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I rarely comment but this story makes me happy enough to do so. I'm a former H1-B with an American Masters degree in STEM. I think this conviction will go a lon

by qxf2 10y ago

I rarely comment but this story makes me happy enough to do so. I'm a former H1-B with an American Masters degree in STEM. I think this conviction will go a long way in making the system fairer. Here is what happened. H1-Bs must be legally employed all (well most of) the time they are in the USA. To get past that rule, these H1-B shops act as employers and then farm out the employees to other companies. Employers need to pay H1-Bs at least the prevailing wage that is mentioned in their H1-B application. This employer did not. Instead, they reduced wages when the employees were on the bench. That is the violation that they have been convicted for. So this conviction is not that much about H1-B's replacing American workers as much as it is about an unethical employer paying his employees less than the promised wage. Usually, people who join this kind of shop are people who have not been able to land a direct employer on their own and desperately want to stay in the USA. This judgment will go a long way in correcting the system because now all shops (and there are many!) that run this scam will close down. That, in turn, will decrease the number of people who end up applying for H1-Bs without a real employer. Hopefully, that will improve the perception around genuine H1-B VISA holders.

verst 10y ago
Exactly! Thanks for this insightful comment.
chrisper 10y ago
Also many of these consultancy firms just flood the H1B application pool and then just take whoever got accepted. Very unfair.
- vostok 10y ago
  This is why I strongly believe that H1Bs should be given out to employees that are offered the highest salary. Clearly there is no shortage if you are not willing to pay one of the highest salaries. Yea, this wouldn't be perfect, but it's much better than the significantly more gameable lottery system we have now.
  - hkmurakami 10y ago
    In addition, I hope that we can somehow figure out a way to give visas to STEM graduate degree earners over ones employed by such shops. That segment seems significantly underserved by the current system and it's resulting in a reverse brain drain away from the country even though we are investing in their education.
    - vostok 10y ago
      I'm not sure that it makes sense to target STEM graduates in this way. Most of them would receive visas based on their high salaries whereas an explicit rule would only serve to increase the number of low quality STEM degrees.
      - hkmurakami 10y ago
        Yeah that did cross my mind, and now that it's been brought up, I'm inclined to think you are right. I just learned that a bunch of acquaintances lost out on their H1B lotteries and will be shipped out of the country to international offices once their OPT terms end in 1-2 months. Since they were employed by strong companies, their salaries likely would have been high enough to qualify them for H1B visas under a system you propose.
        jacalata 10y ago
        Actually I wonder if entry level employees would be crowded out completely in an auction system - wouldn't it end up being all senior engineers?
    - morgante 10y ago
      I don't like the idea of further endorsing and supporting credentialism. If you can get a high salary, then you're in demand and we should keep you. If you have a STEM degree but can't even get a good job, then I don't see any reason to grant a visa.
  - IndianAstronaut 10y ago
_audakel 10y ago
I think it is yet another point showing how broken our immigration / vIsa program is. This sort of blackmarket style operation would never have existed in the first place if the talanted non US (calling them aliens seems dehumanizing and encourages the us vs them mentality) workers could easily and affordably get permission to work here
- pkaye 10y ago
  This sort of problem could also be resolved by adding whistle blower protection to H1B employees against their employers.
  - praneshp 10y ago
    You speak as if those employees are poor folks being exploited. They are "in" on the con, they know exactly what they are getting into.
    - pkaye 10y ago
      We don't know. There those who in it and there are some who are brought in on different terms and then the rules changed on them. Anyway this will make it easier to enforce because both sides can prove their point by showing bank records of payment. By give the employee sufficient leverage and the employer criminal penalties, it puts the employer on guard to do things correctly and legally.
steego 10y ago
A much better solution would to remove any barriers an H1B worker has to shop for a better job. If we want to live an egalitarian society, it's in our collective interest for immigrants to earn as much as the rest of us. That only happens when we dismantle systems that provide an incentive to exploit immigrants.
- sliverstorm 10y ago
  That's no longer an H1-B, that's a totally different program with different goals.
  - vthallam 10y ago
    Guess what the user meant is to make it easy for people on H1B to switch jobs which currently isn't. This makes so many employees to be at the jobs though low paying so as to keep their status in US. Edit: for grammar!
    - bruceb 10y ago
      You can switch jobs on an H1-b visa. The window is too short yes but plenty of people with skills do it in SV.
      - HarryHirsch 10y ago
        You can, but it isn't for people with weak stomachs or dependents. Who thinks that that is intentional believes in conspiracies.
        steego 10y ago
        You realize that a person doesn't have to belong to the Illuminati as a precondition to lobby for special or opaque legislation, right? The only precondition intent needs is a conflict of interest. Look at Intuit. A number of years back, California piloted a program that simplified filing tax returns for people opting to take the standard deduction. They would mail you a form that was prefilled so you could simply sign it and mail it back. Intuit lobbied to kill it and won. No laws were broken. They were simply acting in the interest of their shareholders. The American Immigration Lawyers Association is one of many lobbying groups that represents 13,000 members. Many of these members help the 80,000 some H1B applicants through the process and can charge legal fees in the ballpark of $10,000 to do that. Assuming all 80,000 applicants spent $10,000 in legal fees, we're talking about ~$1bn market on top for that type of work alone. In the grand scheme of things, it's not a lot, but it's one component that can create a conflict of interest. Let's assume the AILA is an upstanding group and all of the lobbyists they hire are ethical boy scouts. They would never influence our legislators to intentionally complicate laws to serve their members. Instead, they would recognize that it's in our nation's best interest that our immigration systems are robust, thorough and comprehensive. They'd also emphasize that their members provide a critical service to sherpa honest immigrants through this thoroughly comprehensive system. You don't need to be behind a ridiculous conspiracy to influence legislation to serve your best interests. These days, you're way better off being transparent and operating under an ethical framework.
sliverstorm 10y ago
So this conviction is not that much about H1-B's replacing American workers as much as it is about an unethical employer paying his employees less than the promised wage. Though, the two are deeply entwined. If you prevent this kind of exploitation, using H1-B's as a source of cheap labor (and thus cheap American worker replacements) becomes less feasible.
parennoob 10y ago
> Hopefully, that will improve the perception around genuine H1-B VISA holders. This. As a fairly paid H1B (I have discussed salary openly with my American coworkers), I always cringe when stories like the Disney one come up, because I feel like the next day a couple of them are going to be saying, "Ugh, there's the H1B that's taking our jobs away". For this reason, I hope all the fraudulent H1B companies are pushed out of business with strict penalties. Also I really wish there were some sane laws around H1B (sorting priority by salary relative to prevailing wage, untying employers from the visa, etc.)
siculars 10y ago
Every STEM grad from a US program should get a greencard/visa stapled to their diploma. Why isn't that happening?
- dmm 10y ago
  I like the concept but I can see a few potential problems with the idea. Firstly this would give universities the power to print green cards. That's a power they probably shouldn't have. Secondly I really don't think there is a shortage of scientists or mathematicians so STEM is probably a suboptimal group to apply this policy. I personally know a person with a masters in geophysics who drives for lyft. Ask a recent biology major about their job prospects, etc.
  - dzhiurgis 10y ago
    I work for this such type of consulting shop abroad (first world), supposedly best in the country and earn same as average Uber driver. I think the model is not limited to the US. There are plenty of people willing to have abroad experience, but it does demotivate you to certain degree. I can imagine market geophysics specialists is extremely tiny.
- bduerst 10y ago
  They need to be paid more than the prevailing wage for citizens working the same job in the area they are working.
mh_yam 10y ago
I am in the same boat (bachelors + masters from US universities and on H-1B). I've been in the US for almost 10 years now since undergrad and have put down roots (friends, acquaintances, credit history, etc). It is very unfair for us to be put into the same bucket as body shop labor from India. I personally know several people who were forced to leave the US because they didn't get chosen in the H-1B lottery. There needs to be a new visa that caters specifically to those in our situation. USCIS needs to let the consultancy companies and body shops compete among themselves for H-1B and stop screwing law-abiding international students who have devoted 4-6 (or more) years of their lives to living in the US, who suddenly might lose everything they've worked for because of the H-1B lottery.
- surfmike 10y ago
  One thing that helps at least is that the H1B lottery cap doesn't apply to students who got a graduate degree in the US. ie there are unlimited H1B visas for people in that boat.
  - chime 10y ago
    Is that already a law?
  - ninja_to_be 10y ago
    It is not unlimited, but there is a separate lottery for 20,000 visas for advanced degree holders.
    - khare_ashwini 10y ago
      ...and the unselected ones from this lot get one more chance in the general pool of 65000
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- vitd 10y ago
  Serious question - I don't in any way intend this to sound inflammatory. If you've been here almost 10 years and have set down roots, why haven't you just applied to be a citizen? It sounds like you want to stay, and frankly, it sounds like it would be good for us to have you. Is there something holding you back beyond just personal preference? (Or are you already in the process but haven't completed it?)
mh_yam 10y ago
I am in the same boat (bachelors + masters from US universities and on H-1B). I've been in the US for almost 10 years now since undergrad and have put down roots (friends, acquaintances, credit history, etc). It is very unfair for us to be put into the same bucket as body shop labor from India. I personally know several people who were forced to leave the US because they didn't get chosen in the H-1B lottery. There needs to be a new visa that caters specifically to those in our situation. USCIS needs to let the consultancy companies and body shops compete among themselves for H-1B and stop screwing law-abiding international students who have devoted 4-6 (or more) years of their lives to living in the US, who suddenly might lose everything they've worked for because of the H-1B lottery.
bduerst 10y ago
Thank you for clarifying. I think one of the biggest problems with immigration in the U.S. is that citizens aren't that knowledgeable in the H1B approval process, and tend to attribute these abusers to all H1B sponsors.
WalterBright 10y ago
7 years is a very harsh sentence for a non-violent crime.

by qxf2 10y ago

verst 10y ago

Exactly! Thanks for this insightful comment.

chrisper 10y ago

Also many of these consultancy firms just flood the H1B application pool and then just take whoever got accepted. Very unfair.

vostok 10y ago
This is why I strongly believe that H1Bs should be given out to employees that are offered the highest salary. Clearly there is no shortage if you are not willing to pay one of the highest salaries. Yea, this wouldn't be perfect, but it's much better than the significantly more gameable lottery system we have now.
- hkmurakami 10y ago
  In addition, I hope that we can somehow figure out a way to give visas to STEM graduate degree earners over ones employed by such shops. That segment seems significantly underserved by the current system and it's resulting in a reverse brain drain away from the country even though we are investing in their education.
  - vostok 10y ago
    I'm not sure that it makes sense to target STEM graduates in this way. Most of them would receive visas based on their high salaries whereas an explicit rule would only serve to increase the number of low quality STEM degrees.
    - hkmurakami 10y ago
      Yeah that did cross my mind, and now that it's been brought up, I'm inclined to think you are right. I just learned that a bunch of acquaintances lost out on their H1B lotteries and will be shipped out of the country to international offices once their OPT terms end in 1-2 months. Since they were employed by strong companies, their salaries likely would have been high enough to qualify them for H1B visas under a system you propose.
      - jacalata 10y ago
        Actually I wonder if entry level employees would be crowded out completely in an auction system - wouldn't it end up being all senior engineers?
  - morgante 10y ago
    I don't like the idea of further endorsing and supporting credentialism. If you can get a high salary, then you're in demand and we should keep you. If you have a STEM degree but can't even get a good job, then I don't see any reason to grant a visa.
- IndianAstronaut 10y ago

_audakel 10y ago

I think it is yet another point showing how broken our immigration / vIsa program is. This sort of blackmarket style operation would never have existed in the first place if the talanted non US (calling them aliens seems dehumanizing and encourages the us vs them mentality) workers could easily and affordably get permission to work here

pkaye 10y ago
This sort of problem could also be resolved by adding whistle blower protection to H1B employees against their employers.
- praneshp 10y ago
  You speak as if those employees are poor folks being exploited. They are "in" on the con, they know exactly what they are getting into.
  - pkaye 10y ago
    We don't know. There those who in it and there are some who are brought in on different terms and then the rules changed on them. Anyway this will make it easier to enforce because both sides can prove their point by showing bank records of payment. By give the employee sufficient leverage and the employer criminal penalties, it puts the employer on guard to do things correctly and legally.

steego 10y ago

A much better solution would to remove any barriers an H1B worker has to shop for a better job. If we want to live an egalitarian society, it's in our collective interest for immigrants to earn as much as the rest of us. That only happens when we dismantle systems that provide an incentive to exploit immigrants.

sliverstorm 10y ago
That's no longer an H1-B, that's a totally different program with different goals.
- vthallam 10y ago
  Guess what the user meant is to make it easy for people on H1B to switch jobs which currently isn't. This makes so many employees to be at the jobs though low paying so as to keep their status in US. Edit: for grammar!
  - bruceb 10y ago
    You can switch jobs on an H1-b visa. The window is too short yes but plenty of people with skills do it in SV.
    - HarryHirsch 10y ago
      You can, but it isn't for people with weak stomachs or dependents. Who thinks that that is intentional believes in conspiracies.
      - steego 10y ago
        You realize that a person doesn't have to belong to the Illuminati as a precondition to lobby for special or opaque legislation, right? The only precondition intent needs is a conflict of interest. Look at Intuit. A number of years back, California piloted a program that simplified filing tax returns for people opting to take the standard deduction. They would mail you a form that was prefilled so you could simply sign it and mail it back. Intuit lobbied to kill it and won. No laws were broken. They were simply acting in the interest of their shareholders. The American Immigration Lawyers Association is one of many lobbying groups that represents 13,000 members. Many of these members help the 80,000 some H1B applicants through the process and can charge legal fees in the ballpark of $10,000 to do that. Assuming all 80,000 applicants spent $10,000 in legal fees, we're talking about ~$1bn market on top for that type of work alone. In the grand scheme of things, it's not a lot, but it's one component that can create a conflict of interest. Let's assume the AILA is an upstanding group and all of the lobbyists they hire are ethical boy scouts. They would never influence our legislators to intentionally complicate laws to serve their members. Instead, they would recognize that it's in our nation's best interest that our immigration systems are robust, thorough and comprehensive. They'd also emphasize that their members provide a critical service to sherpa honest immigrants through this thoroughly comprehensive system. You don't need to be behind a ridiculous conspiracy to influence legislation to serve your best interests. These days, you're way better off being transparent and operating under an ethical framework.

sliverstorm 10y ago

So this conviction is not that much about H1-B's replacing American workers as much as it is about an unethical employer paying his employees less than the promised wage. Though, the two are deeply entwined. If you prevent this kind of exploitation, using H1-B's as a source of cheap labor (and thus cheap American worker replacements) becomes less feasible.

parennoob 10y ago

> Hopefully, that will improve the perception around genuine H1-B VISA holders. This. As a fairly paid H1B (I have discussed salary openly with my American coworkers), I always cringe when stories like the Disney one come up, because I feel like the next day a couple of them are going to be saying, "Ugh, there's the H1B that's taking our jobs away". For this reason, I hope all the fraudulent H1B companies are pushed out of business with strict penalties. Also I really wish there were some sane laws around H1B (sorting priority by salary relative to prevailing wage, untying employers from the visa, etc.)

siculars 10y ago

Every STEM grad from a US program should get a greencard/visa stapled to their diploma. Why isn't that happening?

dmm 10y ago
I like the concept but I can see a few potential problems with the idea. Firstly this would give universities the power to print green cards. That's a power they probably shouldn't have. Secondly I really don't think there is a shortage of scientists or mathematicians so STEM is probably a suboptimal group to apply this policy. I personally know a person with a masters in geophysics who drives for lyft. Ask a recent biology major about their job prospects, etc.
- dzhiurgis 10y ago
  I work for this such type of consulting shop abroad (first world), supposedly best in the country and earn same as average Uber driver. I think the model is not limited to the US. There are plenty of people willing to have abroad experience, but it does demotivate you to certain degree. I can imagine market geophysics specialists is extremely tiny.
bduerst 10y ago
They need to be paid more than the prevailing wage for citizens working the same job in the area they are working.

mh_yam 10y ago

I am in the same boat (bachelors + masters from US universities and on H-1B). I've been in the US for almost 10 years now since undergrad and have put down roots (friends, acquaintances, credit history, etc). It is very unfair for us to be put into the same bucket as body shop labor from India. I personally know several people who were forced to leave the US because they didn't get chosen in the H-1B lottery. There needs to be a new visa that caters specifically to those in our situation. USCIS needs to let the consultancy companies and body shops compete among themselves for H-1B and stop screwing law-abiding international students who have devoted 4-6 (or more) years of their lives to living in the US, who suddenly might lose everything they've worked for because of the H-1B lottery.

surfmike 10y ago
One thing that helps at least is that the H1B lottery cap doesn't apply to students who got a graduate degree in the US. ie there are unlimited H1B visas for people in that boat.
- chime 10y ago
  Is that already a law?
- ninja_to_be 10y ago
  It is not unlimited, but there is a separate lottery for 20,000 visas for advanced degree holders.
  - khare_ashwini 10y ago
    ...and the unselected ones from this lot get one more chance in the general pool of 65000
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
vitd 10y ago
Serious question - I don't in any way intend this to sound inflammatory. If you've been here almost 10 years and have set down roots, why haven't you just applied to be a citizen? It sounds like you want to stay, and frankly, it sounds like it would be good for us to have you. Is there something holding you back beyond just personal preference? (Or are you already in the process but haven't completed it?)

mh_yam 10y ago

bduerst 10y ago

Thank you for clarifying. I think one of the biggest problems with immigration in the U.S. is that citizens aren't that knowledgeable in the H1B approval process, and tend to attribute these abusers to all H1B sponsors.

WalterBright 10y ago

7 years is a very harsh sentence for a non-violent crime.