10 ms·

At the end of the day say that you paid everyone the same amount of money regardless of whether they worked or did not. And there was no additional way to make

by x5n1 10y ago

At the end of the day say that you paid everyone the same amount of money regardless of whether they worked or did not. And there was no additional way to make money. Maybe there was an additional barter economy where you could work for things that you could then trade for other things. How would that change things. Because now no one would have to work and would only do things if they wanted to do them. And everyone could enjoy their lives rather than be treated like disposable machines. I think that sort of future is one to look forward to. One without class or coercion. Where everyone literally has the same power over everyone else and the little trinkets and things that they produce themselves are traded by individuals with other individuals not for money but for things that they themselves made which then determines their worth. Even supposedly technically superior well paying work usually treats the workers like tools. Management which is often staffed by not the most intelligent has the most power in an organization. They stress coerce and harass people in order to get work out of them, work which is often earning the company multiples of what they are paying people. And that's how the whole economy is structured. It is still not is possible to be a technical person who is well paid yet still not feeling happy, pleasant, or even healthy. It can still be a somewhat miserable way to live your life. Not as miserable as being not intelligent and employable, but still can be problematic. The economy is general is not a healthy place for mental health or physical health, especially things like getting fired or layed off. You have to go out of your way already exhausted by work to find that.

MawNicker 10y ago
> Where everyone literally has the same power over everyone else I'm sympathetic to these sorts of ideals. I think you've gone too far though. I want Elon Musk to be able to exist. The working world is a lot shittier than it needs to be. It's the ultimate buyer's market. The masses are forced to sell their labor under penalty of death. The owners, however benevolent, know this. They design our jobs with it in the back of their minds. They don't want to acknowledge it directly. They know they've won more power than a meaningless game should grant any person. But I think there's a way to fix even the subtlest (and not so subtle) forms of oppression without reverting to the Harrison Bergeron society. Just guarantee everyone's basic security. I want to be able to work. Both because I like nice things and because I want to contribute to society. But frankly, I'm pretty indignant about having to do it just for my basic safety.
- x5n1 10y ago
  http://www.biznews.com/undictated/2015/05/13/elon-musk-the-billionaire-brutal-on-himself-brutal-as-a-boss/ http://www.biznews.com/undictated/2015/05/13/elon-musk-the-b... Elon Musk can be brutal with himself and then he has to convince other people to join him and those who want to experience brutality or know how to be brutal with themselves, to meet his standard will do so. And that's about it. I don't think "forcing" this on the world is a bad thing, as it's more closer to the natural order of things in hunter gatherer societies than what we have right now. In Harrison Burgeon the problem is not that people are equal. It's that they are forced by the State to be equal. People naturally have their abilities and gifts. That's not the issue. The issue is when they can coerce other people not because of those, but because of money. And make them behave on certain terms that the people never agreed to. The people simply want money so they can maintain a certain class in society. Yes it will lead to a certain order but I don't see how that order is bad for society as a whole, compared to the current order. Other than well we won't go to space as fast or we won't get X product fast. We'll get there regardless. It's fine that we have shinning super stars, that we put in charge of other people, and we can do things quicker, better, faster, cheaper because of them. But those people actually end up making everyone around them and as a group society as a whole more miserable, to get the product or service based outcome. But I don't think those things would never get done without Elon Musk or Bill Gates or whoever. They would still get done in a different way and slower. And if we're not so brutal with exploiting everything, maybe there is enough time for that. Compare that to exploiting everything at an extremely quick rate and having to come up with solutions to those problems at quicker and quicker rates which just drives everyone and everything bonkers. It's like I want driving cars and strong AI right now. Well maybe you'll get those things right now and three generations down the line the earth won't be able to support natural life and everything will have to done artificially, and so life and everyone's behavior will be even more closely regulated, because it will all need to be produced and therefore will be owned and sold for profit. I think these are the sorts of trade-offs we're looking at with the way we're running things.
  - MawNicker 10y ago
    > we won't get X product fast. I am also very sympathetic to this view. That the work would get done anyway if capitalism weren't aggressively "stimulating" us with an insidious short-term mindset. We will certainly get there regardless. It would be ideal to do it without all the externalities. But locking Elon Musk up in your utopia won't make him a constant beacon of happiness. I imagine he isn't alone in that regard. You're making a utilitarian trade that seems strikingly suboptimal. When you go off the spectrum of motivation, as Elon Musk has, you tend to get a little cranky. There needs to be a place for cranky people to work. We just can't let them dominate other people with their madness. There are plenty of willing converts. Lets actually get rid of slavery. Then there can be a flood of ex-Tesla workers if need be. I suspect Elon Musk would topple your utopia from the inside out before launching his space empire. Getting in his way is not the solution.
MarkPNeyer 10y ago
I think you've really just made the case here for starting your own company, rather than working for someone e.se
rplst8 10y ago
The system we have now is far from perfect, and it's being changed with every passing moment by more forms of automation. However, it's a system that was able to take a species of this earth and raise it out of the dirt to be able to mostly conquer its domain - and possibly the solar system and outer-space if we play our cards right. While some people who have gained powerful positions through their abilities (or their forefather's) have abused them, many have not. That said, "survival of the fittest" is still in some part responsible for the great achievements of mankind which has benefited civilization as a whole. What's interesting here is that with your plan, those achievements may end up being its downfall too. A slow slide into mediocrity is the fastest way to lose our grip on the controls of our own destiny. Barring an asteroid, super-powerful alien race, or spiteful deity, I like our chances playing the long game with what has (mostly) worked until now.
- x5n1 10y ago
  I can't help but thinking this is a sort of religious thinking. Similar to concepts of heaven. The point of life to feel good on a daily basis. Not to be miserable because you will get to some metaphorical heaven and if you don't follow the true way then you will never get there. There is no where to get to, it's all about the experiences. The world is rich with them if you are not busy being a tool for the Capital machine.
lsc 10y ago
>Even supposedly technically superior well paying work usually treats the workers like tools. Management which is often staffed by not the most intelligent has the most power in an organization. They stress coerce and harass people in order to get work out of them, work which is often earning the company multiples of what they are paying people. And that's how the whole economy is structured. It is still not is possible to be a technical person who is well paid yet still not feeling happy, pleasant, or even healthy. It can still be a somewhat miserable way to live your life. Not as miserable as being not intelligent and employable, but still can be problematic. As humans, we have this really weird way of adjusting to "normal" - You can put us in a veritable paradise (and I'm not quite sure how else to describe the modern tech company) - or you can put us in really pretty bad situations, and either way, we're gonna whine. I'm currently having many of the feelings you describe about my dayjob. But then I sit back and think: The worst day as a low-status technical grunt at this job is way better than the best day as a nerd in high school. In high school, at best you are a burden. Yeah, there were a few teachers who really went out of their way to be kind and helpful to those burdens, but you are still a burden. More usually, though, your highest value use is to be torn down so that someone else can feel slightly less terrible about themselves. Heck, I think this job is probably better on average than a few of my early jobs, which I loved at the time, simply because being treated as a thing with some small positive value is vastly better than being treated as a thing with no value, and after high school, I was so used to being treated as something with no value that being treated as if I had any value at all was absolutely wonderful. Being as I'm now used to being treated fairly well, even small slights seem to really come to the forefront, and I find myself complaining about relatively minor social issues.

by x5n1 10y ago

MawNicker 10y ago

> Where everyone literally has the same power over everyone else I'm sympathetic to these sorts of ideals. I think you've gone too far though. I want Elon Musk to be able to exist. The working world is a lot shittier than it needs to be. It's the ultimate buyer's market. The masses are forced to sell their labor under penalty of death. The owners, however benevolent, know this. They design our jobs with it in the back of their minds. They don't want to acknowledge it directly. They know they've won more power than a meaningless game should grant any person. But I think there's a way to fix even the subtlest (and not so subtle) forms of oppression without reverting to the Harrison Bergeron society. Just guarantee everyone's basic security. I want to be able to work. Both because I like nice things and because I want to contribute to society. But frankly, I'm pretty indignant about having to do it just for my basic safety.

x5n1 10y ago
http://www.biznews.com/undictated/2015/05/13/elon-musk-the-billionaire-brutal-on-himself-brutal-as-a-boss/ http://www.biznews.com/undictated/2015/05/13/elon-musk-the-b... Elon Musk can be brutal with himself and then he has to convince other people to join him and those who want to experience brutality or know how to be brutal with themselves, to meet his standard will do so. And that's about it. I don't think "forcing" this on the world is a bad thing, as it's more closer to the natural order of things in hunter gatherer societies than what we have right now. In Harrison Burgeon the problem is not that people are equal. It's that they are forced by the State to be equal. People naturally have their abilities and gifts. That's not the issue. The issue is when they can coerce other people not because of those, but because of money. And make them behave on certain terms that the people never agreed to. The people simply want money so they can maintain a certain class in society. Yes it will lead to a certain order but I don't see how that order is bad for society as a whole, compared to the current order. Other than well we won't go to space as fast or we won't get X product fast. We'll get there regardless. It's fine that we have shinning super stars, that we put in charge of other people, and we can do things quicker, better, faster, cheaper because of them. But those people actually end up making everyone around them and as a group society as a whole more miserable, to get the product or service based outcome. But I don't think those things would never get done without Elon Musk or Bill Gates or whoever. They would still get done in a different way and slower. And if we're not so brutal with exploiting everything, maybe there is enough time for that. Compare that to exploiting everything at an extremely quick rate and having to come up with solutions to those problems at quicker and quicker rates which just drives everyone and everything bonkers. It's like I want driving cars and strong AI right now. Well maybe you'll get those things right now and three generations down the line the earth won't be able to support natural life and everything will have to done artificially, and so life and everyone's behavior will be even more closely regulated, because it will all need to be produced and therefore will be owned and sold for profit. I think these are the sorts of trade-offs we're looking at with the way we're running things.
- MawNicker 10y ago
  > we won't get X product fast. I am also very sympathetic to this view. That the work would get done anyway if capitalism weren't aggressively "stimulating" us with an insidious short-term mindset. We will certainly get there regardless. It would be ideal to do it without all the externalities. But locking Elon Musk up in your utopia won't make him a constant beacon of happiness. I imagine he isn't alone in that regard. You're making a utilitarian trade that seems strikingly suboptimal. When you go off the spectrum of motivation, as Elon Musk has, you tend to get a little cranky. There needs to be a place for cranky people to work. We just can't let them dominate other people with their madness. There are plenty of willing converts. Lets actually get rid of slavery. Then there can be a flood of ex-Tesla workers if need be. I suspect Elon Musk would topple your utopia from the inside out before launching his space empire. Getting in his way is not the solution.

MarkPNeyer 10y ago

I think you've really just made the case here for starting your own company, rather than working for someone e.se

rplst8 10y ago

The system we have now is far from perfect, and it's being changed with every passing moment by more forms of automation. However, it's a system that was able to take a species of this earth and raise it out of the dirt to be able to mostly conquer its domain - and possibly the solar system and outer-space if we play our cards right. While some people who have gained powerful positions through their abilities (or their forefather's) have abused them, many have not. That said, "survival of the fittest" is still in some part responsible for the great achievements of mankind which has benefited civilization as a whole. What's interesting here is that with your plan, those achievements may end up being its downfall too. A slow slide into mediocrity is the fastest way to lose our grip on the controls of our own destiny. Barring an asteroid, super-powerful alien race, or spiteful deity, I like our chances playing the long game with what has (mostly) worked until now.

x5n1 10y ago
I can't help but thinking this is a sort of religious thinking. Similar to concepts of heaven. The point of life to feel good on a daily basis. Not to be miserable because you will get to some metaphorical heaven and if you don't follow the true way then you will never get there. There is no where to get to, it's all about the experiences. The world is rich with them if you are not busy being a tool for the Capital machine.

lsc 10y ago

>Even supposedly technically superior well paying work usually treats the workers like tools. Management which is often staffed by not the most intelligent has the most power in an organization. They stress coerce and harass people in order to get work out of them, work which is often earning the company multiples of what they are paying people. And that's how the whole economy is structured. It is still not is possible to be a technical person who is well paid yet still not feeling happy, pleasant, or even healthy. It can still be a somewhat miserable way to live your life. Not as miserable as being not intelligent and employable, but still can be problematic. As humans, we have this really weird way of adjusting to "normal" - You can put us in a veritable paradise (and I'm not quite sure how else to describe the modern tech company) - or you can put us in really pretty bad situations, and either way, we're gonna whine. I'm currently having many of the feelings you describe about my dayjob. But then I sit back and think: The worst day as a low-status technical grunt at this job is way better than the best day as a nerd in high school. In high school, at best you are a burden. Yeah, there were a few teachers who really went out of their way to be kind and helpful to those burdens, but you are still a burden. More usually, though, your highest value use is to be torn down so that someone else can feel slightly less terrible about themselves. Heck, I think this job is probably better on average than a few of my early jobs, which I loved at the time, simply because being treated as a thing with some small positive value is vastly better than being treated as a thing with no value, and after high school, I was so used to being treated as something with no value that being treated as if I had any value at all was absolutely wonderful. Being as I'm now used to being treated fairly well, even small slights seem to really come to the forefront, and I find myself complaining about relatively minor social issues.