9 ms·

The Thai cleaning lady facing prison for 'I see'

100 points by cronjobber 10y ago

ck2 10y ago
WTF 56 years? This makes China and Saudi Arabia look almost sane. First sign of weak rulers is when they make insulting them a prison term (same goes for religions).
- kordless 10y ago
  > She responded to comments the police say are defamatory with the Thai word "ja", which translates as "I see", or "ok". The police say she should have condemned the comments. The definition of a dictatorship is they dictate what you should say. That's how they keep control.
  - hackerboos 10y ago
    These laws have been on the books well before the junta seized power. It's a criminal offense to criticize monarchs both living and dead in Thailand. A lot of people found guilty are pardoned, but a lot are not.
    - PeterisP 10y ago
      This event seems not to fall under these laws - it has not been shown that she has criticized the monarch, and "should have condemned the criticism" is an entirely different issue, these laws do not state that failing to condemn criticism is a criminal offense.
      - hackerboos 10y ago
        From the article: "She is accused of insulting the monarchy - a charge that can lead to jail sentences of up to 15 years."
    - powera 10y ago
      Except this isn't "criticizing the monarch". This is making a case out of basically nothing against the mother of a "student activist".
      - JadeNB 10y ago
        I think that this point is easy to miss, since it's practically a throwaway remark in the article: this does not appear to be in any direct sense about the woman's Facebook comment; rather, it is an intentionally overzealous application of a law to a situation where it applies only tenuously at best, in order to silence someone else's dissenting voice.
        sheepleherd 10y ago
        oh the rich rich irony of your comment here, you silencer of dissenting opinions you.
- curiousgal 10y ago
  56/2 actually.
pizza 10y ago
That's so awful.
- xufi 10y ago
  It is. All she did was acknowledge something. I've seen another instance where a Thai man liked a photo on Facebook. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/10/thai-man-arrested-facebook-like-photo-king http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/10/thai-man-arrest... Pretty sad this is becoming more widespread in Thailand
LouisSayers 10y ago
Yes, first rule when you go to Thailand - don't say anything about the king. It's strange when they talk about the military presence over there. I was over there for two months at the start of the year, (3rd visit in the past 2 years), and as usual didn't notice any military except for when I was close to the Burmese border (they were checking everyone for papers), and around the Kings palace.
kingkawn 10y ago
I was in Thailand in 2012, spent a day in Bangkok hanging out with my former office assistant who had returned there to take care of family. While walking through the park there was sudden music playing from the loud speakers. Everyone stopped and stood perfectly still. My friend had gone into a public bathroom and rushed back out to make sure I was standing as well. There was an announcement from the king that lasted a few minutes. After it ended everyone resumed their walking, sitting on the grass, and exercise routines. I found it hard to imagine political intrusions like this in daily life, although it seemed akin to being at a sports event that had obligatory random national anthems in the middle of a game. Anyway it seemed indicative of a larger political climate of intrusion, but it sounds as though it's gotten exponentially worse.
- dreamfactory2 10y ago
  this tradition happens twice a day - http://tastythailand.com/standing-still-for-thailands-national-anthem-every-day/ http://tastythailand.com/standing-still-for-thailands-nation...
kristianc 10y ago
I was in Thailand in December, and the political situation there is really not great at the moment. The 90-year old King, whom Thais regard on the whole with a great deal of respect, is dying. He is in hospital for much of the time, there are rumours that he now barely speaks, and he is hardly seen in public at all anymore. The military is nervous about what happens when the King dies, as his son is not held in anywhere near the same high level of esteem with the public. The King's popularity stems from being seen as a 'unifying force' through many of Thailand's political crises. Fearing a constitutional crisis when he dies, they're now clamping down heavily on any dissent. Which makes the atmosphere on the street a little strange. I was there on the King's birthday in December, and the whole country (people included) were decked out in yellow, the King's colour. There are icons of the King every 300 yards or so in central Bangkok (less so out in CM). While I was there someone was sentenced to several years in prison for a Facebook post about the King's dog. The laws re: insulting the monarchy have been around for a while, but are now being much more widely applied and strictly enforced. It's very very hard to work out if the public affection for the King is for real, and no Thai will speak openly about their feelings. I spoke to a taxi driver on the way out of the country and said I'd been in the country for the King's birthday. His response: 'Yes.' I left the country fascinated by the experience of a population living under authoritarian military rule, but really hope that for everyone's sake Thailand is able to resolve its difficulties and get back to regular elections soon.
- dave2000 10y ago
  > I left the country fascinated by the experience of a > population living under authoritarian military rule, It's not as simple as that. They are a democracy, with regular elections. They're just punctuated with military coups. There'll be tanks in the street and the military will have to, after a few days, try and stop people from dancing on/near the tanks. There'll be as many people in favour of the coup as against it. The military situation has nothing to do with the respect for the king; the coups don't happen without the king's blessing. Absent the monarchy in Thailand I don't think the situation regarding democracy would be any different at all.
  - kelnos 10y ago
curiousgal 10y ago
There's an Arabic saying that goes لا تسأل الطغاة لماذا طغوا , بل اسأل العبيد لماذا ركعوا Do not ask the tyrants why they tyrannised, but ask the slaves why they knelt.
- JadeNB 10y ago
  Maybe I'm misreading you, but this seems disrespectful—to victims of tyrants in general, and to the victim of this possible prison sentence in particular—and I can't see what it adds to the discussion.
  - Roboprog 10y ago
    It makes sense to me. It's not insulting, it's merely stating that you should consider your situation.
  - kbenson 10y ago
    I think maybe you're stuck on a particular interpretation. A "slave" can "kneel" for many reasons, including because they don't want to see more fighting, because they don't think they can win, because they see another way to fight such as through politics, because the through to their loved ones is too large, because they think the current "tyrant" is the current best choice. Another way to word it in the interpretation I choose is "Don't ask the ruler for justification of the laws they made, ask the subjects why they followed those laws."
    - curiousgal 10y ago
      >"Don't ask the ruler for justification of the laws they made, ask the subjects why they followed those laws." That is precisely the intended interpretation of the saying.
  - Dove 10y ago
    You can't be made a slave without your permission. You can be made a fugitive, a prisoner, or dead... but you can't be made a slave.
CommanderNyx 10y ago
I lived in Thailand in the 90s. Sad to see it's become (or was it always?) so draconian with speech perceived to be against the monarchy. :\
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
hackerboos 10y ago
Thailand's technically a constitutional monarchy but the royalty is much more than just a figurehead like those in Western Europe. The actively interfere in elections and are on record supporting the various coups that have happened over the decades. Cables leaked more recently had the King backing the army during the massacre in Thammasat University. People should really read "The King Never Smiles" to get an idea of how this came to be.
- ra1n85 10y ago
  Excellent book. Also banned in Thailand.
Bromskloss 10y ago
Explanation of the title: > So what did Patnaree do to get charged? According to her lawyer, the only evidence the police have produced is an exchange on Facebook between her and a political activist, in which she responded to comments the police say are defamatory with the Thai word "ja", which translates as "I see", or "ok".
- ra1n85 10y ago
  "Ja" is the informal rural equivalent of "Ka", which is used here as an acknowledgement. "Ja" may have been interpreted as improper in this context, as it is not formal. Language is something different to Thais - the West does not really have an equivalent, which probably makes this confusing to some. For instance, royalty in Thailand have a whole unique language that they, and their servants, converse in (Ra-cha sap). The only thing I can think of that's even close is the use of Latin in Catholic churches.
  - JBReefer 10y ago
    Can you source that? It sounds really interesting, but Google turns up nothing
    - exthaicitizen 10y ago
      https://thaitranslation.wordpress.com/tag/thai-royal-language/ https://thaitranslation.wordpress.com/tag/thai-royal-languag...
jewbacca 10y ago
Related from earlier this week: Thai government plans to MITM all internet communications https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11801325 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11801325
wueiued 10y ago
German comedian faces prison for mocking Turkish leader [1] In Canada men went to jail for disagreeing with feminist. He was latter released on bail, but could not use computer and electronic devices for 4 years. Father of five is graphic designer...[2] [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/04/german-erdogan-insult-case/478437/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/04/ger... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Elliott https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Elliott
- mtmail 10y ago
  That caused much interest in Germany. All parties agree the law (§ 103 StGB, to insult a foreign head of state) is outdated and needs to go. Removing it won't be fast-tracked, at the same time the case again the comedian Mr Böhmermann will surely be slow-tracked by the investigators. Chancellor Merkel, after pressure from Turkey, followed the law though she had the right to overturn it (§ 104a StGB). Anyway, once removed a judge in Germany can check what the law said when the case was opened vs the current state of the law and use the milder one (§ 2 StGB). I expect the comedian will be fine. Other comedians and newspapers supported him, there was even a song "sue me as well", the Germans in general see the whole affair as a joke. Last week the German parliament officially recognized the genocide against the Armenians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide) causing yet another heavy complaint from Turkey. I've read the head of Turkey is currently actively suing several hundred people.
- drdeca 10y ago
  I believe that the way you phrased that second thing is potentially misleading. Not being allowed to use twitter or "have a smartphone or use a computer with Internet access" (direct quote from wikipedia because I'm not sure whether the internet access part applies to the smartphone part.) was part of the bail. The 4 years were between the time which he was charged (Nov 2012) , and the time that all charges were dismissed (Jan 2016. So, really, closer to 3 years, but that difference doesn't matter all that much). I believe that someone who did not read what you linked might assume that you meant that it was part of a sentencing for something he was charged with, as opposed to part of the bail. Indeed, I initially misunderstood your comment in that way. So, I would like to clarify this potential confusion for anyone else reading your comment, and also let you know that people may be lead to make inaccurate assumptions if you phrase things like that. In addition, I think your phrase "for disagreeing with feminist" is probably suboptimal / unclear. It is true of course that the things that happened to him were a result of things he said to and about the person(s) in question, but that isn't how a typical person would understand "went to jail for disagreeing with an <X>". I believe that a typical native English speaker would typically interpret "They were sent to jail for disagreeing with a <X>." to mean that the person was jailed for the opinion that they held or expressed, not for the way they allegedly expressed their disagreement with the <X> in question. Am I saying that what happened to the person was right? No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm only saying that I think that the way you said the things, while perhaps technically true in a sense, has a high risk of people misinterpreting it as saying something that is not true.
contingencies 10y ago
Check out the posters threatening jail for 'like' or 'share' put up publicly around Bangkok during the beginning of this round of unrest back in 2014: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Thailand#Aftermath_of_2014_coup_d.27etat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Thailan...

100 points by cronjobber 10y ago

ck2 10y ago

WTF 56 years? This makes China and Saudi Arabia look almost sane. First sign of weak rulers is when they make insulting them a prison term (same goes for religions).

kordless 10y ago
> She responded to comments the police say are defamatory with the Thai word "ja", which translates as "I see", or "ok". The police say she should have condemned the comments. The definition of a dictatorship is they dictate what you should say. That's how they keep control.
- hackerboos 10y ago
  These laws have been on the books well before the junta seized power. It's a criminal offense to criticize monarchs both living and dead in Thailand. A lot of people found guilty are pardoned, but a lot are not.
  - PeterisP 10y ago
    This event seems not to fall under these laws - it has not been shown that she has criticized the monarch, and "should have condemned the criticism" is an entirely different issue, these laws do not state that failing to condemn criticism is a criminal offense.
    - hackerboos 10y ago
      From the article: "She is accused of insulting the monarchy - a charge that can lead to jail sentences of up to 15 years."
  - powera 10y ago
    Except this isn't "criticizing the monarch". This is making a case out of basically nothing against the mother of a "student activist".
    - JadeNB 10y ago
      I think that this point is easy to miss, since it's practically a throwaway remark in the article: this does not appear to be in any direct sense about the woman's Facebook comment; rather, it is an intentionally overzealous application of a law to a situation where it applies only tenuously at best, in order to silence someone else's dissenting voice.
      - sheepleherd 10y ago
        oh the rich rich irony of your comment here, you silencer of dissenting opinions you.
curiousgal 10y ago
56/2 actually.

pizza 10y ago

That's so awful.

xufi 10y ago
It is. All she did was acknowledge something. I've seen another instance where a Thai man liked a photo on Facebook. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/10/thai-man-arrested-facebook-like-photo-king http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/10/thai-man-arrest... Pretty sad this is becoming more widespread in Thailand

LouisSayers 10y ago

Yes, first rule when you go to Thailand - don't say anything about the king. It's strange when they talk about the military presence over there. I was over there for two months at the start of the year, (3rd visit in the past 2 years), and as usual didn't notice any military except for when I was close to the Burmese border (they were checking everyone for papers), and around the Kings palace.

kingkawn 10y ago

I was in Thailand in 2012, spent a day in Bangkok hanging out with my former office assistant who had returned there to take care of family. While walking through the park there was sudden music playing from the loud speakers. Everyone stopped and stood perfectly still. My friend had gone into a public bathroom and rushed back out to make sure I was standing as well. There was an announcement from the king that lasted a few minutes. After it ended everyone resumed their walking, sitting on the grass, and exercise routines. I found it hard to imagine political intrusions like this in daily life, although it seemed akin to being at a sports event that had obligatory random national anthems in the middle of a game. Anyway it seemed indicative of a larger political climate of intrusion, but it sounds as though it's gotten exponentially worse.

dreamfactory2 10y ago
this tradition happens twice a day - http://tastythailand.com/standing-still-for-thailands-national-anthem-every-day/ http://tastythailand.com/standing-still-for-thailands-nation...

kristianc 10y ago

I was in Thailand in December, and the political situation there is really not great at the moment. The 90-year old King, whom Thais regard on the whole with a great deal of respect, is dying. He is in hospital for much of the time, there are rumours that he now barely speaks, and he is hardly seen in public at all anymore. The military is nervous about what happens when the King dies, as his son is not held in anywhere near the same high level of esteem with the public. The King's popularity stems from being seen as a 'unifying force' through many of Thailand's political crises. Fearing a constitutional crisis when he dies, they're now clamping down heavily on any dissent. Which makes the atmosphere on the street a little strange. I was there on the King's birthday in December, and the whole country (people included) were decked out in yellow, the King's colour. There are icons of the King every 300 yards or so in central Bangkok (less so out in CM). While I was there someone was sentenced to several years in prison for a Facebook post about the King's dog. The laws re: insulting the monarchy have been around for a while, but are now being much more widely applied and strictly enforced. It's very very hard to work out if the public affection for the King is for real, and no Thai will speak openly about their feelings. I spoke to a taxi driver on the way out of the country and said I'd been in the country for the King's birthday. His response: 'Yes.' I left the country fascinated by the experience of a population living under authoritarian military rule, but really hope that for everyone's sake Thailand is able to resolve its difficulties and get back to regular elections soon.

dave2000 10y ago
> I left the country fascinated by the experience of a > population living under authoritarian military rule, It's not as simple as that. They are a democracy, with regular elections. They're just punctuated with military coups. There'll be tanks in the street and the military will have to, after a few days, try and stop people from dancing on/near the tanks. There'll be as many people in favour of the coup as against it. The military situation has nothing to do with the respect for the king; the coups don't happen without the king's blessing. Absent the monarchy in Thailand I don't think the situation regarding democracy would be any different at all.
- kelnos 10y ago

curiousgal 10y ago

There's an Arabic saying that goes لا تسأل الطغاة لماذا طغوا , بل اسأل العبيد لماذا ركعوا Do not ask the tyrants why they tyrannised, but ask the slaves why they knelt.

JadeNB 10y ago
Maybe I'm misreading you, but this seems disrespectful—to victims of tyrants in general, and to the victim of this possible prison sentence in particular—and I can't see what it adds to the discussion.
- Roboprog 10y ago
  It makes sense to me. It's not insulting, it's merely stating that you should consider your situation.
- kbenson 10y ago
  I think maybe you're stuck on a particular interpretation. A "slave" can "kneel" for many reasons, including because they don't want to see more fighting, because they don't think they can win, because they see another way to fight such as through politics, because the through to their loved ones is too large, because they think the current "tyrant" is the current best choice. Another way to word it in the interpretation I choose is "Don't ask the ruler for justification of the laws they made, ask the subjects why they followed those laws."
  - curiousgal 10y ago
    >"Don't ask the ruler for justification of the laws they made, ask the subjects why they followed those laws." That is precisely the intended interpretation of the saying.
- Dove 10y ago
  You can't be made a slave without your permission. You can be made a fugitive, a prisoner, or dead... but you can't be made a slave.

CommanderNyx 10y ago

I lived in Thailand in the 90s. Sad to see it's become (or was it always?) so draconian with speech perceived to be against the monarchy. :\

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

hackerboos 10y ago

Thailand's technically a constitutional monarchy but the royalty is much more than just a figurehead like those in Western Europe. The actively interfere in elections and are on record supporting the various coups that have happened over the decades. Cables leaked more recently had the King backing the army during the massacre in Thammasat University. People should really read "The King Never Smiles" to get an idea of how this came to be.

ra1n85 10y ago
Excellent book. Also banned in Thailand.

Bromskloss 10y ago

Explanation of the title: > So what did Patnaree do to get charged? According to her lawyer, the only evidence the police have produced is an exchange on Facebook between her and a political activist, in which she responded to comments the police say are defamatory with the Thai word "ja", which translates as "I see", or "ok".

ra1n85 10y ago
"Ja" is the informal rural equivalent of "Ka", which is used here as an acknowledgement. "Ja" may have been interpreted as improper in this context, as it is not formal. Language is something different to Thais - the West does not really have an equivalent, which probably makes this confusing to some. For instance, royalty in Thailand have a whole unique language that they, and their servants, converse in (Ra-cha sap). The only thing I can think of that's even close is the use of Latin in Catholic churches.
- JBReefer 10y ago
  Can you source that? It sounds really interesting, but Google turns up nothing
  - exthaicitizen 10y ago
    https://thaitranslation.wordpress.com/tag/thai-royal-language/ https://thaitranslation.wordpress.com/tag/thai-royal-languag...

jewbacca 10y ago

Related from earlier this week: Thai government plans to MITM all internet communications https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11801325 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11801325

wueiued 10y ago

German comedian faces prison for mocking Turkish leader [1] In Canada men went to jail for disagreeing with feminist. He was latter released on bail, but could not use computer and electronic devices for 4 years. Father of five is graphic designer...[2] [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/04/german-erdogan-insult-case/478437/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/04/ger... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Elliott https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Elliott

mtmail 10y ago
That caused much interest in Germany. All parties agree the law (§ 103 StGB, to insult a foreign head of state) is outdated and needs to go. Removing it won't be fast-tracked, at the same time the case again the comedian Mr Böhmermann will surely be slow-tracked by the investigators. Chancellor Merkel, after pressure from Turkey, followed the law though she had the right to overturn it (§ 104a StGB). Anyway, once removed a judge in Germany can check what the law said when the case was opened vs the current state of the law and use the milder one (§ 2 StGB). I expect the comedian will be fine. Other comedians and newspapers supported him, there was even a song "sue me as well", the Germans in general see the whole affair as a joke. Last week the German parliament officially recognized the genocide against the Armenians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide) causing yet another heavy complaint from Turkey. I've read the head of Turkey is currently actively suing several hundred people.
drdeca 10y ago
I believe that the way you phrased that second thing is potentially misleading. Not being allowed to use twitter or "have a smartphone or use a computer with Internet access" (direct quote from wikipedia because I'm not sure whether the internet access part applies to the smartphone part.) was part of the bail. The 4 years were between the time which he was charged (Nov 2012) , and the time that all charges were dismissed (Jan 2016. So, really, closer to 3 years, but that difference doesn't matter all that much). I believe that someone who did not read what you linked might assume that you meant that it was part of a sentencing for something he was charged with, as opposed to part of the bail. Indeed, I initially misunderstood your comment in that way. So, I would like to clarify this potential confusion for anyone else reading your comment, and also let you know that people may be lead to make inaccurate assumptions if you phrase things like that. In addition, I think your phrase "for disagreeing with feminist" is probably suboptimal / unclear. It is true of course that the things that happened to him were a result of things he said to and about the person(s) in question, but that isn't how a typical person would understand "went to jail for disagreeing with an <X>". I believe that a typical native English speaker would typically interpret "They were sent to jail for disagreeing with a <X>." to mean that the person was jailed for the opinion that they held or expressed, not for the way they allegedly expressed their disagreement with the <X> in question. Am I saying that what happened to the person was right? No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm only saying that I think that the way you said the things, while perhaps technically true in a sense, has a high risk of people misinterpreting it as saying something that is not true.

contingencies 10y ago

Check out the posters threatening jail for 'like' or 'share' put up publicly around Bangkok during the beginning of this round of unrest back in 2014: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Thailand#Aftermath_of_2014_coup_d.27etat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Thailan...