5 ms·

There's no way that the trickle of revenue is greater than the cost of enforcement. Officer salary and benefits, equipment maintenance, and all the costs associ

by morninj 10y ago

There's no way that the trickle of revenue is greater than the cost of enforcement. Officer salary and benefits, equipment maintenance, and all the costs associated with the court system...

EGreg 10y ago
How do you know there's no way? At the very least, it might be paying for itself....
aggie 10y ago
The marginal cost of those items, for the police anyway, might be close to 0.
superuser2 10y ago
Suburban PDs tend to be vastly overstaffed for the level of serious crime and bored most of the time. Mine spends the majority of its hours on mall shoplifters and dogs at the park.
mikeash 10y ago
The use of traffic tickets as supplemental revenue is a time-honored tradition with many real-world examples. Some places fund their entire police department this way. I don't know why you'd think it couldn't be greater than the cost, either. It takes, what, five minutes to write a ticket, which might average $100? That's $1,200/hour of revenue. No way the officer costs that much, even including benefits and equipment. Most people just pay tickets, they don't contest them, so court costs will be small.
- HillaryBriss 10y ago
  In LA, for example, most of the driving infractions are violations of the California vehicle code, not city-specific vehicle codes. And so it turns out that a very substantial portion of ticket revenues go to the state, not the city. California even has a law preventing cities from creating these kinds of local vehicle code laws that could generate local revenue.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    I imagine that jurisdictions which place a heavy emphasis on revenue from traffic enforcement are also careful to place a heavy emphasis on infractions which provide revenue to the local government.
  - woah 10y ago
    It sounds like the law we are talking about here is very local.
  - xraystyle 10y ago
    In Los Angeles the policy is just to parking-ticket the hell out of drivers at every opportunity. The 'unofficial' policy of parking enforcement here is to ticket everything you see, regardless of whether or not the car is actually in violation of something. They know it's far cheaper for drivers to just pay the fines than it is to fight the tickets. Arguing a parking ticket can literally take several entire days. Forget just contesting them in writing, the written appeals are automatically denied every single time. I don't even think anyone reads them, there's probably just some flunky at a desk who opens them and immediately sends them back with a pre-printed denial letter.
    - HillaryBriss 10y ago
      Yes. And since those actually are city infractions, LA truly does rake in the cash on parking tickets.
    - bpchaps 10y ago
      Somebody should really fight the LA ticket system in bulk. It's what I'm doing in Chicago, and it's actually not as much money as you'd think it is. Don't get me wrong, it's still a lot and is about as predatory as it gets, but it's not in the billions, compared to many other things. Of the parsable ones I have, the total since 2009 up until March of this year, there's been a total of $764,775,070 marked as "paid". Tickets marked with a bankruptcy flag has added up to 18,433,390.0. Wanted to finish up some code to get better output, but I have to run.
    - kmonsen 10y ago
- mseebach 10y ago
  To get to 12 tickets an hour, you need at least 12 offenders an hour which is probably the bottleneck the GP alluded to. That said, 5 minutes per ticket pretty much requires offenders to present themselves in a nice, orderly line. A more normal scenario where the officer has to cruise around, pull someone over, get out, talk to the person ("no no, I'm not passing through, my sick uncle lives over there"), write the ticket and get back in the patrol car, I'd guess closer to 15 minutes as a lower bound. Also, doesn't Waze have a feature where you can warn other driver against this kind of thing? That would further reduce the ticket-rate.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    $400/hour would still be plenty. Usually they go after speeders, which are really easy to catch, because everybody speeds. It's often an unwritten rule that you don't get ticketed unless you're going 10+ over the limit, but revenue-hungry jurisdictions don't need to honor that. I'm sure Waze cuts down on this, but they can hit a trouble/lucrative spot for a day or three, then move on.
  - zo1 10y ago
    Even with 15 minute per ticket, that's ~$400/hr. Assuming he spends two hours there, and gets an average of 8 tickets per day, that still accounts for almost $200,000 per year. That's a ridiculous amount. Of course, doesn't take into account individuals learning and adjusting their behaviour accordingly, instead of being repeat offenders on the same street.
  - GVIrish 10y ago
    > That said, 5 minutes per ticket pretty much requires offenders to present themselves in a nice, orderly line. Officers get exactly that when they set up shop in a place where they know there are going to be plenty of violators. Highway 66 inside of the DC beltway is HOV during rush hour. The police will just sit at the end of the on ramp and write tickets for everyone trying to cheat HOV or with expired tags or inspection. Makes for a great haul, especially because HOV tickets are $125 for the first offense, $250 for the second, $500 for the third, and $1000 for the fourth.
rlucas 10y ago
Don't think of it as a new standalone line of business; think of it as an "upsell" that your reps can incrementally sell, since you need them there to sell the occasional big ticket items.
joesmo 10y ago
Actually there is one way: civil asset forfeiture. Then it also pays for things your PD absolutely needs to do its job like margarita machines, etc.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Most states don't allow local PDs to keep forfeiture proceeds from state-law forfeitures; the federal government allowed local jurisdictions involved in federal-law forfeitures to keep a large portion (80%) of the assets, but the standards for that program were made more restrictive a few years back, and it was suspended entirely last December (notionally, at least, as a cost saving measure), so right now there's really no way for a local PD to raise funds by way of forfeiture.
beachstartup 10y ago
the ticket revenue is greater than the marginal cost of enforcement. the cops are already out there. they just need to give them more reasons to write tickets. economies of scale!
taco_emoji 10y ago
Many tickets are generated through automated camera systems.
baddox 10y ago
Officers are paid by tax revenue, as far as I know. Any revenue they generate through tickets is still extra revenue.
imgabe 10y ago
Those costs are going to be paid regardless of whether they write tickets for that or not. If a police officer is sitting around on an otherwise slow day, they might as well go write some tickets.

by morninj 10y ago

There's no way that the trickle of revenue is greater than the cost of enforcement. Officer salary and benefits, equipment maintenance, and all the costs associated with the court system...

EGreg 10y ago

How do you know there's no way? At the very least, it might be paying for itself....

aggie 10y ago

The marginal cost of those items, for the police anyway, might be close to 0.

superuser2 10y ago

Suburban PDs tend to be vastly overstaffed for the level of serious crime and bored most of the time. Mine spends the majority of its hours on mall shoplifters and dogs at the park.

mikeash 10y ago

The use of traffic tickets as supplemental revenue is a time-honored tradition with many real-world examples. Some places fund their entire police department this way. I don't know why you'd think it couldn't be greater than the cost, either. It takes, what, five minutes to write a ticket, which might average $100? That's $1,200/hour of revenue. No way the officer costs that much, even including benefits and equipment. Most people just pay tickets, they don't contest them, so court costs will be small.

HillaryBriss 10y ago
In LA, for example, most of the driving infractions are violations of the California vehicle code, not city-specific vehicle codes. And so it turns out that a very substantial portion of ticket revenues go to the state, not the city. California even has a law preventing cities from creating these kinds of local vehicle code laws that could generate local revenue.
- mikeash 10y ago
  I imagine that jurisdictions which place a heavy emphasis on revenue from traffic enforcement are also careful to place a heavy emphasis on infractions which provide revenue to the local government.
- woah 10y ago
  It sounds like the law we are talking about here is very local.
- xraystyle 10y ago
  In Los Angeles the policy is just to parking-ticket the hell out of drivers at every opportunity. The 'unofficial' policy of parking enforcement here is to ticket everything you see, regardless of whether or not the car is actually in violation of something. They know it's far cheaper for drivers to just pay the fines than it is to fight the tickets. Arguing a parking ticket can literally take several entire days. Forget just contesting them in writing, the written appeals are automatically denied every single time. I don't even think anyone reads them, there's probably just some flunky at a desk who opens them and immediately sends them back with a pre-printed denial letter.
  - HillaryBriss 10y ago
    Yes. And since those actually are city infractions, LA truly does rake in the cash on parking tickets.
  - bpchaps 10y ago
    Somebody should really fight the LA ticket system in bulk. It's what I'm doing in Chicago, and it's actually not as much money as you'd think it is. Don't get me wrong, it's still a lot and is about as predatory as it gets, but it's not in the billions, compared to many other things. Of the parsable ones I have, the total since 2009 up until March of this year, there's been a total of $764,775,070 marked as "paid". Tickets marked with a bankruptcy flag has added up to 18,433,390.0. Wanted to finish up some code to get better output, but I have to run.
  - kmonsen 10y ago
mseebach 10y ago
To get to 12 tickets an hour, you need at least 12 offenders an hour which is probably the bottleneck the GP alluded to. That said, 5 minutes per ticket pretty much requires offenders to present themselves in a nice, orderly line. A more normal scenario where the officer has to cruise around, pull someone over, get out, talk to the person ("no no, I'm not passing through, my sick uncle lives over there"), write the ticket and get back in the patrol car, I'd guess closer to 15 minutes as a lower bound. Also, doesn't Waze have a feature where you can warn other driver against this kind of thing? That would further reduce the ticket-rate.
- mikeash 10y ago
  $400/hour would still be plenty. Usually they go after speeders, which are really easy to catch, because everybody speeds. It's often an unwritten rule that you don't get ticketed unless you're going 10+ over the limit, but revenue-hungry jurisdictions don't need to honor that. I'm sure Waze cuts down on this, but they can hit a trouble/lucrative spot for a day or three, then move on.
- zo1 10y ago
  Even with 15 minute per ticket, that's ~$400/hr. Assuming he spends two hours there, and gets an average of 8 tickets per day, that still accounts for almost $200,000 per year. That's a ridiculous amount. Of course, doesn't take into account individuals learning and adjusting their behaviour accordingly, instead of being repeat offenders on the same street.
- GVIrish 10y ago
  > That said, 5 minutes per ticket pretty much requires offenders to present themselves in a nice, orderly line. Officers get exactly that when they set up shop in a place where they know there are going to be plenty of violators. Highway 66 inside of the DC beltway is HOV during rush hour. The police will just sit at the end of the on ramp and write tickets for everyone trying to cheat HOV or with expired tags or inspection. Makes for a great haul, especially because HOV tickets are $125 for the first offense, $250 for the second, $500 for the third, and $1000 for the fourth.

rlucas 10y ago

Don't think of it as a new standalone line of business; think of it as an "upsell" that your reps can incrementally sell, since you need them there to sell the occasional big ticket items.

joesmo 10y ago

Actually there is one way: civil asset forfeiture. Then it also pays for things your PD absolutely needs to do its job like margarita machines, etc.

dragonwriter 10y ago
Most states don't allow local PDs to keep forfeiture proceeds from state-law forfeitures; the federal government allowed local jurisdictions involved in federal-law forfeitures to keep a large portion (80%) of the assets, but the standards for that program were made more restrictive a few years back, and it was suspended entirely last December (notionally, at least, as a cost saving measure), so right now there's really no way for a local PD to raise funds by way of forfeiture.

beachstartup 10y ago

the ticket revenue is greater than the marginal cost of enforcement. the cops are already out there. they just need to give them more reasons to write tickets. economies of scale!

taco_emoji 10y ago

Many tickets are generated through automated camera systems.

baddox 10y ago

Officers are paid by tax revenue, as far as I know. Any revenue they generate through tickets is still extra revenue.

imgabe 10y ago

Those costs are going to be paid regardless of whether they write tickets for that or not. If a police officer is sitting around on an otherwise slow day, they might as well go write some tickets.