8 ms·
Blood of world’s oldest woman hints at limits of life
- 4bpp 10y agoBlood storage for autologous transfusion has apparently already been a thing for a while[1] and has been indicated to be effective in animal experiments[2], but as far as I can tell, no provider is willing to store it for more than about 20 years (and what is stored may not in fact contain stem cells, but rather only something that spurs the existing ones into activity). My general impression is that the medical community's moral gut reaction is unfavourable towards the idea. [1] http://www.bloodbook.com/storage.html http://www.bloodbook.com/storage.html [2] https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22329831-400-young-blood-to-be-used-in-ultimate-rejuvenation-trial/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22329831-400-young-bl...
- elsewhen 10y agoi believe that foreverlabs[0] is a startup that aims to do what you are suggesting [0] http://www.foreverlabs.co/ http://www.foreverlabs.co/
- 4bpp 10y agoLooks interesting. Unfortunately, I'm not sure my prior probability that a random startup would survive for sufficiently long to be of use to future me is sufficiently high to justify whatever cost their services would come at...
- cbhl 10y agoIt never hurts to send them an email and ask them what the price of their services is.
- codecamper 10y agoIf stem cells are finite & small in number. And you have some removed to be preserved for later life... Then maybe you will have problems due to having fewer stem cells?
- ilaksh 10y agoStem cells are a part of it, but there is much more to it. For a realistic, comprehensive, and much more informed approach to aging research, see http://www.sens.org http://www.sens.org.
- x2398dh1 10y agoThey aren't engaged in general, "aging," research actually, DeGray has stated he's interested in life-extension technology, to the extent that it might be possible. Their goal, as stated on the website you just linked to, is as follows: > Our goal is to help build the industry that will cure the diseases of aging. I'm not saying you're wrong...I just think there's some confusion online as to what they really are trying to do. They don't research aging in general, which would imply they are a University Body whose sole function is research for the purpose of research...they are specifically attempting to create a kind of science, which may or may not be valid, by funding certain types of research done by recognized research institutions, with the hope that evidence will support what they believe to be true...sort of like how the Koch brothers fund all sorts of research hoping to poke all sorts of holes and nuances into the accepted version of how climate change is understood. They may very well come up with something interesting, informed, and comprehensive...but that does not mean that they are being realistic. In research you don't get to choose whether your hypothesis is realistic or not...you just sort of go out into the woods and start picking things up and seeing whether what you think the laws of nature are...really are true...but you could be completely wrong and you might find nothing. You don't get to choose whether you catch a fish...you may come back to shore with zero fish after fishing for 50 years...or 100 years...or an infinite number of years.
- reasonattlm 10y agoSENS isn't new science. It is a synthesis of existing evidence for what causes aging and age-related disease, pulled in from many branches of medical research. The original contributions are the high level view of damage repair as the guiding basis for treatment, plus specific plans for how to address these causes. I don't think you can say it's wrong in wholesale at this point, given where things stand. The mainstream position in the aging research community is that aging is caused by an accumulation of damage. Senescent cell clearance has been on the SENS agenda since day one, with plenty of evidence to back it as a cause of aging from the past decades of research. Life extension has been demonstrated in mice through senescent cell clearance. There are two funded startups moving senescent cell clearance therapies to the clinic. You'll also find it hard to argue against the proposition that amyloid causes specific age-related conditions. E.g. amyloid beta in Alzheimer's disease, transthyretin amyloid in heart disease. These are very mainstream concerns. Similarly, there are few objections to the idea that declining stem cell function is a cause of aging, and plenty of evidence to show that restoring stem cell activity is beneficial. And so on.
- tr1ck5t3r 10y agoVitamin D derived from sunshine notably UVB reduces the shrinkage of the telomeres.
- voidlogic 10y agoI hope this is true :) Can you point me at a reference for this info?
- tr1ck5t3r 10y agoI cant edit my original post, so the rest is below. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7083323.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7083323.stm The sleep hormone melatonin increases the release of mesenchymal stem cells, and is also more effective as an antioxidant than say Vitamin C amongst other things. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24650016 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24650016 http://www.benbest.com/nutrceut/melatonin.html#aging http://www.benbest.com/nutrceut/melatonin.html#aging A book called A Million of Facts by Sir Richard Philips published around 1839 states on page 148 "Riley asserts that Arabs, in the desert liver for 200 years." Lots of UVB in the desert! The Welcome Trust in Aug 2010 stated there are 2,776 binding sites for the Vitamin D Receptor in the Human Genome, most of which are concentrated around the immune system genes. https://wellcome.ac.uk/press-release/vitamin-d-found-influence-over-200-genes-highlighting-links-disease https://wellcome.ac.uk/press-release/vitamin-d-found-influen... Yes genes can change in the body. Water Fasting is also the other major factor in long life as your lysosomal enzymes come into play. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysosome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysosome Some people have stated that military medical experiments on fasting carried out around the time of WW2 to learn how best to deal with starved prisoners of war, have shown moles on the skin have shriveled up and disappeared, and grey hair has also returned to its natural colour amongst other rejuvenating effects. A variety of studies have shown improvements in the body, ranging from increased spatial intelligence (ghrelin the hunger hormone) to better survival rates when undergoing various cancer treatment protocols. Loads can be found using google scholar, but heres just one recent example. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/fasting-for-three-days-can-regenerate-entire-immune-system-study/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/fasting-for-th... On the point of lysosomal enzymes, if fasting, once the body has digested the food in the digestive tract usually 3 days, around day 3-5 it goes into a ketogenic state, in fact a ketogenic diet is sometimes used in cancer treatments to increase the effectiveness of the protocol, although it certainly helps deal with the toxic side effects of some protocols. http://stm.sciencemag.org/node/186102.full http://stm.sciencemag.org/node/186102.full Interestingly some lysosomal enzymes are only activated after 10 days of fasting, today how many people fast for this length of time? I cant help but notice some parallels with Lent, in the distant past before modern medicine, Lent was about fasting, today its only about giving up something for a period of time. I also cant help but notice that when Jesus was crucified, he would have been effectively fasting on the cross whilst also being exposed to copious amounts of sunshine leading to an increase in Vit D, although the nitric oxide is the most notable short term effect as it takes Vit D about 14 days to become activated in the body afters its been processed by the kidney's and liver where all your fat soluble vitamins are stored. After Jesus was taken down from the cross, and banged up in a dark cave, melatonin would have increased effectively helping him to come back from the dead! Bear in mind modern medicine was around back then so whilst it can only be considered supposition, there are some circumstances which could have certainly brought him back from the dead, if he wasnt really in a deep coma. Numerous instances of people coming back from the dead even today occur which get classed as miracles and some mammals will fast if they dont feel well. Before anyone rushes off to try to fast, there are some precautions you should undertake. Namely never get cold, cold is a very effective killer when fasting. You also need to increase your Vit A intake, best source is eating liver, and whilst some might caution against taking too much Vit A, UV will destroy Vit A in the skin, and zinc binds the Vit A in the liver into something called Retinol Binding Proteins, which then moves to other parts of the body, improving things like the mucous membranes in the digestive system, lungs and elsewhere. In a way Vit A will improve the digestive system helping your body to absorb more of what it needs from the food you consume, so is a good place to start. Vit A primarily benefits the innate immune system which is what keeps you alive in your final years, Vit D benefits the adaptive immune system. I think its also interesting that animals whose habitats are closest to the poles have the highest levels of Vit A in their body, yet those living near the equator have the highest levels of Vit D. Its also worth pointing out that as more people no longer work the land but are indoors so much, one could argue that todays lifestyles are not always so good for us. Take this study. https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/blog/washing-away-vitamin-d/ https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/blog/washing-away-vitamin-d/ In the old days, its routine to just wash your pits, feet and groin and have a bath once a week. Today everyone showers. Its also worth pointing out that we can absorb ions through the skin, more so in those regions where we sweat the most, but we see examples of this from things like nicotine patches, mag oil (magnesium chloride mixed with water) as well as Epsom salt baths (magnesium sulphate) although the body will excrete sulphate faster than chlorides. Magnesium and zinc are very useful for Vit D, as there is a zinc finger on the Vit D Receptor. I could go on, I've read hundreds if not a few thousands of studies for over a decade now on this subject, but you have the most important info here. However like everything no one thing is a panacea, so even if you do get enough Vit D, if you dont have enough Mg or Zn as a couple examples, you are not neccesarily getting the full benefits. Coupled with todays more toxic polluted lifestyles millennials will not live as long as those born around the end of the 18th and 19th century which data today is now starting to suggest. Even Vitamin RDA's which came into existence around the 1950's are set so low as to only help prevent the worst of illness, eg Vit D RDA @ 400ui is generally enough to prevent rickets, Vit C just enough to prevent scurvy, iodine just enough to prevent goitre's as a few off the top of my head. I'm just a programmer not medically trained but I can read and apply logic and questions to studies I have read whilst I wait for the compiler to complete, but I dont suffer from Milgrams obedience to authority though, so I question everything. Check out Fasting by the Hygienists for more info on fasting, for a starting place or even find out about the Fasting Olympics which took place around the 1900's, the 1903 one took place in New York, and dont be tempted to overdose on some vitamins, as some chemicals classed as vitamins are toxic if consumer above the RDA levels, Nicotinamide (Vit B3) being one such when compared to the safer form Niacin, although getting your B vits from liver is best as digested slowly. Worth noting that most man made vitamins in pill form will behave in the same way as medicines/drugs as noted in this article. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/we-used-recycle-drugs-patients-urine-180953789 http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/we-used-recycle-dru... So there is some truth in what Dr's used to say when they said "you are what you eat".
- raverbashing 10y agoNow the real question is: when are the telomeres rebuilt? Because every individual started with one single cell, from a father and mother cells that also underwent cell division Hence at some point in time these telomeres get rebuilt/replenished.
- wpietri 10y ago"But the cell has an enzyme called telomerase, which carries out the task of adding repetitive nucleotide sequences to the ends of the DNA. Telomerase, thus, 'replenishes' the telomere 'cap' of the DNA. In most multicellular eukaryotic organisms, telomerase is active only in germ cells, some types of stem cells such as embryonic stem cells, and certain white blood cells." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere#Structure.2C_function_and_evolutionary_biology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere#Structure.2C_function...
- rflrob 10y agoIn addition to the healthy, normal repair of telomeres in germ cells, they're also replenished in cancer cells. While probably not a sufficient condition for cancer, it's almost a necessary one. So just over expressing telomerase everywhere in a blind fashion is likely to have some side effects in at least some people.
- reasonattlm 10y agoThere has been surprisingly little of cancer in mice with overexpression of telomerase. In fact mice with increased telomerase expression have less cancer, for reasons yet to be explored. Perhaps increased immune surveillance in old individuals, though that is pure speculation. Still, mice and humans have different telomere dynamics, and so it is wise - I think - to be wary of the cancer risk question. More testing of telomerase overexpression needs to be done in other mammals with more human-like telomere dynamics.
- raverbashing 10y agoInteresting So maybe the genes for reduction of telomerase have evolved because by (older individuals) dying the survival of newer individuals (who are offspring of those) is facilitated due to less competition for resources?
- 1dKFpcxn 10y agoDoes this mean that people who give blood are losing valuable stem cells and wont live as long?
- melling 10y agoThere are plenty of people over 100 who could be studied: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centenarian https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centenarian
- maxerickson 10y agoThere aren't really stem cells floating around in the blood. The donation would likely still impose some cost on the stem cells though (I doubt anybody has much of a handle on that cost). There is some evidence that frequent blood donors live longer than occasional donors. Being healthy is a selection criteria for blood donation, so it can be hard to study the impact. http://sciencenordic.com/frequent-blood-donors-live-longer http://sciencenordic.com/frequent-blood-donors-live-longer
- 1dKFpcxn 10y agoInteresting. I looks like there are Peripheral Blood Stem cells, as opposed to those in your bone marrow. http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/bloodjournal/98/10/2900.full.pdf?sso-checked=true http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/bloodjournal/98/10/2900....
- codecamper 10y agoWomen "give blood" monthly and tend to live longer.
- WalterSear 10y agoWomen who 'give blood' are also all the same biological gender. It's more than a small confound.
- sharpercoder 10y agoDoes this mean donating blood reduces your lifespan?
- tr1ck5t3r 10y agoThe opposite. Having a blood transfusion from someone younger than you will increase longevity. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/may/04/young-blood-reverse-ageing-mice-studies https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/may/04/young-blood-... So it pays to be a vampire!
- you_eeeeeediot 10y agoThat's not the opposite to the question asked.
- 1dKFpcxn 10y agoNot the opposite. As the receiver you gain, but as the donator you lose.
- kyriakos 10y agohow long before the rich start exploiting this?
- adevine 10y agoThanks for posting this, I thought it was fascinating research. This sentence in particular was a surprise to me: It’s estimated that we’re born with around 20,000 blood stem cells, and at any one time, around 1000 are simultaneously active to replenish blood. I was surprised the number was so low. Interesting to think this relatively small number of little factories has to sustain us throughout life.
- jrapdx3 10y agoThat is a low number, but not the only example of limited resources in our systems. Dopamine neurons in the brain are essential for normal functioning. Parkinson's develops when dopamine neurons die off with age or due to other injury (toxins, trauma, etc.). It takes only a 15% loss of these irreplaceable cells for the condition to begin to show up. In contrast to the cortex of the brain with its 100's of millions of neurons, we are born with only 250K dopamine cells which are never regenerated. That's a narrow margin to rely on, we skate on very thin ice throughout our lives. Nature is the staunchest conservative and doesn't throw away the things that work. Our bodies still retain the archaic mechanisms of the earliest multicellular organisms in our brains and bodies. Looks like blood forming tissues are similarly following Nature's way.
- btilly 10y agoGood evolution and good engineering principles are at odds. In engineering an idea that has been found to work in one place gets adapted in another. Also you often build reliability through adding layers of redundancy. Evolution has no straightforward way for good ideas to be identified and reapplied to another system. It has to evolve again. Also if you have two fully redundant systems, there is nothing to stop deleterious mutations from disrupting one of them. The end result is that one of the redundant systems will become unreliable, and then the other one gets maintained by selection pressure. (This is also why creatures that live in a cave eventually become blind, and parasites lose their ability to use now unnecessary body parts. There is no engineering reason why this would happen, but is a natural result of selection pressures being eliminated.)
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- ape4 10y agoSo luck is the key. If your mutations are good you live a long healthy life.
- thaumasiotes 10y agoWe knew that long before this study. It's true of everything, not just longevity.
- blackbagboys 10y agoIIRC there was a doctor posting in other threads about his bone-marrow stem cell banking startup. My understanding was that these stem cells were stored when young, and could be multiplied in a lab environment and then re-injected therapeutically (to cure MS or arthritis or whatever). Would these kind of banked stem cells (say, banked in one's early or late twenties) also potentially assist with life extension?
- codecamper 10y agoOr might you have problems because now you have fewer stem cells.
- guelo 10y agoYea I saw that thread and it left me wondering what problems there might be with the process for "expansion" of the extracted stem cells as he called it.
- reasonattlm 10y agoIt helps to think about the basics when talking about telomere length and cell behavior. 1) Telomeres shorten with each cell division in ordinary somatic cells. When they get too short, cells self-destruct or stop dividing. So average telomere length in tissue is a function of cell division rates. 2) Stem cells support their associated tissue type by providing new cells with long telomeres. Thus average telomere length is also a function of cell replacement rates. 3) Average telomere length is at present usually measured in white blood cells. The rates of division and replacement here are tied in to many factors, including general health, autoimmunity, infection, state of the thymus, and so on and so forth. It would probably be better to use another tissue, such as skin, but that isn't the way things worked out in practice. So telomere length is far removed from first causes in aging - it is largely a marker, largely of stem cell function in most tissues, but in immune cells with their varying rates of division according to circumstances, also a marker of all sorts of other unrelated or partly related things. If telomere length is globally extended, you have cells that can divide more often without the need for stem cell support, and you also have more energetic stem cells. But those cells dividing more often are more damaged on average. This may or may not be important enough to do bad things such as raise cancer risk significantly in our species: more data needed.
- zeristor 10y agoHmmm. From an engineering perspective what are the MTBFs for the various human components; are a dearth of White blood cells a prime reason for aging and death? Great progress has been made in genetics surely one could read the DNA of a few thousand cells and have an extremely strong confidence of what the unmutated DNA for a person once was. And from this you could make new white blood cells et voila. This all seems rather Blade Runnery. Mind you there would be societal problems with people who can live much older: slowing of cultural evolution, career blocking, and monopolising property; we've got that now but it would get worse. I'm worried about the Brexiters kicking out the metric system;that and fascist tyranny.
- reasonattlm 10y agoFrom an engineering point of view, there has been some work on the application of reliability theory to aging, though not to the point where your question can be answered using this approach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_theory_of_aging_and_longevity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_theory_of_aging_an... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20469937 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20469937 Immune system aging is an important component of age-related frailty, and probably also accounts for the rising number of senescent cells and higher cancer risk. It isn't as simple as a dearth of cells, however. It is more of a complex configuration/whole-system failure in which rate of cell replacement is just one variable contributing to the bad state endpoint. See for example: https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2006/12/when-and-how-does-the-decay-of-your-immune-system/ https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2006/12/when-and-how-doe... https://longevityandhealthspan.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2046-2395-2-8 https://longevityandhealthspan.biomedcentral.com/articles/10...
- ilaksh 10y agoFrom an engineering point of view, this article is an oversimplification. Check out http://www.sens.org http://www.sens.org for a more comprehensive and sophisticated approach.
- zeristor 10y agoFascinating. So there are a finite number of T cells, and nearly all of them are used up fighting Cytomegalovirus?