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A Lab-Grown Diamond Is Forever
- billpg 10y agoIf they're successful, the people who run the dirt-diamond industry may end up bankrupt and digging for scraps of food on the streets. I really can't see a down-side.
- LoSboccacc 10y agoNa I expect either the industry will get into the hip of 'organic' diamond (they already used impurities giving a more nuanced color as differentiator) or will just expand laws to prevent sales of synths as jewlery. They already lobbyed the laws once after all and they aren't shorter on cash this time around so..
- kefka 10y ago"Certified Blood-Diamond free" "Cruelty-free"
- jonathankoren 10y agoThe Kimberly Process[0] from what I understand is pretty much bullshit. It purports to certify diamonds as being "conflict free", but there a numerous loopholes and laundering the source of the diamonds is trivial. That's why the diamond I bought came from Canada. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimberley_Process_Certification_Scheme https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimberley_Process_Certificat...
- jonathankoren 10y agoThe Kimberly Process[0] from what I understand is pretty much bullshit. It purports to certify diamonds as being "conflict free", but there a numerous loopholes and laundering the source of the diamonds is trivial. That's why the diamond I bought came from Canada. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimberley_Process_Certification_Scheme https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimberley_Process_Certificat...
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- henrikschroder 10y agoHoly crap they're scared though, and with the amount of money they have, it can get ugly. :-/
- joecool1029 10y agoI worked with PGD for a bit. They are concerned about usual threats that any jeweler/producer would have. But their (former) CEO also said to me that De Beers already has synthetic facilities and will likely pivot over to where IIa is in a few years. They just got the jump and are taking advantage of it. Diamond mine days are numbered.
- prodmerc 10y agoReally? They'll just pander to the rich. Luxury brands did not end up bankrupt because cheaper and just as good or even better alternatives came to the market.
- Hondor 10y agoAs long as there's a way to verify they're really natural. The article mentions synthetic diamonds getting certified and sold as natural ones. Once they become indistinguishable, how could anyone trust a luxury brand to really be what they say? Any shady trader in Africa could have contaminated the supply just as they already do with the Kimberly process. That's what's most exciting. Maybe natural diamonds will lose all their value because nobody will be able to know if they've even got one or not.
- buyx 10y agoThe population of Botswana would be bankrupt and digging for scraps of food (there is a customs union with South Africa, but beyond that, the economy doesn't seem particularly diversified).
- ourmandave 10y agoNatural diamonds companies, for their part, are taking preventative measures to ensure they don't get edged out. ... On the first day of the show, a newly-formed alliance of natural diamond companies called the Diamond Producers Association unveiled a new marketing slogan: "Real is Rare." The campaign, which goes live in September, targets young shoppers who crave real products "in a world of superficial interactions," according to a press release the DPA put out. There's no mention of synthetics in the release, but it's clear the tagline implies that lab-grown diamonds aren't "real." Don't count the mined diamond suppliers out yet. It's been all about marketing for decades so this is just the first shot.
- tsomctl 10y agoI strongly recommend you read the article "Diamonds are Bullshit" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5403988 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5403988) before reading this. To summarize, genuine diamonds are extremely plentiful. It's just that De Beers has done an excellent job limiting the supply, to artificially drive up the price. When synthetic diamonds first came out on the market, De Beers started a succesful advertising campaign basically saying that synthetic diamonds were inferior. The most interesting part of this article is that De Beers' stranglehold on the market is starting to slip; people are realizing that synthetic diamonds are good enough. It will be extremely interesting to see their advertising campaign. The march of technology carries on.
- prodmerc 10y agoThe campaign is simple: natural diamonds are for winners, lab grown are for chumps. They can probably even start charging more for them to make up for the loss of revenue. It's the same thing as buying a brand vs generic or lesser known brand, even if the latter is the same or better. Rich people pay enormous sums for vanity plates, this is no different.
- tempestn 10y agoWell, the one difference is that they're completely indistinguishable to the naked eye, so even if you're entirely driven by vanity, you could just buy a synthetic diamond (or Moissanite) and let people think it's a massive natural diamond. That said, I suspect I'm not the only one who thinks synthetic is cooler than natural. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR38h4xPfVo#t=1m10s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR38h4xPfVo#t=1m10s
- wlesieutre 10y agoExcept someone else can see your vanity plate. Is anybody going to know whether you have natural or lab grown diamonds without asking to look at your ring under a microscope? I guess some people still enjoy showing it off and proclaiming how expensive it was, but you might as well brag about having flushed a thousand dollars down the toilet for all the effect it will have on your life.
- jimmcslim 10y agoThe article always referred to the artificial diamonds as 'synthetics'. Other articles called them 'cultured' diamonds - drawing comparisons with pearls - which is a far better sounding term from a marketing perspective IMHO.
- HillaryBriss 10y agoBuried in that article I found this little gem: ...lab-grown diamonds are identical in structure and appearance to natural ones. They are, however, much cheaper. Baruch says savings may be as high as 40 percent in some cases... All this noise about a lousy forty percent discount? I was looking for a ninety eight percent discount. I was looking for diamonds flowing out of our faucets like water. Meh.
- Sharlin 10y agoThe whole raison d'être of gemstones is to be expensive! Diamonds for non-ornamental usage are already dirt cheap. If jewellery-grade diamonds were to drastically drop in price, nobody would want them anymore.
- thaumasiotes 10y agoPeople still want cubic zirconia. Diamonds are technically superior in several ways; at the same price you'd see at least as much demand.
- vidarh 10y agoPeople often want a look-a-like product because the alternative is expensive. If the diamond price nosedived, I'm sure there'd still be some demand, but it would also remove a significant reason for people to want anything that looks like diamonds. Demand might still be there because it looks nice, but whether that combined with the lower price would make overall demand go up or down is anyones guess.
- thaumasiotes 10y agoI think this is a good point, but I have some disorganized thoughts in response: I don't think people often want a product specifically because it looks like something expensive, since there are two factors at play that severely undermine using a lookalike to appear richer than you are: (1) Most of the people you interact with already have a good sense of whether you can afford the real, expensive, thing or whether you'd need to buy the lookalike; and (2) people who have one genuinely expensive thing generally have a lot of other expensive things, but you (the generic you) don't, making it difficult to carry off the impression. People definitely do often want a product specifically because it is itself expensive; I find wanting a product because some other product is expensive somewhat farfetched. You'd have to be targeting people you rarely interact with. I have a small collection of synthetic gemstones, and when I show them off to other people the responses have generally fallen into one of three groups: "Huh. What's the point of having those?"; "Wow, they're beautiful!"; or "They look fake." (I'm not sure what the group 3 people imagine gemstones are supposed to look like.) Demand in group 2 will rise with a price drop. I met one girl who made it clear that she loved my clear cubic zirconia despite my telling her it was only an imitation diamond and suggesting that I preferred the colored stones.
- jostmey 10y agoSo the entire industry of diamond squatting is on the verge of collapse, that is unless DeBeers buys out these labs.
- AnimalMuppet 10y agoDeBeers can buy out these labs. The knowledge doesn't go away, however, and so more labs get started. DeBeers can keep buying them for quite a while, I suppose, but starting them continues to be profitable if DeBeers keeps buying them...
- ridgeguy 10y agoDeBeers isn't buying out the labs. They're suing the labs for patent infringement [1]. The technology barrier to entry is low. If you have the tech chops and can spend $30K, you can do a DIY microwave plasma system and grow your own diamonds. I do this at home. Buying the extant labs won't inhibit subsequent competitors entering the business. And neither will lawsuits, in the long run. IP has a limited life. I think the brain of the DeBeers dinosaur has finally noticed the mammals gnawing on its tail, and is responding in the only way it knows how. They would be better served to go into the synthetic business themselves, using their marketing resources and > 1 century of branding weight to carve out a new business sector. DeBeers is not a fast mover, so I don't expect this to happen. [1] http://www.business-standard.com/article/markets/de-beers-group-firm-initiates-legal-suit-against-competitor-116012000484_1.html http://www.business-standard.com/article/markets/de-beers-gr...
- dharma1 10y agoWhat size diamonds can you make with your gear and how long does it take? Could you scale/automate the operation easily?
- ridgeguy 10y agoMine is mainly for research on plasma chemistry, so it's not set up for maximum deposition rate, which is an important parameter for commercial viability. I've made a 3.8 ct. unpolished stone in a 4 day run. If I were to do the laser trim (gets rid of the off-orientation edge growth) and send it out to be cut and polished, it would yield a nice DF brilliant-cut stone of ~ 1.25ct. weight. At retail, that might sell for ~$10K. Systems optimized for commercial production will get to that weight in less than 24 hours with multiple substrates. Typically, they'll grow 10 - 25 stones at once. They do this by using much higher microwave power (typically 30-60kW) at a lower frequency (915MHz) which gives a larger plasma so they can cover multiple substrates. My system is 2kW @ 2.45GHz (same as microwave ovens), so its throughput is non-commercial. But it's a nice research tool for investigating how plasma chemistry affects diamond growth. And it's fun to grow diamonds in my garden shed! :-)
- clarkmoody 10y agoI couldn't help but recall the "Submarine" [1] essay from PG, which made me wonder if this entire article wasn't just a huge PR piece written by the lab-grown diamond company. [1] http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html
- ghaff 10y agoHow do you think the vast majority of articles in this general vein end up happening? PR people reach out to reporters with stories that (they hope) said reporters will find interesting for themselves and their readers. It's how things work. Hopefully, the story still ends up being sufficiently researched but, in most cases, the reporter or their editor didn't just wake up one morning and decide this would be an interesting story.
- grondilu 10y agoHow long until someone is capable of making really big diamonds? I mean big like a soccer ball or something? Is it silly to wonder if we will one day be able to use diamond as a structural material?
- lojack 10y agoWhile diamonds are super hard, they'd make pretty poor structural materials. They don't stand up well to compressive forces, which is essential for buildings.
- jdmichal 10y agoThey are very good at withstanding compressive forces, at least on small scales. It's shearing forces that I would be concerned with. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_properties_of_diamond#Pressure_resistance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_properties_of_diamond... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_anvil_cell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_anvil_cell
- snovv_crash 10y agoThe compressive strength can't be greater than sqrt(2)*shear, because at that point you get a diagonal shear. It might be a slightly different ratio if the material has different directional strengths, but the principle holds. At least, that's what I was taught in MechEng Materials.
- jdmichal 10y agoInteresting. I know that as a crystal, diamond is going to have directional cleaving planes. Intuition says that that would be an issue with shearing loads, but at the same time it can obviously withstand very high pressures. I don't have any mech. background, so I appreciate your better informed viewpoint.
- jdmichal 10y agoDiamond isn't necessarily a good structural material. It has great hardness, but poor toughness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_properties_of_diamond#Toughness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_properties_of_diamond...
- jonathankoren 10y agoI have friend that when she was looking for an engagement ring desperately tried to find a synthetic fashion grade diamond, but couldn't anywhere. She was really bummed. She wanted the lab grown one as testament to science.
- princeb 10y agoas far as my limited experience goes, diamonds are a dime a dozen... BUT gem-quality diamonds are extremely rare, even synthetic ones. if you need to buy IF/F with an ideal cut at 0.5cts and above, it's going to be pricey, lab grown or not. the lab process will introduce colour and flaws in the diamond just as the natural process does.
- ridgeguy 10y agoThe lab processes introduce color and flaws only if they're wanted. The old way of making diamonds, growing them in metallic solvents at pressures over 50K atmospheres (where diamond is the thermodynamically stable form of carbon) produced crystals with metallic solvent inclusions and other flaws that would distinguish them from naturals. It was hard but not impossible to make a D flawless gem with HPHT methods. It was never economical because of the equipment capital cost and slow growth rate required for that type of diamond. The microwave plasma chemical vapor deposition (CVD) can make D flawless gems routinely and cheaply. Using hydrogen and methane as the source gases, one can make very nice colorless rough which can be further improved with a short post-deposition high temperature anneal in hydrogen plasma. Laser cutting and conventional faceting then give you a very nice DF rock. If you want colored diamonds, boron in the synthesis gas gives blue. Other treatments give the full color spectrum. It is possible to tell CVD synthetics from naturals, but it's not easy. Flaws and inclusions aren't usually helpful. It takes sophisticated absorption and luminescence spectroscopy to see optical features that uniquely identify CVD gems. Most jewelers don't yet have this capability.
- 6nf 10y agoShe must not have looked very hard cause I found them easily in all shapes and sizes http://www.brilliantearth.com/round-lab-created-diamond-search/ http://www.brilliantearth.com/round-lab-created-diamond-sear...
- 6nf 10y agoI was very disappointed to find that synthetic diamonds are not that much cheaper than natural ones. I'm not sure why you'd buy a synthetic since it has almost no resale value and you're not saving much on the purchase either.
- eric-hu 10y agoDiamonds have poor resale value period.
- tzm 10y agoI own a jewelry store (inherited from 1945) and grew up in the industry as a kid, so I'll humour myself with anecdotal feedback: Although I'm engineer, I have a professional background in the diamond industry. A friend of mine, an astrophysicist working on focal points, wanted a high quality diamond. I helped him secure an 'investment grade' gem. At first I proposed a lab grown diamond from Diamond Foundry to see how he responded as he understands and appreciates optics far better than I (technically), although I could argue my position as a gemologist. His response: he quickly turned down the option and wanted a natural stone, not lab grown. I found it slightly strange (from a technical standpoint), but understood his response. We secured a rare IF 1.5ct certified diamond in Tel Aviv. Natural diamonds are valued more on scarcity and irrational conditions. To sell a lab grown diamond, it may help to sell the story of the lab and the diamond cutter.
- golergka 10y agoI think you mean Ramat Gan; although it's just across the highway from diamond exchange, it's technically a different city. (My only connection to the industry is working next door to Rappaport).
- avmich 10y agoI wonder when it's possible to 3D-print the necessary shape. Given the material properties, the results could be, eh, really good.
- davedx 10y agoFuck De Beers. I bought my fiancee a lab diamond last year, for ethical reasons (nice to read it is better for the environment too). The lower price allowed me to get a better stone, too. I cannot understand the mindset that rejects lab grown diamonds. It is the pinacle of selfish, ignorant consumerism.
- digi_owl 10y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good
- ajnin 10y agoIf you reject De Beers why would you still choose to buy a diamond to your fiancee? De Beers were the ones that completely made up the diamond engagement ring business through advertising. It didn't exist before them. A diamond ring doesn't exactly scream 'anti-consumerism' either, it has practically no use and is valued only because it is expensive. To me it says 'look how important money is in my life'.
- dagw 10y agoDe Beers were the ones that completely made up the diamond engagement ring business through advertising. It didn't exist before them. De Beers were the ones that completely made up the diamond engagement ring business I don't think that's true. My grandmother's engagement ring for example was diamond and that was before the whole DeBeers thing started. What De Beers did do was move diamond from being just one of many possible options to being that only possible option for an engagement ring.
- chmike 10y agoWhat is not discussed is the benefit that diamond substrate could have in the IC industry. It conducts heat much better than silicon. The first time I heard that I found it crazy, but now that synthetic diamonds can be produced cheaper and faster that idea is not that crazy anymore.
- VeejayRampay 10y agoI'm genuinely interested because I cannot believe diamonds are still such a hit in 2016: why are people buying them?
- Cypher 10y agoI used to study next to a lab that made synthetic diamonds, the cost was about $50. Far far less than the 'savings' the article claims.