5 ms·

Help me understand - why is this so bad?

by peteretep 10y ago

JoshMnem 10y ago
Some people don't want any Facebook software in their phones for legitimate privacy reasons.
- curiousgal 10y ago
  Emphasis on legitimate, Facebook is giving Google a run for their money when it comes to privacy invasion.
- yellowapple 10y ago
  Not to mention that Facebook's apps are notorious for their battery usage (probably because of their egregious privacy-violating "features", but whatever).
- peteretep 10y ago
  What is it that Messenger the app can access that Messenger via Facebook cannot, for people who take their privacy seriously?
  - em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
    Privacy concerned users can use wrappers around the Facebook website, such as the open source "Tinfoil for Facebook" or "Face Slim" android apps, then Facebook cannot access certain things (depending on your configuration). If have to use a proprietary facebook app, then likely cannot achieve the same degree of privacy protections.
    - peteretep 10y ago
      I'm sorry. I still don't understand what specific information Facebook can gather from them using their app that they can't from the browser. When I look in my phone settings for the Messenger app, I can switch off it's ability to look at locations, photos, etc. Tinfoil appears to be an app to specifically work around the fact that browsers can leak more information than the app would.
      - em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
        well the facebook app is always on, even in background. It is probably reading every keystroke and touch action, and even every pause between actions. But when accessing the basic browser site inside tinfoil, they can only get http actions you actually transmit, such as likes, login times, page loads, etc.
        peteretep 10y ago
        You think apps can read the text you type in to other apps without your permission?
        em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
        Of course not other apps. I'm talking about the facebook app itself. When you start typing text, it is presumably reading the delay between every keystroke and all your deletes. However, on the non-js html site, it only can get the text after you submit.
  - JoshMnem 10y ago
    I don't put any Facebook software on my phone, including Instagram, WhatsApp, Facebook, and Facebook Messenger. The reason they are forcing people to use Facebook Messenger is to force people who only use the website to install software that tracks you.
e12e 10y ago
There are no good chat platforms that have anywhere near the network effect of Facebook. There are a couple of silos that are ok, like Hangouts and presumably iMessage. People don't generally use XMPP. Sending a text message can be a bit intrusive, a facebook message is more like an email in that I don't expect to wake someone in a different timezone if I send one - but it's unlike an email in that I can be fairly certain (a certain subset) of people will get it. And might check it/reply when it's convenient for them to talk. An asynchronous signalling of a conversation, if you will. So when choosing between a lot of bad and propietary options for chat, fb messaging was best. Except you can't and shouldn't trust FB to make client software; they take to many permissions, they might mess with your (contact) data - the apps have an inflated sense of urgency (hangouts is guilty of this too). And they are resource hungry. And as fb chat is generally (for me) somewhat asynchronous, the web client was perfect: I could see if there were any new messages, and if there were any new notifications at the same time. Moving this to one platform, for me, kills the product. At least on mobile. And if I can't use it on mobile, I'll probably slowly stop using it altogether. For me it's mainly bad, because I see no clear alternative. Facebook was the one silo I could reliably reach most acquaintances. I'm not on snapchat, but even if I was, there are people I might occasionally reach out to on fb, that I probably won't contact/be contacted by on snapchat. Google social efforts is a joke, and many people don't really use email for personal communication.
- peteretep 10y ago
  The first part of your argument makes perfect sense. The rest less so. Looking at my iOS phone's options, I believe I can disable access to pretty much any data the browser doesn't have, including notifications. What am I missing?
  - e12e 10y ago
    Probably that I have an Android phone :-) [ed: About notifications - I think the point there is more a cultural point. I don't want to send you a fb message at 3 am your time if I think it might wake you up.]

Help me understand - why is this so bad?

JoshMnem 10y ago

Some people don't want any Facebook software in their phones for legitimate privacy reasons.

curiousgal 10y ago
Emphasis on legitimate, Facebook is giving Google a run for their money when it comes to privacy invasion.
yellowapple 10y ago
Not to mention that Facebook's apps are notorious for their battery usage (probably because of their egregious privacy-violating "features", but whatever).
peteretep 10y ago
What is it that Messenger the app can access that Messenger via Facebook cannot, for people who take their privacy seriously?
- em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
  Privacy concerned users can use wrappers around the Facebook website, such as the open source "Tinfoil for Facebook" or "Face Slim" android apps, then Facebook cannot access certain things (depending on your configuration). If have to use a proprietary facebook app, then likely cannot achieve the same degree of privacy protections.
  - peteretep 10y ago
    I'm sorry. I still don't understand what specific information Facebook can gather from them using their app that they can't from the browser. When I look in my phone settings for the Messenger app, I can switch off it's ability to look at locations, photos, etc. Tinfoil appears to be an app to specifically work around the fact that browsers can leak more information than the app would.
    - em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
      well the facebook app is always on, even in background. It is probably reading every keystroke and touch action, and even every pause between actions. But when accessing the basic browser site inside tinfoil, they can only get http actions you actually transmit, such as likes, login times, page loads, etc.
      - peteretep 10y ago
        You think apps can read the text you type in to other apps without your permission?
        em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
        Of course not other apps. I'm talking about the facebook app itself. When you start typing text, it is presumably reading the delay between every keystroke and all your deletes. However, on the non-js html site, it only can get the text after you submit.
- JoshMnem 10y ago
  I don't put any Facebook software on my phone, including Instagram, WhatsApp, Facebook, and Facebook Messenger. The reason they are forcing people to use Facebook Messenger is to force people who only use the website to install software that tracks you.

e12e 10y ago

There are no good chat platforms that have anywhere near the network effect of Facebook. There are a couple of silos that are ok, like Hangouts and presumably iMessage. People don't generally use XMPP. Sending a text message can be a bit intrusive, a facebook message is more like an email in that I don't expect to wake someone in a different timezone if I send one - but it's unlike an email in that I can be fairly certain (a certain subset) of people will get it. And might check it/reply when it's convenient for them to talk. An asynchronous signalling of a conversation, if you will. So when choosing between a lot of bad and propietary options for chat, fb messaging was best. Except you can't and shouldn't trust FB to make client software; they take to many permissions, they might mess with your (contact) data - the apps have an inflated sense of urgency (hangouts is guilty of this too). And they are resource hungry. And as fb chat is generally (for me) somewhat asynchronous, the web client was perfect: I could see if there were any new messages, and if there were any new notifications at the same time. Moving this to one platform, for me, kills the product. At least on mobile. And if I can't use it on mobile, I'll probably slowly stop using it altogether. For me it's mainly bad, because I see no clear alternative. Facebook was the one silo I could reliably reach most acquaintances. I'm not on snapchat, but even if I was, there are people I might occasionally reach out to on fb, that I probably won't contact/be contacted by on snapchat. Google social efforts is a joke, and many people don't really use email for personal communication.

peteretep 10y ago
The first part of your argument makes perfect sense. The rest less so. Looking at my iOS phone's options, I believe I can disable access to pretty much any data the browser doesn't have, including notifications. What am I missing?
- e12e 10y ago
  Probably that I have an Android phone :-) [ed: About notifications - I think the point there is more a cultural point. I don't want to send you a fb message at 3 am your time if I think it might wake you up.]