8 ms·

They don't listen to their customers because there is tremendous financial pressure to close "the analog hole". Once data has to be transmitted wirelessly, the

They don't listen to their customers because there is tremendous financial pressure to close "the analog hole". Once data has to be transmitted wirelessly, there is a much better chance that you will do it in ways that can't be pirated, but can be controlled, monitored, and profited from.

sosuke 10y ago
I know you're right but at the same time I can't remember the last time I had to use the analog hole to save some kind of media.
dloose 10y ago
Is the "analog hole" still an issue for music, now that all-you-can-eat streaming services have become the norm? Is anyone using their 3.5mm jack to capture a Spotify stream?
- 13years 10y ago
  Possibly, considering that the industry historically lagged significantly behind current reality when it comes to business practices and mindset.
- teh_klev 10y ago
  Every day I plug my phone (or tablet) into my kitchen DAB radio's auxiliary socket to listen to stuff I play on these devices whilst cooking, sitting round the table chatting with friends or just staring out the window watching the birds in my garden. I guess for me it's less about "capturing" streams but that every audio/amp device in my house, that's attached to speakers, has a line-in cable with 3.5mm jack on the end. Not having an analogue hole would be a right royal pain in the arse. [edited to fix my english]
- imgabe 10y ago
  I download songs to Spotify with premium and use the 3.5mm jack to plug it into the aux jack in my car. I guess a lot of newer cars have bluetooth pairing, but mine doesn't.
  - swiley 10y ago
    I have a car that does. My last phone would play audio on it for about 30 seconds and then immediately disconnect. On a previous version of the firmware it would reliably panic and reboot after ~20 minutes of playing music. It worked fine with other speakers but there was something"magical" going on between it and the car.
- joe_the_user 10y ago
  While streaming music currently gives lots of music for cheap, it is doing because it is competing with piracy. And efforts to control piracy are a bit hampered because of the potential to use the "analog hole" (if you could only get a given song with analog recording of Spotify, then people would do it). Further, a lot of the anti-piracy impulse is not simply a desire to charge get more money from everyone but a desire for control. Essentially, the music industry is reconciled to most people paying little for their music (or better yet, most people forced to hear advertising mixed with their music) but the industry want to have the ability to sell to people at a variety of levels. Perhaps charge more for just released music or certain artists or music connected to movie sound-tracks or for "audiophile level" audio or whatever. For a commodity that's infinitely reproducible, the ideal position is being able to separately charge each consumer exactly what they're willing to pay. Maximum utility for the owner, which would imply minimum utility for the buyer.
cm2187 10y ago
It's hard to find DRM-ed music these days. Both iTunes and Amazon will sell you DRM-free music. Not convinced this is a driver of the design.
- mschuster91 10y ago
  It's not about music. It's about movies, or why else should anyone be interested in a 4K phone screen? And with movies, there's the ridiculous HDCP crap... and I highly believe that the MAFIAA would give manufacturers with a fully protected AV path cheaper licensing.
  - cm2187 10y ago
    All you would be able to steal is the soundtrack then.
    - mschuster91 10y ago
      From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content_Protection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content... > it must not transmit high definition protected video to non-HDCP receivers; and DVD-Audio material can be played only at CD-audio quality[7] by non-HDCP digital audio outputs (analog audio outputs have no quality limits) Analog hole is still analog hole, and the MAFIAA wants to close it.
      - joesmo 10y ago
        If you can play CD quality audio, it's hardly a hole. Better quality is only useful during creation/mixing. It's not like DVD audio is better, even if it has a higher sampling rate (probably worse then actually) or higher bit encoding.
        gwbas1c 10y ago
        Humans can hear up to 28khz when paying close attention. "CD Quality" is slightly below the threshold of hearing, at a point where most people don't notice the difference or care to notice the difference. It's also somewhat poorly-defined, because "CD quality" can mean lousy mid-range performance when rounding 24-bit to 16-bit, or high frequency hiss when noise-shaping 24-bit to 16-bit. So "CD quality audio" is quite a degradation when you listen in a 100% quiet room with expensive speakers and your full attention.
djsumdog 10y ago
I doubt they'll be HDCP over USB-C. There are much easier ways to rip DRM music anyway (and most of the stuff people play today isn't under DRM unless you rent your music from Spotify).

sosuke 10y ago

I know you're right but at the same time I can't remember the last time I had to use the analog hole to save some kind of media.

dloose 10y ago

Is the "analog hole" still an issue for music, now that all-you-can-eat streaming services have become the norm? Is anyone using their 3.5mm jack to capture a Spotify stream?

13years 10y ago
Possibly, considering that the industry historically lagged significantly behind current reality when it comes to business practices and mindset.
teh_klev 10y ago
Every day I plug my phone (or tablet) into my kitchen DAB radio's auxiliary socket to listen to stuff I play on these devices whilst cooking, sitting round the table chatting with friends or just staring out the window watching the birds in my garden. I guess for me it's less about "capturing" streams but that every audio/amp device in my house, that's attached to speakers, has a line-in cable with 3.5mm jack on the end. Not having an analogue hole would be a right royal pain in the arse. [edited to fix my english]
imgabe 10y ago
I download songs to Spotify with premium and use the 3.5mm jack to plug it into the aux jack in my car. I guess a lot of newer cars have bluetooth pairing, but mine doesn't.
- swiley 10y ago
  I have a car that does. My last phone would play audio on it for about 30 seconds and then immediately disconnect. On a previous version of the firmware it would reliably panic and reboot after ~20 minutes of playing music. It worked fine with other speakers but there was something"magical" going on between it and the car.
joe_the_user 10y ago
While streaming music currently gives lots of music for cheap, it is doing because it is competing with piracy. And efforts to control piracy are a bit hampered because of the potential to use the "analog hole" (if you could only get a given song with analog recording of Spotify, then people would do it). Further, a lot of the anti-piracy impulse is not simply a desire to charge get more money from everyone but a desire for control. Essentially, the music industry is reconciled to most people paying little for their music (or better yet, most people forced to hear advertising mixed with their music) but the industry want to have the ability to sell to people at a variety of levels. Perhaps charge more for just released music or certain artists or music connected to movie sound-tracks or for "audiophile level" audio or whatever. For a commodity that's infinitely reproducible, the ideal position is being able to separately charge each consumer exactly what they're willing to pay. Maximum utility for the owner, which would imply minimum utility for the buyer.

cm2187 10y ago

It's hard to find DRM-ed music these days. Both iTunes and Amazon will sell you DRM-free music. Not convinced this is a driver of the design.

mschuster91 10y ago
It's not about music. It's about movies, or why else should anyone be interested in a 4K phone screen? And with movies, there's the ridiculous HDCP crap... and I highly believe that the MAFIAA would give manufacturers with a fully protected AV path cheaper licensing.
- cm2187 10y ago
  All you would be able to steal is the soundtrack then.
  - mschuster91 10y ago
    From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content_Protection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content... > it must not transmit high definition protected video to non-HDCP receivers; and DVD-Audio material can be played only at CD-audio quality[7] by non-HDCP digital audio outputs (analog audio outputs have no quality limits) Analog hole is still analog hole, and the MAFIAA wants to close it.
    - joesmo 10y ago
      If you can play CD quality audio, it's hardly a hole. Better quality is only useful during creation/mixing. It's not like DVD audio is better, even if it has a higher sampling rate (probably worse then actually) or higher bit encoding.
      - gwbas1c 10y ago
        Humans can hear up to 28khz when paying close attention. "CD Quality" is slightly below the threshold of hearing, at a point where most people don't notice the difference or care to notice the difference. It's also somewhat poorly-defined, because "CD quality" can mean lousy mid-range performance when rounding 24-bit to 16-bit, or high frequency hiss when noise-shaping 24-bit to 16-bit. So "CD quality audio" is quite a degradation when you listen in a 100% quiet room with expensive speakers and your full attention.

djsumdog 10y ago

I doubt they'll be HDCP over USB-C. There are much easier ways to rip DRM music anyway (and most of the stuff people play today isn't under DRM unless you rent your music from Spotify).