing because someone just doesn't want it anymore. Someone I knew was just gifted a boat for $1 because the owner was just happy it was going to stay on the island. No one ever gives my former bus riding compatriots anything. The thing is the people that live here are no different genetically than the people at the pawn shops back in Texas. The only difference is the presence of wealth, and the virtuous effects that has when it's sustained for a few generations.
willholloway 10y ago
Depends on why they aren't working. If they have no capital, and no pension they better be in a protected class, like students, seniors, disabled, single mothers with children or be very attractive. Otherwise there is almost no financial support coming their way in the United States, except for a meager food ration that has to be primarily carbohydrates, and basic health care. Everyone will hate them, they will be chased out of any dwelling they inhabit by a man with a gun (eviction), and death will come for them eventually, as it does for us all, but for the destitute it moves with all possible haste. And that is why there is no army of millions of non working people in the US, getting by on welfare. That is a middle class myth. The only group that could do this are those who qualify for S.S disability. Most of the non-working are the rich. A lot of the people we think of as non-workers are getting by by other means, and a lot of it is the underground economy, and most of that is drug sales.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  Most of the non-working are the poor. 60% of the poor don't work at all, and 89% don't work full time. See table 3. http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2015/demo/p60-252.pdf http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publication... Are you claiming that there are more than 15.6 million non-working rich people? What do you mean by "rich"? Also, 45% of poor people own their own home. Who is evicting them, the taxman? http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf Lastly, disability fraud as a substitute for welfare is a huge problem that no one is attempting to solve. NPR did an expose on it: http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/ http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/
  - willholloway 10y ago
    60% of the poor don't collect income reportable on a w2 form. That does not mean they do not engage in productive activities that produce cash. There is a huge informal cash and barter economy of legal goods, and another one for illegal goods. And yes, the tax man will sell your home out from under you in a tax sale if you do not pay property taxes for long enough. All of us live under a sword of damocles in regards to cash flow. You gotta keep putting quarters in the meter to live in modern capitalism. I define rich as those who have sufficient wealth in financial instruments and assets such as treasury bonds and equities to pay for their lifestyle without the need to collect 1099 or w2 income. They are the only ones who truly do not work, the only ones who can truly sit back and relax. They are the real loafers, the true moochers, and the laziest of all classes of society, I also have the ambition to become one myself, but I will have no pretensions that I would be engaged in anything other than having found a way to have others serve me, no different than any lord or pharoah or emperor, and in fact with much greater security and ease.

sitkack 10y ago

They are http://www.who.int/gho/child_health/mortality/mortality_under_five_text/en/ http://www.who.int/gho/child_health/mortality/mortality_unde...

facetube 10y ago

I can show you some gravestones if you'd like. The US health system is essentially inaccessible to those with chronic but treatable conditions who aren't continually holding down relatively good jobs. I can go and get my major depression treated at $5 per minute because I have an employer that pays $20k per year for health insurance. I know families of five whose household income is less than my health insurance premium. I live in a first-world country where people buy antidepressants that they need from their friends and off the street, and have to beg/barter to refill the prescription that keeps their body from destroying their GI tract. Suicide is an ever-increasing problem. I step over the homeless on the way to work and reflexively look for signs of respiration. The dead are everywhere.

willholloway 10y ago
Obama (almost) fixed this. The Affordable Care Act extended Medicaid coverage from the absolute indigent, to those making up to 133% of the poverty line in their state, something around $16,000 per year. The group that is in a bad spot are those right above that number, as even though their premiums are subsidized, deductibles are anywhere from 2400 to 6400 per annum. That said, you are right the dead are everywhere. Poverty kills. It deteriorates every system of the body, and it's first target is the brain. The status quo is an evil waste of humanity, and poverty is grossly expensive and inefficient. UBI can't come fast enough.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  2016 deductibles can be $6,850 for an individual and $13,700 for a family. Of course the Medicaid limit is higher for the family.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  Western-style poverty (i.e. little work + wealth transfers adding up to approx $15-20k/year) doesn't kill. We have various randomized control trials which demonstrate this. Giving poor people money doesn't significantly affect health: http://m.qje.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/2/687 http://m.qje.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/2/687 The medicaid expansion similarly had no statistically significant effect on health, though it does make people feel better: https://www.nber.org/oregon/ https://www.nber.org/oregon/ The RAND experiment back in the day had similar results based on variation in coinsurance levels: http://www.rand.org/health/projects/hie.html http://www.rand.org/health/projects/hie.html Why do you keep spreading myths? Now, you may have discovered some correlations between poverty and bad health. As correlation is not causation, and an RCT is the best way to check. So apparently the correlation is caused by something else - i.e., some third factor which makes people both poor and unhealthy.
  - willholloway 10y ago
    Have you lived in Western style poverty? Have you mingled with those who patronize pawn shops and payday lenders? Please cite the various randomized control trials, and I would say it is far too early to draw conclusions on the effects of the medicaid expansion as it has only been two full years since rollout. I speak from experience, as someone from a wealthy family and a wealthy area that shunned the family business and went out with nothing to seek startup fortune. I had a good start in 2009 with a success in affiliate marketing, when that dried up I put all that I had made into another venture that limped along at sub-ramen levels for a while and then I pulled the plug. The fallout was not fun, and the effects not benign. It was pre medicaid expansion and there was no healthcare to be had, and almost no safety net to be found whatsoever. I could have gone home and had everything I needed but I wanted to make it on my own. I had been living in Boulder, Colorado and thought a move to Austin would lower expenses and extend the runway for the company. That was ill-advised, and another story, but it added another dimension to my troubles at the time. Was it a stupid risk? It was but I was young and felt invincible, and in 2010 with a liberal arts education there weren't a ton of jobs waiting for me. The wealth transfers you speak of are not easy to get. I'm not even sure where you get the 15-20k number. What else is there for a low earning single male besides SNAP, and now Medicaid. In that time, as someone who found themselves with no assets and no income the only benefit I seemed to have qualified for was about $160 a month that could be spent at the grocery store. Feeling a tremendous amount of shame I applied for SNAP benefits, even though I knew that they were really a subsidy for American farmers, ideology had trained me that subsidies for corporations are virtuous, while subsidies for basic human needs are shameful. Even though I qualified, the overworked staff denied my valid claim. It took them over a month to tell me this. It would have taken another month to apply again and maybe they would get it right that time. I gave up and having good credit financed my nutrition via credit card. I hadn't coded since elementary school, but I was able to pick up django web dev and find a high paying job in a couple months. But that happy ending is not typical. There is no way that the stress from that period didn't shave a little bit of time off my life. And the lack of liquidity prolonged the period by a good bit. I spent so much time doing this or that to get $200 for the rent, it was tremendously inefficient and stressful. Bad terrible memories, a place I never want to go back to. I was sad during all of this. It broke up the relationship I was in with someone I really loved. I spent a lot of time with those who ride the bus, with those who pawn. Their lives are very different than the lives of the families from my coastal home town. Their lives do kill them slowly, which is why life expectancy is a full dozen years longer for the wealthy. I have since moved back to the wealthy coastal town I grew up in. Life is so easy here, because there is wealth here. You can get a nice boat for almost nothing because someone just doesn't want it anymore. Someone I knew was just gifted a boat for $1 because the owner was just happy it was going to stay on the island. No one ever gives my former bus riding compatriots anything. The thing is the people that live here are no different genetically than the people at the pawn shops back in Texas. The only difference is the presence of wealth, and the virtuous effects that has when it's sustained for a few generations.

willholloway 10y ago

Depends on why they aren't working. If they have no capital, and no pension they better be in a protected class, like students, seniors, disabled, single mothers with children or be very attractive. Otherwise there is almost no financial support coming their way in the United States, except for a meager food ration that has to be primarily carbohydrates, and basic health care. Everyone will hate them, they will be chased out of any dwelling they inhabit by a man with a gun (eviction), and death will come for them eventually, as it does for us all, but for the destitute it moves with all possible haste. And that is why there is no army of millions of non working people in the US, getting by on welfare. That is a middle class myth. The only group that could do this are those who qualify for S.S disability. Most of the non-working are the rich. A lot of the people we think of as non-workers are getting by by other means, and a lot of it is the underground economy, and most of that is drug sales.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
Most of the non-working are the poor. 60% of the poor don't work at all, and 89% don't work full time. See table 3. http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2015/demo/p60-252.pdf http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publication... Are you claiming that there are more than 15.6 million non-working rich people? What do you mean by "rich"? Also, 45% of poor people own their own home. Who is evicting them, the taxman? http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf Lastly, disability fraud as a substitute for welfare is a huge problem that no one is attempting to solve. NPR did an expose on it: http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/ http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/
- willholloway 10y ago
  60% of the poor don't collect income reportable on a w2 form. That does not mean they do not engage in productive activities that produce cash. There is a huge informal cash and barter economy of legal goods, and another one for illegal goods. And yes, the tax man will sell your home out from under you in a tax sale if you do not pay property taxes for long enough. All of us live under a sword of damocles in regards to cash flow. You gotta keep putting quarters in the meter to live in modern capitalism. I define rich as those who have sufficient wealth in financial instruments and assets such as treasury bonds and equities to pay for their lifestyle without the need to collect 1099 or w2 income. They are the only ones who truly do not work, the only ones who can truly sit back and relax. They are the real loafers, the true moochers, and the laziest of all classes of society, I also have the ambition to become one myself, but I will have no pretensions that I would be engaged in anything other than having found a way to have others serve me, no different than any lord or pharoah or emperor, and in fact with much greater security and ease.