10 ms·

Not if Toronto keeps hemorrhaging talent. I graduated from the University of Toronto last year and can only name 2 of my classmates who are actually working in

by lcc 10y ago

Not if Toronto keeps hemorrhaging talent. I graduated from the University of Toronto last year and can only name 2 of my classmates who are actually working in Toronto now. The rest are in SF, Seattle, and NYC - including many people who have family in Toronto, like me. All of my friends who were seriously working on a startup have moved it to the Bay Area. Many of us would love to move back to Toronto 'eventually', for family reasons and because it's a great city overall, but for now the money and opportunities in the States are too good. In SF I'm making 2-3x what I'd make in Toronto and get to work on a globally-relevant system. And 80% of my social network is here now, too.

arez 10y ago
do you get a green card easier as a canadian than people from europe for example? I'm from germany and know many people who would like to work in the states, but it's really a big problem to get the green card. It takes companies much effort and money to get you in the states for more than 3 months.
- oniTony 10y ago
  Canadians get access to TN class work visa. It's meant for temporary work, but gives a few years to figure out a more permanent approach.
  - clessg 10y ago
    What would a more permanent approach be? Marriage?
    - coke12 10y ago
      H-1B, O-1, L-1, and perhaps more.
      - clessg 10y ago
        I thought the H-1B was a temporary visa?
        hoddez 10y ago
        I am not an immigration lawyer, but this is my understanding: The H-1B is similar to the TN but each have their pros / cons: TN is much cheaper (~$50 + lawyer fees) and there is no cap / application deadline. You apply at the border so there is also virtually no waiting time assuming you get it. The downside of the TN is that it is a "temporary" permit. Technically it's not actually a visa. It simply allows you to work and live in the US for a "temporary" amount of time. The temporary part is very gray in this case, since it is up to the discretion of the border guard to determine if you are using it in a temporary sense. Similar to the H-1B it can last for up to 3 years, and can be renewed after that. The other big difference is that dual-intent is not allowed on the TN permit. In other words, you are not supposed to apply for a green card while you are on it. The H-1B is dual intent and therefore that's what you want if you want to get a greencard. A pretty typical path for Canadians who start working in the US and decide to stay is TN -> H-1B -> Green Card. However, it is not easier for Canadians to get an H-1B. They must participate in the lottery like everybody else.
        potatolicious 10y ago
        One correction: > "In other words, you are not supposed to apply for a green card while you are on it." You can actually do this, it's very painful but it's not rare. The gotcha is that the moment you leave the country your TN is kaput, so you're effectively trapped in the USA until the green card process is complete.
        ctrl_freak 10y ago
        > The gotcha is that the moment you leave the country your TN is kaput, so you're effectively trapped in the USA until the green card process is complete. Not quite true. Once you've filed for adjustment of status (which you can only do once your priority date is current), you can also file an I-131 for advanced parole, and after receiving this, you can leave and re-enter the US with it. Technically you're not on a TN anymore though.
      - sprite 10y ago
        Don't forget eb5 except it's super slow. Probably takes 2 years from initial investment until you have your conditional greencard. Then another couple of years until you have a full fledged one.
    - cylinder 10y ago
      Work in overseas branch as a manager. Get moved to US on L1 visa. Apply for employment based green card, takes about a year.
      - 086421357909764 10y ago
        Isn't this how a lot of the big firms are using Their European offices? I've met a lot of people in the valley that worked in places like Zurich, or London for their first year with the company before moving to CA.
    - serge2k 10y ago
      Companies will sponsor a green card on a TN, it is just riskier since it's not a dual intent visa. You can also apply for H-1B and if you get that then you can just switch to it then apply for a green card.
  - Roritharr 10y ago
    Would that be the same for Germans?
    - hoddez 10y ago
      No sorry, the TN is only available to Canadians and Mexicans. It's based on NAFTA. https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/employment/nafta.html https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/employment/nafta.h...
- mahyarm 10y ago
  You have to immigrate like all the other immigrants, but since you are German, the permanent resident quota is barely used for your nationality. The USA creates a quota system for green cards and then splits them up on a nationality basis. India, China and the Philippines have a long lineup for visas. The USA creates a quota/lineup system on a per country basis. You have 3 basic options: 1. Work at a European office for a year, transfer on an L visa, apply for a green card once your in the USA. 2. Apply for an H1-B around march/april, see if you made the lottery, get your visa in october, apply for a green card once your in the usa. 3. Work at a European office for X years, apply for a green card outside of the USA, starting immediately while your working there, wait until you get a green card, move to the USA. It took about a 1 year to 1.5 years for a former coworker to do it this way. O-1 & E visas are too special case to think about for the most part. And there is always getting married to a US citizen.
  - lewisl9029 10y ago
    #3 is an interesting option that I hadn't heard of until now. Would this option be available to remote workers? Or is it reserved only for those working with companies that have a physical office in their country as well as the US?
    - mahyarm 10y ago
      Actually you don't have to be working for the company at all for #3. I think he wasn't working for the company until his green card came through. Basically it's like applying for a green card normally, except your out of the country and you get the visa with "consular processing". I'm not sure if you can work remotely for the company or not while the green card process is happening. I think most employers don't want to do it although because your not working for them while it's processing. With a dual intent visa you can work for the company while the green card is processing and your in the US office. This outlines it: http://www.path2usa.com/employment-based-green-card http://www.path2usa.com/employment-based-green-card *Note: I know technically employers apply for you, not you yourself independently. It's just easier to write it that way.
  - chrisper 10y ago
- hackerboos 10y ago
  TN visas aren't dual purpose so when it comes to staying permanently Canadians are on the backlog with the rest of the world.
lewisl9029 10y ago
Waterloo grad here. Seeing pretty much the same thing. Really not difficult to imagine why Canadian tech companies have mostly stopped being competitive on the global stage, considering most of the talent they have access to at these pitiful salaries are essentially left-overs. Unfortunately, I honestly don't see how the situation can improve. It's a classic tragedy of the commons situation. Companies act in self-interest by paying as low as they possibly can, with no regards for the damage being done to the Canadian talent pool, and have little incentive to do otherwise until most of their peers do the same.
- 086421357909764 10y ago
  Interestingly this is almost the same commentary for every "next silicon valley" city we read about here. I think sometimes people are trying to cash in on the ideal before it's even been formed. Why is everyone so rushed to be the next SV anyway? Why not be the best Toronto, or whatever city of focus that happens to support entrepreneurship through whatever programs. I feel like being a next SV town is sort of like how every un-employed person I know is the CEO of a startup : / .
  - lewisl9029 10y ago
    > Interestingly this is almost the same commentary for every "next silicon valley" city we read about here. That may be true, but you have to realize even the other "next silicon valley" contenders in the US can easily offer more than double the salary to developers compared to Canadian cities like Toronto and Vancouver. Toronto is not even playing in the same league in that aspect.
    - 086421357909764 10y ago
      :*(
    - cmrdporcupine 10y ago
      Even worse than the salary is the attitude at Toronto area startups. Elitist "you-should-feel-so-lucky-you're-at-a-startup-now-work-for-peanuts"... Leaving the Toronto ad-tech startup I was at to work (remote) for a NYC ad-tech startup (well, recent startup and growing) was the best thing that ever happened to me. Got lucky to work for the best founders and senior management I have ever had in my career.
adomanico 10y ago
Hit the nail on the head. Until Toronto can match the competitive salaries in the Bay Area I will be working in the US.
- treve 10y ago
  Kind of surprised that this seems to be the sentiment. I rather live in a place where I make less, but the wealth is better distributed. To me a high standard of living is not just a good salary, but also good living conditions of those around me. If Toronto is to be the next Bay Area, and I have to walk over the homeless to get to work, I'm out of here.
  - aianus 10y ago
    > To me a high standard of living is not just a good salary, but also good living conditions of those around me. To most it's the opposite. Wealth is relative so I'd rather live in a 3rd world country making $50k than SF making $150k.
    - rpgmaker 10y ago
      I doubt anyone can make you leave the States or Canada to work on a third world country for that paltry amount of money.
    - rayiner 10y ago
      Have you ever lived in a third world country? I lived in Bangladesh until I was 5. Homeless people in SF is one thing. But children begging in the street. Fuck, I don't have the stomach for that.
      - aianus 10y ago
        Yes, I lived in Vietnam (where the median salary is $150-$200 a month) for 6 months on ~$20,000. It was loads of fun and I enjoyed a lifestyle equivalent to earning at least $250k back in SF. Hotel room in the city center, maid service, bar night every night, motorcycle, valet parking everywhere, restaurants 3x a day, etc. > But children begging in the street. Fuck, I don't have the stomach for that There appeared to be a lot less of that level of poverty in Saigon than in SF, but maybe that's because poor people don't live in the city like they do in the US. In any case, my presence there surely wasn't making anyone poorer so I don't feel bad about it.
rattray 10y ago
Do you think there'll be opportunities to start terrific technology companies in Toronto ~5-10 years down the line, when "everyone moves back"? Especially if they pay better?
- lcc 10y ago
  There's always the opportunity. You could start a terrific technology company in Toronto (and stay there) right now, but you'd be an outlier. That said, I think it'll only take a few high-visibility 'anchor' companies to seed the city and start pulling people back in. And that could very reasonably happen in the next 5-10 years.
querulous 10y ago
toronto salaries would shock most american developers. a startup i interviewed at starts entry level developers at $42k and senior developers were making $70k. i was told my ask of $125k cdn was double what they would consider paying me
- ReactForAll 10y ago
  I am not sure what startups you are applying for, number one rule in Toronto is 1. never use a recruiter because they take 20-10K of your salary, or the companies hiring budget. 2. Apply to startups that are doing well. I am making 120K cad, at a startup. I am a senior tl in training though.
- nasalgoat 10y ago
  Yeah, anything over $100K CDN is basically impossible in Toronto - anyone that good is already working down south.
jkoudys 10y ago
I recently had to make that same decision myself, and chose Toronto. The salaries on the jobs I was interviewing for (not to mention perks) were astronomically high. I'd considered just going to work for 3 years, saving as much as I could, then coming back to Canada. I the end, I worried that I would never come back in spite of my early intentions. Toronto's a great city, and I'm quite comfortable with my compensation, but I don't begrudge anyone who moves for the chance to be instantly wealthy.
err4nt 10y ago
You forget that as you move out, talent moves in as well! I collaborate with a bunch of super-talented creative people here and all of us are new to the city. Just because Toronto-born people leave doesn't mean Toronto has a talent shortage :D
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- matt_wulfeck 10y ago
  It depends on how long they can resist the suction that is the Bay Area.
edwinnathaniel 10y ago
Is the ratio of compensation really 2-3x? One datapoint: Senior Dev (say Level 1 Senior) base pay is $100k. So are you saying SF will pay this person at least $200k?
- cnfjti3 10y ago
  Yes, seniors usually get more than 250k at established companies. Provided you can make it in as a senior.
- lcc 10y ago
  Yes. Junior dev base pay in SF is 100k. I know junior devs here making 130k. Add RSUs, factor in the exchange rate... the multiplier is easily 2-3x.
hackerboos 10y ago
Could be worse. Salaries in London, UK are even lower than Toronto.
- reledi 10y ago
  Doesn't feel like it for me.
  - hackerboos 10y ago
    It was anecdotal but I think once you factor in rent it's definitely lower. Average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in centre of Toronto is £750. In London it's twice that and probably not in the centre. Plus tenants pay the taxes on property in the UK. Taxes are also higher in the UK than Canada. Travel cards in Toronto are fixed at £75 a month. In London you pay for your zone which starts at £124.50 going above £300+ for Zone 9. No doubt it's a better network but Toronto's flat rate system is better on your wallet.

by lcc 10y ago

arez 10y ago

do you get a green card easier as a canadian than people from europe for example? I'm from germany and know many people who would like to work in the states, but it's really a big problem to get the green card. It takes companies much effort and money to get you in the states for more than 3 months.

oniTony 10y ago
Canadians get access to TN class work visa. It's meant for temporary work, but gives a few years to figure out a more permanent approach.
- clessg 10y ago
  What would a more permanent approach be? Marriage?
  - coke12 10y ago
    H-1B, O-1, L-1, and perhaps more.
    - clessg 10y ago
      I thought the H-1B was a temporary visa?
      - hoddez 10y ago
        I am not an immigration lawyer, but this is my understanding: The H-1B is similar to the TN but each have their pros / cons: TN is much cheaper (~$50 + lawyer fees) and there is no cap / application deadline. You apply at the border so there is also virtually no waiting time assuming you get it. The downside of the TN is that it is a "temporary" permit. Technically it's not actually a visa. It simply allows you to work and live in the US for a "temporary" amount of time. The temporary part is very gray in this case, since it is up to the discretion of the border guard to determine if you are using it in a temporary sense. Similar to the H-1B it can last for up to 3 years, and can be renewed after that. The other big difference is that dual-intent is not allowed on the TN permit. In other words, you are not supposed to apply for a green card while you are on it. The H-1B is dual intent and therefore that's what you want if you want to get a greencard. A pretty typical path for Canadians who start working in the US and decide to stay is TN -> H-1B -> Green Card. However, it is not easier for Canadians to get an H-1B. They must participate in the lottery like everybody else.
        potatolicious 10y ago
        One correction: > "In other words, you are not supposed to apply for a green card while you are on it." You can actually do this, it's very painful but it's not rare. The gotcha is that the moment you leave the country your TN is kaput, so you're effectively trapped in the USA until the green card process is complete.
        ctrl_freak 10y ago
        > The gotcha is that the moment you leave the country your TN is kaput, so you're effectively trapped in the USA until the green card process is complete. Not quite true. Once you've filed for adjustment of status (which you can only do once your priority date is current), you can also file an I-131 for advanced parole, and after receiving this, you can leave and re-enter the US with it. Technically you're not on a TN anymore though.
    - sprite 10y ago
      Don't forget eb5 except it's super slow. Probably takes 2 years from initial investment until you have your conditional greencard. Then another couple of years until you have a full fledged one.
  - cylinder 10y ago
    Work in overseas branch as a manager. Get moved to US on L1 visa. Apply for employment based green card, takes about a year.
    - 086421357909764 10y ago
      Isn't this how a lot of the big firms are using Their European offices? I've met a lot of people in the valley that worked in places like Zurich, or London for their first year with the company before moving to CA.
  - serge2k 10y ago
    Companies will sponsor a green card on a TN, it is just riskier since it's not a dual intent visa. You can also apply for H-1B and if you get that then you can just switch to it then apply for a green card.
- Roritharr 10y ago
  Would that be the same for Germans?
  - hoddez 10y ago
    No sorry, the TN is only available to Canadians and Mexicans. It's based on NAFTA. https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/employment/nafta.html https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/employment/nafta.h...
mahyarm 10y ago
You have to immigrate like all the other immigrants, but since you are German, the permanent resident quota is barely used for your nationality. The USA creates a quota system for green cards and then splits them up on a nationality basis. India, China and the Philippines have a long lineup for visas. The USA creates a quota/lineup system on a per country basis. You have 3 basic options: 1. Work at a European office for a year, transfer on an L visa, apply for a green card once your in the USA. 2. Apply for an H1-B around march/april, see if you made the lottery, get your visa in october, apply for a green card once your in the usa. 3. Work at a European office for X years, apply for a green card outside of the USA, starting immediately while your working there, wait until you get a green card, move to the USA. It took about a 1 year to 1.5 years for a former coworker to do it this way. O-1 & E visas are too special case to think about for the most part. And there is always getting married to a US citizen.
- lewisl9029 10y ago
  #3 is an interesting option that I hadn't heard of until now. Would this option be available to remote workers? Or is it reserved only for those working with companies that have a physical office in their country as well as the US?
  - mahyarm 10y ago
    Actually you don't have to be working for the company at all for #3. I think he wasn't working for the company until his green card came through. Basically it's like applying for a green card normally, except your out of the country and you get the visa with "consular processing". I'm not sure if you can work remotely for the company or not while the green card process is happening. I think most employers don't want to do it although because your not working for them while it's processing. With a dual intent visa you can work for the company while the green card is processing and your in the US office. This outlines it: http://www.path2usa.com/employment-based-green-card http://www.path2usa.com/employment-based-green-card *Note: I know technically employers apply for you, not you yourself independently. It's just easier to write it that way.
- chrisper 10y ago
hackerboos 10y ago
TN visas aren't dual purpose so when it comes to staying permanently Canadians are on the backlog with the rest of the world.

lewisl9029 10y ago

Waterloo grad here. Seeing pretty much the same thing. Really not difficult to imagine why Canadian tech companies have mostly stopped being competitive on the global stage, considering most of the talent they have access to at these pitiful salaries are essentially left-overs. Unfortunately, I honestly don't see how the situation can improve. It's a classic tragedy of the commons situation. Companies act in self-interest by paying as low as they possibly can, with no regards for the damage being done to the Canadian talent pool, and have little incentive to do otherwise until most of their peers do the same.

086421357909764 10y ago
Interestingly this is almost the same commentary for every "next silicon valley" city we read about here. I think sometimes people are trying to cash in on the ideal before it's even been formed. Why is everyone so rushed to be the next SV anyway? Why not be the best Toronto, or whatever city of focus that happens to support entrepreneurship through whatever programs. I feel like being a next SV town is sort of like how every un-employed person I know is the CEO of a startup : / .
- lewisl9029 10y ago
  > Interestingly this is almost the same commentary for every "next silicon valley" city we read about here. That may be true, but you have to realize even the other "next silicon valley" contenders in the US can easily offer more than double the salary to developers compared to Canadian cities like Toronto and Vancouver. Toronto is not even playing in the same league in that aspect.
  - 086421357909764 10y ago
    :*(
  - cmrdporcupine 10y ago
    Even worse than the salary is the attitude at Toronto area startups. Elitist "you-should-feel-so-lucky-you're-at-a-startup-now-work-for-peanuts"... Leaving the Toronto ad-tech startup I was at to work (remote) for a NYC ad-tech startup (well, recent startup and growing) was the best thing that ever happened to me. Got lucky to work for the best founders and senior management I have ever had in my career.

adomanico 10y ago

Hit the nail on the head. Until Toronto can match the competitive salaries in the Bay Area I will be working in the US.

treve 10y ago
Kind of surprised that this seems to be the sentiment. I rather live in a place where I make less, but the wealth is better distributed. To me a high standard of living is not just a good salary, but also good living conditions of those around me. If Toronto is to be the next Bay Area, and I have to walk over the homeless to get to work, I'm out of here.
- aianus 10y ago
  > To me a high standard of living is not just a good salary, but also good living conditions of those around me. To most it's the opposite. Wealth is relative so I'd rather live in a 3rd world country making $50k than SF making $150k.
  - rpgmaker 10y ago
    I doubt anyone can make you leave the States or Canada to work on a third world country for that paltry amount of money.
  - rayiner 10y ago
    Have you ever lived in a third world country? I lived in Bangladesh until I was 5. Homeless people in SF is one thing. But children begging in the street. Fuck, I don't have the stomach for that.
    - aianus 10y ago
      Yes, I lived in Vietnam (where the median salary is $150-$200 a month) for 6 months on ~$20,000. It was loads of fun and I enjoyed a lifestyle equivalent to earning at least $250k back in SF. Hotel room in the city center, maid service, bar night every night, motorcycle, valet parking everywhere, restaurants 3x a day, etc. > But children begging in the street. Fuck, I don't have the stomach for that There appeared to be a lot less of that level of poverty in Saigon than in SF, but maybe that's because poor people don't live in the city like they do in the US. In any case, my presence there surely wasn't making anyone poorer so I don't feel bad about it.

rattray 10y ago

Do you think there'll be opportunities to start terrific technology companies in Toronto ~5-10 years down the line, when "everyone moves back"? Especially if they pay better?

lcc 10y ago
There's always the opportunity. You could start a terrific technology company in Toronto (and stay there) right now, but you'd be an outlier. That said, I think it'll only take a few high-visibility 'anchor' companies to seed the city and start pulling people back in. And that could very reasonably happen in the next 5-10 years.

querulous 10y ago

toronto salaries would shock most american developers. a startup i interviewed at starts entry level developers at $42k and senior developers were making $70k. i was told my ask of $125k cdn was double what they would consider paying me

ReactForAll 10y ago
I am not sure what startups you are applying for, number one rule in Toronto is 1. never use a recruiter because they take 20-10K of your salary, or the companies hiring budget. 2. Apply to startups that are doing well. I am making 120K cad, at a startup. I am a senior tl in training though.
nasalgoat 10y ago
Yeah, anything over $100K CDN is basically impossible in Toronto - anyone that good is already working down south.

jkoudys 10y ago

I recently had to make that same decision myself, and chose Toronto. The salaries on the jobs I was interviewing for (not to mention perks) were astronomically high. I'd considered just going to work for 3 years, saving as much as I could, then coming back to Canada. I the end, I worried that I would never come back in spite of my early intentions. Toronto's a great city, and I'm quite comfortable with my compensation, but I don't begrudge anyone who moves for the chance to be instantly wealthy.

err4nt 10y ago

You forget that as you move out, talent moves in as well! I collaborate with a bunch of super-talented creative people here and all of us are new to the city. Just because Toronto-born people leave doesn't mean Toronto has a talent shortage :D

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
matt_wulfeck 10y ago
It depends on how long they can resist the suction that is the Bay Area.

edwinnathaniel 10y ago

Is the ratio of compensation really 2-3x? One datapoint: Senior Dev (say Level 1 Senior) base pay is $100k. So are you saying SF will pay this person at least $200k?

cnfjti3 10y ago
Yes, seniors usually get more than 250k at established companies. Provided you can make it in as a senior.
lcc 10y ago
Yes. Junior dev base pay in SF is 100k. I know junior devs here making 130k. Add RSUs, factor in the exchange rate... the multiplier is easily 2-3x.

hackerboos 10y ago

Could be worse. Salaries in London, UK are even lower than Toronto.

reledi 10y ago
Doesn't feel like it for me.
- hackerboos 10y ago
  It was anecdotal but I think once you factor in rent it's definitely lower. Average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in centre of Toronto is £750. In London it's twice that and probably not in the centre. Plus tenants pay the taxes on property in the UK. Taxes are also higher in the UK than Canada. Travel cards in Toronto are fixed at £75 a month. In London you pay for your zone which starts at £124.50 going above £300+ for Zone 9. No doubt it's a better network but Toronto's flat rate system is better on your wallet.