4 ms·

Symptom of a bigger problem: nobody in the criminal justice system is punished for making the wrong move. There is no law enforcement downside to civil asset fo

Symptom of a bigger problem: nobody in the criminal justice system is punished for making the wrong move. There is no law enforcement downside to civil asset forfeiture. Officer-involved shootings are discouraged from prosecution or otherwise involve highly-paid "expert" witnesses saying the officer had no other choice - at taxpayer expense. Prosecutors are valued by the number of wins, not by how many innocent people are spared the gauntlet of the American justice system. Prisons (especially private prisons) are rewarded for high recidivism rates, instead of being punished for wasting taxpayer money on an expensive and brutal daycare. If the state does badly enough it can get sued. So the taxpayers foot the bill while the offenders are free to do as they do. I've said it before and I'll say it again: prevent this kind of garbage from happing without consequence by mandating docked wages/pension benefits to pay for all or part of lawsuit damages. Change the incentives and people will change themselves.

nxzero 10y ago
Are you aware of even one example of a laws that are actively enforced that would have the same time of what you're suggesting? Seems like all that would happen is new channels of revenue would be found that didn't have the blowback you're suggesting.
adventured 10y ago
> Symptom of a bigger problem: nobody in the criminal justice system is punished for making the wrong move Step 1) End all police unions. There desperately needs to be a federal law prohibiting the formation of any police union anywhere in the United States. (we'll add this to the list of things that will never happen)
- Animats 10y ago
  Soldiers aren't allowed to unionize. Some tried it during the Vietnam war. It didn't work.
tajen 10y ago
Bonus question: In countries that are still exempt from highway police robbery such as in Europe, what can we do to avoid gliding towards it? Isn't HPR a natural evolution of the increased number of police agents after massive terrorist attacks, like the two we've just had in France?
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  Simple: pay for things you need. Over the last few decades the American people have been conned into this idea that government is fundamentally too big and needs to be shrunk because of reasons. People save a few measly percentage points on taxes that help pay for the axle damage on their car after being driven over roads that are no longer repaired. Municipalities had to find ways to recoup costs from slashed state and federal budgets, which is why there is such a big problem in poor, mostly black American cities, as people are pulled over and fined up the ass for every possible infraction just so the city can afford itself. This kind of crap has nothing to do with terrorism and everything to do with fiscal irresponsibility.
  - eloisius 10y ago
    So police departments are largely participating in highway robbery because it's the only way they can get by? They're not spending it on margarita machines [1] or trips to Hawaii? [1]: http://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2014/06/05/cops-in-texas-seize-millions-by-policing-for-profit/#46eeb9c43aa8 http://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2014/06/05/c...
    - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
      More like the municipalities in general. That's why in many parts of rural America you'll find a cop at every other speed limit change, waiting for someone to notice the sign too late, catching people who don't necessary live in the area but unwillingly contribute to the local economy.
  - refurb 10y ago
    Municipalities had to find ways to recoup costs from slashed state and federal budgets When was the last time you saw any gov't budget go down? I'd say never. The gov't has more than enough money. The problem is where and how they spend it.
aggie 10y ago
One problem with that is government work, especially day-to-day law enforcement, already has a challenge in recruiting good, talented workers. The pay is generally lower than private industry and there's not much prestige to be had. Adding personal liability to the mix makes this situation even worse. Not to say there can't be reasonable steps to move the needle toward accountability. Lowering the bar for perjury charges would be a good first step.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  Well you say you get what you pay for. I live in a high-tax, highly liberal college town. Our community has a great relationship with the police - it's the campus safety pricks you have to watch out for - and the department is well-funded. It should be no coincidence that literal highway robbery is being sanctioned in a state as allergic to good government and logical tax rates as Oklahoma. You have a good point about personal liability and quality of service, and that's why any proposal of mine should should have very limited conditions, like unlawful civil asset forfeiture.
jMyles 10y ago
> I've said it before and I'll say it again: prevent this kind of garbage from happing without consequence by mandating docked wages/pension benefits to pay for all or part of lawsuit damages. Change the incentives and people will change themselves. I'm less certain. It seems to me that this will only push the incentive further up the chain, such that the system refuses to ever find wrongdoing or even allow lawsuits to go forward. A simpler and more elegant solution is to simply remove "criminal justice" as being part of the responsibility of the state. In my estimation, this will come at no cost whatsoever to safety, while also increasing quality of life for most people.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  Yeah ancient Rome did this and they still can't get rid of the Camorra (mafia)
  - jMyles 10y ago
    Yeah, I don't think that this solution has been viable at any point until now, but the proliferation of cameras and ease of transmission of video might be a game-changer.

nxzero 10y ago

Are you aware of even one example of a laws that are actively enforced that would have the same time of what you're suggesting? Seems like all that would happen is new channels of revenue would be found that didn't have the blowback you're suggesting.

adventured 10y ago

> Symptom of a bigger problem: nobody in the criminal justice system is punished for making the wrong move Step 1) End all police unions. There desperately needs to be a federal law prohibiting the formation of any police union anywhere in the United States. (we'll add this to the list of things that will never happen)

Animats 10y ago
Soldiers aren't allowed to unionize. Some tried it during the Vietnam war. It didn't work.

tajen 10y ago

Bonus question: In countries that are still exempt from highway police robbery such as in Europe, what can we do to avoid gliding towards it? Isn't HPR a natural evolution of the increased number of police agents after massive terrorist attacks, like the two we've just had in France?

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
Simple: pay for things you need. Over the last few decades the American people have been conned into this idea that government is fundamentally too big and needs to be shrunk because of reasons. People save a few measly percentage points on taxes that help pay for the axle damage on their car after being driven over roads that are no longer repaired. Municipalities had to find ways to recoup costs from slashed state and federal budgets, which is why there is such a big problem in poor, mostly black American cities, as people are pulled over and fined up the ass for every possible infraction just so the city can afford itself. This kind of crap has nothing to do with terrorism and everything to do with fiscal irresponsibility.
- eloisius 10y ago
  So police departments are largely participating in highway robbery because it's the only way they can get by? They're not spending it on margarita machines [1] or trips to Hawaii? [1]: http://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2014/06/05/cops-in-texas-seize-millions-by-policing-for-profit/#46eeb9c43aa8 http://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2014/06/05/c...
  - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
    More like the municipalities in general. That's why in many parts of rural America you'll find a cop at every other speed limit change, waiting for someone to notice the sign too late, catching people who don't necessary live in the area but unwillingly contribute to the local economy.
- refurb 10y ago
  Municipalities had to find ways to recoup costs from slashed state and federal budgets When was the last time you saw any gov't budget go down? I'd say never. The gov't has more than enough money. The problem is where and how they spend it.

aggie 10y ago

One problem with that is government work, especially day-to-day law enforcement, already has a challenge in recruiting good, talented workers. The pay is generally lower than private industry and there's not much prestige to be had. Adding personal liability to the mix makes this situation even worse. Not to say there can't be reasonable steps to move the needle toward accountability. Lowering the bar for perjury charges would be a good first step.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
Well you say you get what you pay for. I live in a high-tax, highly liberal college town. Our community has a great relationship with the police - it's the campus safety pricks you have to watch out for - and the department is well-funded. It should be no coincidence that literal highway robbery is being sanctioned in a state as allergic to good government and logical tax rates as Oklahoma. You have a good point about personal liability and quality of service, and that's why any proposal of mine should should have very limited conditions, like unlawful civil asset forfeiture.

jMyles 10y ago

> I've said it before and I'll say it again: prevent this kind of garbage from happing without consequence by mandating docked wages/pension benefits to pay for all or part of lawsuit damages. Change the incentives and people will change themselves. I'm less certain. It seems to me that this will only push the incentive further up the chain, such that the system refuses to ever find wrongdoing or even allow lawsuits to go forward. A simpler and more elegant solution is to simply remove "criminal justice" as being part of the responsibility of the state. In my estimation, this will come at no cost whatsoever to safety, while also increasing quality of life for most people.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
Yeah ancient Rome did this and they still can't get rid of the Camorra (mafia)
- jMyles 10y ago
  Yeah, I don't think that this solution has been viable at any point until now, but the proliferation of cameras and ease of transmission of video might be a game-changer.