4 ms·

I think a huge source of blame lies in organizations like the NSA/CIA that have proven to be deceptive / secretive / manipulative. There is a long history of s

I think a huge source of blame lies in organizations like the NSA/CIA that have proven to be deceptive / secretive / manipulative. There is a long history of secret experiements done by government that breeds distrust. Add mental health issues and the internet and you have a cauldron which can easily brew up this sort of thing. I think a good type of treatment for this would be body cameras and mikes which a therapist could review with a patient and provide them with rational explanations.

jsprogrammer 10y ago
Yep, the only treatment that makes sense, isn't even discussed in this journalistic article (or, even by medical professionals). These claims seem like they would be pretty easy to verify with some recording equipment.
- jMyles 10y ago
  In my experience having friends go through this, the most verifiable, rational repudiations of delusions are still useless during an episode. However, they can be very reassuring after an episode has subsided.
  - jsprogrammer 10y ago
    You know someone who has believed they were recording something that they were not? Were they watching the output of the recording, while still believing "it" was occurring?
    - serf 10y ago
      I have been in that position, the person when asked will usually just reinforce their position with a statement like "It was there, I swear it was.", fault their recording technique, or their equipment. Believing your mind is playing tricks on you is really the last ditch effort at rationalizing something for most people. They don't come to that conclusion easily without some sort of history or practice doing so.
    - axlprose 10y ago
      This video was linked in the article: https://youtu.be/b2hBDKtm-y0 https://youtu.be/b2hBDKtm-y0 The person recording clearly believes he's captured evidence of spys tracking him, yet the footage seems to show an ordinary trip to the subway with fellow pedestrians minding their own business. And there seem to be many other videos along those same lines.
      - jsprogrammer 10y ago
        I hadn't clicked that link before. The narrator doesn't make many substantive claims that can be tested. He mostly just says a particular person was there, which the video seems to show. I was thinking of some of the more testable claims made in the article. For instance, the person who claimed that their behavior was being mimicked.
        jsprogrammer 10y ago
        Heh, downmods for this series?
- nimblegorilla 10y ago
  Why would anyone think it's a good idea to treat surveillance paranoia by having people strap cameras to their bodies?
  - Retra 10y ago
    Probably for the same reason they think the CIA is 'hugely' responsible for mental illness.
sshykes 10y ago
Disclaimer: I am not a psychiatrist or medical professional. With that being said, I've known a fair number of varying degrees of paranoid people. I suspect this tactic would oftentimes just play into, indulge, and validate their paranoia.
- AckSyn 10y ago
  If they're really after you, is it really paranoia?
  - ccrush 10y ago
    Yes. Otherwise, you wouldn't have noticed we're after you.
    - mistersquid 10y ago
      [As a disclaimer, the following is not an elaborate troll. When I was a practicing scholar of American Literature, psychoanalysis was one of my areas of specialization. What I write below is/was characteristic of psychoanalytic thought in the context of literary and cultural studies. Having left academia 7 years ago, I can see how some of my fellow HNers might be suspicious of such a seemingly convoluted and obtuse form of discourse.] Though you've been downvoted, the structure of your seemingly casual observation is validated by some of the most renown psychoanalytic and philosophical thinkers of the 20th and 21st centuries. (In the US, psychoanalysis is largely repudiated as a therapeutic pathway for severe mental illness such as paranoid schizophrenia. However, philosophy and psychoanalytic thinking can provide occasionally valuable insights into the nature of human psychology, each capable of being productive and provocative in equal measure.) In _Jacques Lacan's Four Discourses_ (Lacan has been referred to as the "French Freud"), Slavoj Zizek asks readers to > Recall, again, Lacan's outrageous statements that, even if what a jealous husband claims about his wife (that she sleeps around with other men) is all true, his jealousy is still pathological. [0] This is probably a misattribution by Zizek (or a conflation) since Sigmund Freud makes the comparison in the _Standard Edition_ (XVIII, 226). > Freud suggests that a jealous husband who is obsessed with the idea that his wife is cheating on him can be described as paranoid even if it turns out that his wife is cheating on him. [1] Without question, the priapic over-concern with the possibility of spousal infidelity is characteristic of masculinist psychoanalytic discourse. However, the kernel of truth in this is that one's internal representation is separate from reality, however closely the two may match. In other words, paranoia is pathological (belief in gang-stalking) even if it is matched by a dysfunctional reality (CIA surveillance) and this can be seen in the opposite case of a naive subject who neither suspects nor fears being surveilled despite being surveilled in reality (e.g. a psychologically healthy subject who is targeted by state surveillance). In short, paranoid fantasies may in fact be matched by reality, but that does not make the paranoid fantasies any less paranoid. Conversely, blissful ignorance may be contradicted by reality, but that does not necessarily make the subject any less blissful. (As a bonus, the paragraph from which the Zizek quote is drawn continues in its next sentence to explain how anti-Semitism draws upon psychopathological thinking to validate its ideological end. In other words, anti-Semitism for Zizek is structurally/phenomenologically identical to paranoia.) [0] http://www.lacan.com/zizfour.htm http://www.lacan.com/zizfour.htm [1] http://bit.ly/1WKHjQ7 http://bit.ly/1WKHjQ7 (I hope links using URL shorteners are not contra HN etiquette.) EDIT: Spelling.
ilaksh 10y ago
There's also a long history of governments using accusations of mental illness to suppress dissidents.
- Endy 10y ago
  Is it still paranoia when they really are following you?
  - nxzero 10y ago
    Likely, since even in a situation where they were the subject of a real campaign, inducing clinical degree of paranoia would very likely be an objective.
- drjesusphd 10y ago
  Like the NYPD. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft
DanBC 10y ago
> I think a good type of treatment for this would be body cameras and mikes which a therapist could review with a patient and provide them with rational explanations. That just means the therapist has been got to and is now One of Them.
theoh 10y ago
I don't agree. The pattern of paranoia about surveillance predates such organizations. See Tausk's famous essay: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Origin_of_the_%22Influencing_Machine%22_in_Schizophrenia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Origin_of_the_%22Infl... Significantly, it's often the doctors who are believed to be behind the surveillance. So I think your proposal is unlikely to work.
- nxzero 10y ago
  I would claim it's at least as old as spiritual beliefs; aka "The devil make made do it" - "Evil spirits are to blame" - etc.

jsprogrammer 10y ago

Yep, the only treatment that makes sense, isn't even discussed in this journalistic article (or, even by medical professionals). These claims seem like they would be pretty easy to verify with some recording equipment.

jMyles 10y ago
In my experience having friends go through this, the most verifiable, rational repudiations of delusions are still useless during an episode. However, they can be very reassuring after an episode has subsided.
- jsprogrammer 10y ago
  You know someone who has believed they were recording something that they were not? Were they watching the output of the recording, while still believing "it" was occurring?
  - serf 10y ago
    I have been in that position, the person when asked will usually just reinforce their position with a statement like "It was there, I swear it was.", fault their recording technique, or their equipment. Believing your mind is playing tricks on you is really the last ditch effort at rationalizing something for most people. They don't come to that conclusion easily without some sort of history or practice doing so.
  - axlprose 10y ago
    This video was linked in the article: https://youtu.be/b2hBDKtm-y0 https://youtu.be/b2hBDKtm-y0 The person recording clearly believes he's captured evidence of spys tracking him, yet the footage seems to show an ordinary trip to the subway with fellow pedestrians minding their own business. And there seem to be many other videos along those same lines.
    - jsprogrammer 10y ago
      I hadn't clicked that link before. The narrator doesn't make many substantive claims that can be tested. He mostly just says a particular person was there, which the video seems to show. I was thinking of some of the more testable claims made in the article. For instance, the person who claimed that their behavior was being mimicked.
      - jsprogrammer 10y ago
        Heh, downmods for this series?
nimblegorilla 10y ago
Why would anyone think it's a good idea to treat surveillance paranoia by having people strap cameras to their bodies?
- Retra 10y ago
  Probably for the same reason they think the CIA is 'hugely' responsible for mental illness.

sshykes 10y ago

Disclaimer: I am not a psychiatrist or medical professional. With that being said, I've known a fair number of varying degrees of paranoid people. I suspect this tactic would oftentimes just play into, indulge, and validate their paranoia.

AckSyn 10y ago
If they're really after you, is it really paranoia?
- ccrush 10y ago
  Yes. Otherwise, you wouldn't have noticed we're after you.
  - mistersquid 10y ago
    [As a disclaimer, the following is not an elaborate troll. When I was a practicing scholar of American Literature, psychoanalysis was one of my areas of specialization. What I write below is/was characteristic of psychoanalytic thought in the context of literary and cultural studies. Having left academia 7 years ago, I can see how some of my fellow HNers might be suspicious of such a seemingly convoluted and obtuse form of discourse.] Though you've been downvoted, the structure of your seemingly casual observation is validated by some of the most renown psychoanalytic and philosophical thinkers of the 20th and 21st centuries. (In the US, psychoanalysis is largely repudiated as a therapeutic pathway for severe mental illness such as paranoid schizophrenia. However, philosophy and psychoanalytic thinking can provide occasionally valuable insights into the nature of human psychology, each capable of being productive and provocative in equal measure.) In _Jacques Lacan's Four Discourses_ (Lacan has been referred to as the "French Freud"), Slavoj Zizek asks readers to > Recall, again, Lacan's outrageous statements that, even if what a jealous husband claims about his wife (that she sleeps around with other men) is all true, his jealousy is still pathological. [0] This is probably a misattribution by Zizek (or a conflation) since Sigmund Freud makes the comparison in the _Standard Edition_ (XVIII, 226). > Freud suggests that a jealous husband who is obsessed with the idea that his wife is cheating on him can be described as paranoid even if it turns out that his wife is cheating on him. [1] Without question, the priapic over-concern with the possibility of spousal infidelity is characteristic of masculinist psychoanalytic discourse. However, the kernel of truth in this is that one's internal representation is separate from reality, however closely the two may match. In other words, paranoia is pathological (belief in gang-stalking) even if it is matched by a dysfunctional reality (CIA surveillance) and this can be seen in the opposite case of a naive subject who neither suspects nor fears being surveilled despite being surveilled in reality (e.g. a psychologically healthy subject who is targeted by state surveillance). In short, paranoid fantasies may in fact be matched by reality, but that does not make the paranoid fantasies any less paranoid. Conversely, blissful ignorance may be contradicted by reality, but that does not necessarily make the subject any less blissful. (As a bonus, the paragraph from which the Zizek quote is drawn continues in its next sentence to explain how anti-Semitism draws upon psychopathological thinking to validate its ideological end. In other words, anti-Semitism for Zizek is structurally/phenomenologically identical to paranoia.) [0] http://www.lacan.com/zizfour.htm http://www.lacan.com/zizfour.htm [1] http://bit.ly/1WKHjQ7 http://bit.ly/1WKHjQ7 (I hope links using URL shorteners are not contra HN etiquette.) EDIT: Spelling.

ilaksh 10y ago

There's also a long history of governments using accusations of mental illness to suppress dissidents.

Endy 10y ago
Is it still paranoia when they really are following you?
- nxzero 10y ago
  Likely, since even in a situation where they were the subject of a real campaign, inducing clinical degree of paranoia would very likely be an objective.
drjesusphd 10y ago
Like the NYPD. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft

DanBC 10y ago

> I think a good type of treatment for this would be body cameras and mikes which a therapist could review with a patient and provide them with rational explanations. That just means the therapist has been got to and is now One of Them.

theoh 10y ago

I don't agree. The pattern of paranoia about surveillance predates such organizations. See Tausk's famous essay: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Origin_of_the_%22Influencing_Machine%22_in_Schizophrenia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Origin_of_the_%22Infl... Significantly, it's often the doctors who are believed to be behind the surveillance. So I think your proposal is unlikely to work.

nxzero 10y ago
I would claim it's at least as old as spiritual beliefs; aka "The devil make made do it" - "Evil spirits are to blame" - etc.