6 ms·

Perhaps it is time to start a conversation on why suicide is seen as a problem, tout court. I always thought of suicide as a possibility among others. It’s a n

by kome 10y ago

Perhaps it is time to start a conversation on why suicide is seen as a problem, tout court. I always thought of suicide as a possibility among others. It’s a normal feeling to be tired of life. I would have suicided long time ago if suicide wasn’t so complicated and scary, with a huge risk of failure. I don’t want to feel pain, I just want to go. Like in euthanasia. I checked, and unfortunately not even Switzerland offers the possibility of euthanasia (good death) to healthy people. I really think that’s a society shortcoming, then need to be addressed in the future. What's the problem with suicide at all?

gregw134 10y ago
The biggest problem is the cost to other people, especially if the person committing suicide has children. You have a point though.
apsec112 10y ago
Good question. Scott, a psychiatrist, explains his reasons here: http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/25/in-defense-of-psych-treatment-for-attempted-suicide/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/25/in-defense-of-psych-tre....
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
simonw 10y ago
"What's the problem with suicide at all?" Aside from the horrible impact it has on friends and family (including the risk of it becoming contagious - http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/04/21/474847921/the-arctic-suicides-its-not-the-dark-that-kills-you http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/04/21/47484792... ), many people who attempt suicide and fail later decide that they are glad that they didn't go through with it.
- prodmerc 10y ago
  And many try it again.
  - namenotrequired 10y ago
    And those might be the same people, that were unlucky enough to have one tiny bad enough moment.
    - forgottenpass 10y ago
      What about all the unlucky moments of misery and/or wanting to not exist but hovering just below the threshold of suicidal? Days? Months? Years? Decades? I wish society had the balls to tell the depressed they're obligated to stay here and run out the clock, but beyond that we don't really care how miserable they are. That we'll talk about talking about depression, but not actually talk about depression [0]. That's what a shrink is for, go get one so we don't have to deal with you being mopey (I guess it'll be positive for you, too). [0] http://hotelconcierge.tumblr.com/post/116790700524/we-need-to-sing-about-mental-health http://hotelconcierge.tumblr.com/post/116790700524/we-need-t...
      - Swizec 10y ago
        As someone who used to be suicidal, I'm pretty glad I didn't do it. Sure life is still pointless and kind of meaningless, but I'm having a lot more fun than I would have if I was dead. Unexistence, while easier, doesn't sound nearly as fun. And besides, how will I ever achieve all those hopes and dreams I had as a 12 year old if I'm dead? I won't. But the longer I stay alive, the more likely it is. "Survive until tomorrow" is, in a sense, the only thing that matters. Or at least the thing that comes the closest to mattering.
        Mz 10y ago
        Unexistence, while easier, doesn't sound nearly as fun. We do not actually know that Unexistence would be easier, nor whether or not it would be fun. I don't intend any disrespect at all. I have attempted suicide and spent plenty of time suicidal. So this is a conclusion I drew in earnestness. We have no means that I know of to investigate what comes after death, whether or not something survives the physical body, etc. Many people believe in religion and an afterlife or in reincarnation. Others believe nothing survives after the body dies. But, scientifically speaking, we do not actually know. I am glad you are no longer suicidal. Peace.
dreamdu5t 10y ago
It's seen as a problem because most people who attempt suicide regret it or change their mind later.
styrophone 10y ago
I don't think suicide is inherently a much worse cause of death than many others, but it is often associated with a mental illness, outside of which the sufferer would not choose to die. Althoigh the illness manifests as free will, it is an illness nonetheless that might be treated. I don't mean to say that it is impossible for a person of sound mind to choose not to live any longer. However, given how often treatment results in improved will to live and improved quality of life, I think it would be irresponsible to assume a healthy mind without challenge and go to euthanasia as a first resort standard of care. We certainly wouldn't do that for any other presentation of symptoms.
- somedudethere 10y ago
  I'm not saying that suicide isn't associated with mental health, but when I read this I got a vague feeling of a tautology. If we define the components of mental illness as being suicidal, obviously that would lead you to classify all suicidals as mentally ill. For a long time being homosexual was seen as a mental illness and those (probably most) administering treatments saw themselves as helping them and the patient would have a higher quality of life after they were cured. The doctors thought the patient was harming themselves and their family by participating in lewd activities. Not trying to say one thing or the other about suicide. I just think it is interesting what we consider a mental illness and why and why its dangerous to go to the "mental illness" (I hate this phrasing) reasoning right away.
- s3arch 10y ago
  Some people who are suicidal are not mentally ill. Sometimes they lose perspective of their life, and this may continue for many months/years. They feel that the pain they are in now, is much worse than death. They run out of answers for "why they must live".
  - ionised 10y ago
    Yeah, ritual suicide for example was not carried out by depressed people. It was a cultural phenomenon, not mental illness.
k-mcgrady 10y ago
Many, probably most, who consider suicide are not well. They may be in good physical health but poor mental health. When we have a physical ailment we (the patient) can generally understand the path to recovery, hence we don't kill ourselves when we break an arm. With mental health not only is it difficult to understand when you are in good mental condition but it is almost impossible to see the path to recovery when you are sick. In other words wanting to end your life may be a symptom of a short term illness (say someone with depression who will be better in a few months). Differentiating between people who are of completely sound mind and want to end their life and people who are suffering need treatment is not going to be full proof so it couldn't be offered in the same way as euthanasia (similar to how most countries don't practice the death penalty - it's nearly impossible to be 100% sure of something and you need to be when it comes to doing something as permanent as ending a life).
niftich 10y ago
From a secular, philosophical point-of-view, part of it is the notion of informed consent. We, as a society, have decided that certain serious decisions should only be made by people we judge as possessing all their mental faculties and be given a neutral, pressure-free environment to formulate their point-of-view. Of course, this is subjective, and vulnerable to the no-true-Scotsman fallacy: "if you have decided to commit suicide you must have not possessed all your mental faculties or felt otherwise pressured towards that outcome." Hence find it hard to accept that their choice was made in earnest. (edit: quotes)
lazyant 10y ago
Because a lot of people attempting suicide and failing often don't try any more and lead "normal" lives, see the study on Golden Gate jumpers who survived for example ("the moment I jumped I regretted it").
- somedudethere 10y ago
  Not advocating for suicide but playing devils advocate... I would imagine that bank robbers the moment they get caught instantly regret it. But that doesn't prevent the ones that got away from completing their goal and not regretting it. People who fail suicide often have HUGE amounts of personal anguish because of the police, hospital, family, etc. all judging them from the suicide attempt. I think its easy to confuse regret of the action over all and regret that you tried the action and failed. But I imagine there are some who genuinely regret their attempts.
pimlottc 10y ago
At the very least, suicide causes a lot of grief and pain to others, generates work in dealing with the deceased, their possessions, disruptions caused, etc., and wastes a valuable resource that took years of time and effort to develop.
- ben174 10y ago
  Couldn't you say the same about any death? Regardless of reason?
  - wodenokoto 10y ago
    Yes, and the general consensus towards death is against. Parents point is that just like any other kind of death, suicidal death is a problem.

by kome 10y ago

gregw134 10y ago

The biggest problem is the cost to other people, especially if the person committing suicide has children. You have a point though.

apsec112 10y ago

Good question. Scott, a psychiatrist, explains his reasons here: http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/25/in-defense-of-psych-treatment-for-attempted-suicide/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/25/in-defense-of-psych-tre....

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

simonw 10y ago

"What's the problem with suicide at all?" Aside from the horrible impact it has on friends and family (including the risk of it becoming contagious - http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/04/21/474847921/the-arctic-suicides-its-not-the-dark-that-kills-you http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/04/21/47484792... ), many people who attempt suicide and fail later decide that they are glad that they didn't go through with it.

prodmerc 10y ago
And many try it again.
- namenotrequired 10y ago
  And those might be the same people, that were unlucky enough to have one tiny bad enough moment.
  - forgottenpass 10y ago
    What about all the unlucky moments of misery and/or wanting to not exist but hovering just below the threshold of suicidal? Days? Months? Years? Decades? I wish society had the balls to tell the depressed they're obligated to stay here and run out the clock, but beyond that we don't really care how miserable they are. That we'll talk about talking about depression, but not actually talk about depression [0]. That's what a shrink is for, go get one so we don't have to deal with you being mopey (I guess it'll be positive for you, too). [0] http://hotelconcierge.tumblr.com/post/116790700524/we-need-to-sing-about-mental-health http://hotelconcierge.tumblr.com/post/116790700524/we-need-t...
    - Swizec 10y ago
      As someone who used to be suicidal, I'm pretty glad I didn't do it. Sure life is still pointless and kind of meaningless, but I'm having a lot more fun than I would have if I was dead. Unexistence, while easier, doesn't sound nearly as fun. And besides, how will I ever achieve all those hopes and dreams I had as a 12 year old if I'm dead? I won't. But the longer I stay alive, the more likely it is. "Survive until tomorrow" is, in a sense, the only thing that matters. Or at least the thing that comes the closest to mattering.
      - Mz 10y ago
        Unexistence, while easier, doesn't sound nearly as fun. We do not actually know that Unexistence would be easier, nor whether or not it would be fun. I don't intend any disrespect at all. I have attempted suicide and spent plenty of time suicidal. So this is a conclusion I drew in earnestness. We have no means that I know of to investigate what comes after death, whether or not something survives the physical body, etc. Many people believe in religion and an afterlife or in reincarnation. Others believe nothing survives after the body dies. But, scientifically speaking, we do not actually know. I am glad you are no longer suicidal. Peace.

dreamdu5t 10y ago

It's seen as a problem because most people who attempt suicide regret it or change their mind later.

styrophone 10y ago

I don't think suicide is inherently a much worse cause of death than many others, but it is often associated with a mental illness, outside of which the sufferer would not choose to die. Althoigh the illness manifests as free will, it is an illness nonetheless that might be treated. I don't mean to say that it is impossible for a person of sound mind to choose not to live any longer. However, given how often treatment results in improved will to live and improved quality of life, I think it would be irresponsible to assume a healthy mind without challenge and go to euthanasia as a first resort standard of care. We certainly wouldn't do that for any other presentation of symptoms.

somedudethere 10y ago
I'm not saying that suicide isn't associated with mental health, but when I read this I got a vague feeling of a tautology. If we define the components of mental illness as being suicidal, obviously that would lead you to classify all suicidals as mentally ill. For a long time being homosexual was seen as a mental illness and those (probably most) administering treatments saw themselves as helping them and the patient would have a higher quality of life after they were cured. The doctors thought the patient was harming themselves and their family by participating in lewd activities. Not trying to say one thing or the other about suicide. I just think it is interesting what we consider a mental illness and why and why its dangerous to go to the "mental illness" (I hate this phrasing) reasoning right away.
s3arch 10y ago
Some people who are suicidal are not mentally ill. Sometimes they lose perspective of their life, and this may continue for many months/years. They feel that the pain they are in now, is much worse than death. They run out of answers for "why they must live".
- ionised 10y ago
  Yeah, ritual suicide for example was not carried out by depressed people. It was a cultural phenomenon, not mental illness.

k-mcgrady 10y ago

Many, probably most, who consider suicide are not well. They may be in good physical health but poor mental health. When we have a physical ailment we (the patient) can generally understand the path to recovery, hence we don't kill ourselves when we break an arm. With mental health not only is it difficult to understand when you are in good mental condition but it is almost impossible to see the path to recovery when you are sick. In other words wanting to end your life may be a symptom of a short term illness (say someone with depression who will be better in a few months). Differentiating between people who are of completely sound mind and want to end their life and people who are suffering need treatment is not going to be full proof so it couldn't be offered in the same way as euthanasia (similar to how most countries don't practice the death penalty - it's nearly impossible to be 100% sure of something and you need to be when it comes to doing something as permanent as ending a life).

niftich 10y ago

From a secular, philosophical point-of-view, part of it is the notion of informed consent. We, as a society, have decided that certain serious decisions should only be made by people we judge as possessing all their mental faculties and be given a neutral, pressure-free environment to formulate their point-of-view. Of course, this is subjective, and vulnerable to the no-true-Scotsman fallacy: "if you have decided to commit suicide you must have not possessed all your mental faculties or felt otherwise pressured towards that outcome." Hence find it hard to accept that their choice was made in earnest. (edit: quotes)

lazyant 10y ago

Because a lot of people attempting suicide and failing often don't try any more and lead "normal" lives, see the study on Golden Gate jumpers who survived for example ("the moment I jumped I regretted it").

somedudethere 10y ago
Not advocating for suicide but playing devils advocate... I would imagine that bank robbers the moment they get caught instantly regret it. But that doesn't prevent the ones that got away from completing their goal and not regretting it. People who fail suicide often have HUGE amounts of personal anguish because of the police, hospital, family, etc. all judging them from the suicide attempt. I think its easy to confuse regret of the action over all and regret that you tried the action and failed. But I imagine there are some who genuinely regret their attempts.

pimlottc 10y ago

At the very least, suicide causes a lot of grief and pain to others, generates work in dealing with the deceased, their possessions, disruptions caused, etc., and wastes a valuable resource that took years of time and effort to develop.

ben174 10y ago
Couldn't you say the same about any death? Regardless of reason?
- wodenokoto 10y ago
  Yes, and the general consensus towards death is against. Parents point is that just like any other kind of death, suicidal death is a problem.