10 ms·

"... longest and deepest rail tunnel ..." and "... delivered on time and within budget ..." Only in Switzerland, I guess. :) I wish there were better write up

"... longest and deepest rail tunnel ..." and "... delivered on time and within budget ..." Only in Switzerland, I guess. :) I wish there were better write ups of how the planning for this came together and what differs from other somewhat similar huge projects.

captainpiggies 10y ago
"delivered on time" It's even better. They are about one year ahead of schedule.
- elcapitan 10y ago
  There's a million reasons to love Switzerland, and now there's 57km more of it. This is amazing. Once the new Berlin airport is finished in about 5-10 years, I'll fly down there to celebrate.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    > Once the new Berlin airport is finished in about 5-10 years, I'll fly down there to celebrate. Rather if the new Berlin airport is ever finished... In other words: If you want to celebrate, rather fly down to Berlin now and celebrate the opening of the Gotthard tunnel in Berlin.
    - elcapitan 10y ago
      I know, I live there ;)
      - sanoli 10y ago
        To all you western europeans complaining: come down to Brazil, and I'll take you on a tour of our "Top Ten Most Abandoned-Halfway Billion Dollar Government Works" ;-) Oh, and just to give an example, the construction of one of our nuclear power plants began in 1984 but was halted in 1986, only to begin where it left off in 2010, to be finished in 2015. Wait, now it is in 2016. Nope, just checked, it should be in 2018. All the while, the cost to maintain the stuff that was already bought or built is around 20 million a year, since 1986. So yeah, this one is on our TOP TEN list. This little swiss tunnel is not.
        pantalaimon 10y ago
        Well construction of the Cologne Cathedral started in 1248 and was halted in 1473, only to begin where it left off in 1842 and was eventually completed in 1880 - so don't give up hope ;)
        elcapitan 10y ago
        And it was totally worth the little wait!
        nickik 10y ago
        The should have checked in with the Byzantians, the Hagia Sofia was finished in 6 years and remained the largest Cathedral for almost 1000 years.
        dghughes 10y ago
        In Spain the Sagrada Família cathedral has been under construction for 134 years and has another 30 to go.
- arrrg 10y ago
  Ahead of schedule based on an adjusted schedule during construction. They are slightly behind the originally planned schedule (a couple years). Obviously this is still a very well executed project overall.
  - captainpiggies 10y ago
    Well obviously it's part of the Requirement Engineering process to adjust the schedule when the requirements change.
    - lgieron 10y ago
      And, more often than not, these requirement changes are used as excuses for extending the deadline so that project ends up being done "on time". I've worked in management on multi-year waterfall projects and this is how this game is played.
      - elcapitan 10y ago
        It would be fun to see an "agile" tunnel project. "This rock is too solid to drill through with our machines!" – "Ok, for now let's just drill around it and make it an underground rollercoaster instead of a railway, we can get back to the original design later!"
        tonyedgecombe 10y ago
        That's not agile, that's a pivot :)
        Annatar 10y ago
        Not in this case, as the train is specified to go at 250 km/h, which means that the tunnel had to be pretty straight, or else the train might derail at that speed.
        ucaetano 10y ago
sschueller 10y ago
There is a bit on wikipedia[1] (more in the german version). The project wasn't with out Problems but because of such strict planning they could be solved. For example one of the TBM's got stuck for months, another issues such as sub contractors delivering fraudulent materials also had to be dealt with. [2] Although the Swiss part went well there are issues with the connection in Germany and Italy. Some projects in Italy haven't even started yet and one part Switzerland is now paying for just to get the trains through. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel [2] http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wissen/natur/was-die-tunnelbauer-im-gotthard-antrafen/story/11796993 http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wissen/natur/was-die-tunnelbauer...
- elcapitan 10y ago
  It's amazing how hot it is in some places underground, up to 44C. Wow.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    That's just the Earth's internal heater with a nice insulating blanket on top of it.
  - Kristine1975 10y ago
    At least the workers had air conditioning: http://interaktiv.tagesanzeiger.ch/2016/gotthard-system/ http://interaktiv.tagesanzeiger.ch/2016/gotthard-system/ Security of the workers was strictly controlled. Working temperature for example was not allowed to exceed 28°C, which was achieved through cooling installations.
  - Shivetya 10y ago
    I am curious that if we do get to Mars can we simply dig down or go under a mountain for warmth? You would not need a full on tunnel, just a system similar to geothermal heating
    - xenophonf 10y ago
r3to 10y ago
just to be fair, during the NEAT project the budget has been adjusted several times.
albinoloverats 10y ago
This is what I noticed most too; then I wondered how it compares with Crossrail. (Obviously I imagine tunneling under London is vastly different than under a mountain.)
- lmm 10y ago
  Crossrail is also ahead of schedule and under budget (taking into account an explicit decision to delay it for a year but allow them to reduce the original budget by 1bn). They've done it by ruthlessly resisting scope creep. The flipside of that is that things added on later will end up costing more overall (e.g. adding the station at Old Oak Common and the connection to the WCML to relieve capacity while Euston is rebuilt for HS2) than if they were done as part of Crossrail.
bjelkeman-again 10y ago
A much shorter tunnel, but with two new underground train stations, is being built under Stockholm, Sweden.[1] It is about 1/6 of the Swiss budget (about $2 billion). It will be completed on budget and slightly ahead of time this year.[2] So it can be done. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_City_Line https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_City_Line [2] in Swedish. http://framtidensinfrastruktur.se/artikel/snart-fardigbyggt-pa-citybanan/ http://framtidensinfrastruktur.se/artikel/snart-fardigbyggt-...
- Numberwang 10y ago
  But most often, even in Sweden, it is not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallands%C3%A5s_Tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallands%C3%A5s_Tunnel
  - bjelkeman-again 10y ago
    Indeed projects in Sweden run över budget too. I was saying "it can be done" not that it is always successful. Other recent successes: Norra länken 2.6 Bn SEK under budget (part of circle road around Stockholm). [1][2] Arlandabanan (train service to Stockholm AirPort), on time and on budget. [3] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norra_länken https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norra_länken [2] https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norra_länken https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norra_länken [3] https://www.arlandaexpress.com/default.aspx?page=88&id=34 https://www.arlandaexpress.com/default.aspx?page=88&id=34
- tobltobs 10y ago
  You can't compare those two projects.
  - IshKebab 10y ago
    Clearly you can... Let's see: Underground?: Yes, Yes Budget: $2bn, $12bn (or whatever) On-time?: Yes, Yes Is a tunnel?: No, Yes ...
    - 10y ago
Olap84 10y ago
Scotland's latest bridge coming in under budget and on time even: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queensferry_Crossing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queensferry_Crossing
- stevekemp 10y ago
  That almost makes up for the over-spends on the Edinburgh trams, and the Scottish Parliament! (Speaking as an Edinburgh bloke who lived through the significant disruption down Leith Walk for a tramline that was never built; I'm not bitter. Though nowadays I live abroad. In a city with multiple tram-lines.)
- tomarr 10y ago
  Looks like you spoke to soon! Five month delay.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-36479440 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-36...
vmateixeira 10y ago
Only in not so corrupt countries..
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Annatar 10y ago
That is typical for Switzerland, and it is because for the Swiss, "planning is 50% of the work". They invest the time up-front in planning and thinking about how whatever it is they are doing is going to work, and once they either ran proof of concept tests or thought it through, they set the machinery in motion. There will even be a clearly documented process for modelling the process, and a process for getting the logistics squared away! It's such a great way to work, I'm a big fan of this work methodology, because it is oriented towards reaping long term profits with interest, be those profits with interest financial or intellectual.
- abduhl 10y ago
  This is incredibly disrespectful to the professionals in other parts of the developed world who do infrastructure or construction related work. Every mega project (and most mid sized projects) invests significant money and time in planning and design and also has defined work flows/design processes. I'd be interested to see any breakdown of costs or schedule that show "planning" as being 50% of the the work.
  - swombat 10y ago
    It seems a bit harsh to me to call this "incredibly disrespectful". I doubt that "incredible disrespect" was intended, nor is it inherent to the statement. What I think you mean is that the grandparent comment strikes you personally as not recognising the efforts of other engineers around the world, and you wish it did. I think that would be a less incendiary and aggressive way to get your point across, and, in most places, more likely to get a useful response.
    - abduhl 10y ago
      Thank you for the comment but your recommendation is unnecessary - from reading your post it is clear that the major components of my complaint were understood without issue. Disrespect occurs with or without intent. The original poster's comment can only be construed in one way: the Swiss do things this way, it is better, and therefore everybody else does it wrong. The claim (50% spent on planning) is clearly and demonstrably wrong. As someone who works in the tunneling industry I take personal offense to the implication that we (Americans, British, Spanish, Italian, Chinese, everyone not Swiss) don't "invest the time up-front in planning and thinking" before we "set the machinery in motion" and that we have a work methodology that isn't "oriented towards reaping long term profits with interest".
ucaetano 10y ago
There's (usually) a very good separation between the political and technical aspects of the project. You can take the Porta Alpina dise-project as an example (which wanted an underground station midway through the tunnel connecting to ski resorts). Despite strong political lobbying, the project was deemed uneconomical and canceled. If you compare it with the new span of the SF Bay Bridge, the difference is clear: there was far less political involvement in the technical details of the project in the Swiss case.
brohee 10y ago
Only in Europe maybe. The Millau Viaduct (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millau_Viaduct https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millau_Viaduct) was also on time and on budget, despite needing a few groundbreaking advances... Without public money even...
- yread 10y ago
  The highest bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidu_River_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidu_River_Bridge looks so unreal it looks like it was photoshopped over the valley. Sorry for OT. Back to work all of you!
jsingleton 10y ago
The Swiss also have a railway inside the Eiger. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungfrau_railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungfrau_railway
marban 10y ago
In parts you would rather have to give credits to the New Austrian Tunnelling method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Austrian_Tunnelling_method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Austrian_Tunnelling_method
snowwolf 10y ago
"... delivered on time and within budget ..." So for a project of this scale and timeline, they managed to use up exactly all the budget... (I assume it would say under/over budget if it was a significant amount off). What are the odds of predicting correctly the cost of a 20 year project especially given the volatility of markets over the last 20 years? I suspect either some corners were cut, or some contractors started padding out the bills towards the end...
simonebrunozzi 10y ago
The Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco was delivered ahead of schedule, and within budget. 80+ years ago.
- TulliusCicero 10y ago
  And only eleven people died building it!
ebrogley 10y ago
That is just plain wrong. The project was delayed multiple times and cost a few billions more than estimated. It was on time and budget because the time and budget were adjusted constantly.

captainpiggies 10y ago

"delivered on time" It's even better. They are about one year ahead of schedule.

elcapitan 10y ago
There's a million reasons to love Switzerland, and now there's 57km more of it. This is amazing. Once the new Berlin airport is finished in about 5-10 years, I'll fly down there to celebrate.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > Once the new Berlin airport is finished in about 5-10 years, I'll fly down there to celebrate. Rather if the new Berlin airport is ever finished... In other words: If you want to celebrate, rather fly down to Berlin now and celebrate the opening of the Gotthard tunnel in Berlin.
  - elcapitan 10y ago
    I know, I live there ;)
    - sanoli 10y ago
      To all you western europeans complaining: come down to Brazil, and I'll take you on a tour of our "Top Ten Most Abandoned-Halfway Billion Dollar Government Works" ;-) Oh, and just to give an example, the construction of one of our nuclear power plants began in 1984 but was halted in 1986, only to begin where it left off in 2010, to be finished in 2015. Wait, now it is in 2016. Nope, just checked, it should be in 2018. All the while, the cost to maintain the stuff that was already bought or built is around 20 million a year, since 1986. So yeah, this one is on our TOP TEN list. This little swiss tunnel is not.
      - pantalaimon 10y ago
        Well construction of the Cologne Cathedral started in 1248 and was halted in 1473, only to begin where it left off in 1842 and was eventually completed in 1880 - so don't give up hope ;)
        elcapitan 10y ago
        And it was totally worth the little wait!
        nickik 10y ago
        The should have checked in with the Byzantians, the Hagia Sofia was finished in 6 years and remained the largest Cathedral for almost 1000 years.
        dghughes 10y ago
        In Spain the Sagrada Família cathedral has been under construction for 134 years and has another 30 to go.
arrrg 10y ago
Ahead of schedule based on an adjusted schedule during construction. They are slightly behind the originally planned schedule (a couple years). Obviously this is still a very well executed project overall.
- captainpiggies 10y ago
  Well obviously it's part of the Requirement Engineering process to adjust the schedule when the requirements change.
  - lgieron 10y ago
    And, more often than not, these requirement changes are used as excuses for extending the deadline so that project ends up being done "on time". I've worked in management on multi-year waterfall projects and this is how this game is played.
    - elcapitan 10y ago
      It would be fun to see an "agile" tunnel project. "This rock is too solid to drill through with our machines!" – "Ok, for now let's just drill around it and make it an underground rollercoaster instead of a railway, we can get back to the original design later!"
      - tonyedgecombe 10y ago
        That's not agile, that's a pivot :)
      - Annatar 10y ago
        Not in this case, as the train is specified to go at 250 km/h, which means that the tunnel had to be pretty straight, or else the train might derail at that speed.
        ucaetano 10y ago

sschueller 10y ago

There is a bit on wikipedia[1] (more in the german version). The project wasn't with out Problems but because of such strict planning they could be solved. For example one of the TBM's got stuck for months, another issues such as sub contractors delivering fraudulent materials also had to be dealt with. [2] Although the Swiss part went well there are issues with the connection in Germany and Italy. Some projects in Italy haven't even started yet and one part Switzerland is now paying for just to get the trains through. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel [2] http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wissen/natur/was-die-tunnelbauer-im-gotthard-antrafen/story/11796993 http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wissen/natur/was-die-tunnelbauer...

elcapitan 10y ago
It's amazing how hot it is in some places underground, up to 44C. Wow.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  That's just the Earth's internal heater with a nice insulating blanket on top of it.
- Kristine1975 10y ago
  At least the workers had air conditioning: http://interaktiv.tagesanzeiger.ch/2016/gotthard-system/ http://interaktiv.tagesanzeiger.ch/2016/gotthard-system/ Security of the workers was strictly controlled. Working temperature for example was not allowed to exceed 28°C, which was achieved through cooling installations.
- Shivetya 10y ago
  I am curious that if we do get to Mars can we simply dig down or go under a mountain for warmth? You would not need a full on tunnel, just a system similar to geothermal heating
  - xenophonf 10y ago

r3to 10y ago

just to be fair, during the NEAT project the budget has been adjusted several times.

albinoloverats 10y ago

This is what I noticed most too; then I wondered how it compares with Crossrail. (Obviously I imagine tunneling under London is vastly different than under a mountain.)

lmm 10y ago
Crossrail is also ahead of schedule and under budget (taking into account an explicit decision to delay it for a year but allow them to reduce the original budget by 1bn). They've done it by ruthlessly resisting scope creep. The flipside of that is that things added on later will end up costing more overall (e.g. adding the station at Old Oak Common and the connection to the WCML to relieve capacity while Euston is rebuilt for HS2) than if they were done as part of Crossrail.

bjelkeman-again 10y ago

A much shorter tunnel, but with two new underground train stations, is being built under Stockholm, Sweden.[1] It is about 1/6 of the Swiss budget (about $2 billion). It will be completed on budget and slightly ahead of time this year.[2] So it can be done. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_City_Line https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_City_Line [2] in Swedish. http://framtidensinfrastruktur.se/artikel/snart-fardigbyggt-pa-citybanan/ http://framtidensinfrastruktur.se/artikel/snart-fardigbyggt-...

Numberwang 10y ago
But most often, even in Sweden, it is not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallands%C3%A5s_Tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallands%C3%A5s_Tunnel
- bjelkeman-again 10y ago
  Indeed projects in Sweden run över budget too. I was saying "it can be done" not that it is always successful. Other recent successes: Norra länken 2.6 Bn SEK under budget (part of circle road around Stockholm). [1][2] Arlandabanan (train service to Stockholm AirPort), on time and on budget. [3] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norra_länken https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norra_länken [2] https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norra_länken https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norra_länken [3] https://www.arlandaexpress.com/default.aspx?page=88&id=34 https://www.arlandaexpress.com/default.aspx?page=88&id=34
tobltobs 10y ago
You can't compare those two projects.
- IshKebab 10y ago
  Clearly you can... Let's see: Underground?: Yes, Yes Budget: $2bn, $12bn (or whatever) On-time?: Yes, Yes Is a tunnel?: No, Yes ...
  - 10y ago

Olap84 10y ago

Scotland's latest bridge coming in under budget and on time even: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queensferry_Crossing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queensferry_Crossing

stevekemp 10y ago
That almost makes up for the over-spends on the Edinburgh trams, and the Scottish Parliament! (Speaking as an Edinburgh bloke who lived through the significant disruption down Leith Walk for a tramline that was never built; I'm not bitter. Though nowadays I live abroad. In a city with multiple tram-lines.)
tomarr 10y ago
Looks like you spoke to soon! Five month delay.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-36479440 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-36...

vmateixeira 10y ago

Only in not so corrupt countries..

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

Annatar 10y ago

That is typical for Switzerland, and it is because for the Swiss, "planning is 50% of the work". They invest the time up-front in planning and thinking about how whatever it is they are doing is going to work, and once they either ran proof of concept tests or thought it through, they set the machinery in motion. There will even be a clearly documented process for modelling the process, and a process for getting the logistics squared away! It's such a great way to work, I'm a big fan of this work methodology, because it is oriented towards reaping long term profits with interest, be those profits with interest financial or intellectual.

abduhl 10y ago
This is incredibly disrespectful to the professionals in other parts of the developed world who do infrastructure or construction related work. Every mega project (and most mid sized projects) invests significant money and time in planning and design and also has defined work flows/design processes. I'd be interested to see any breakdown of costs or schedule that show "planning" as being 50% of the the work.
- swombat 10y ago
  It seems a bit harsh to me to call this "incredibly disrespectful". I doubt that "incredible disrespect" was intended, nor is it inherent to the statement. What I think you mean is that the grandparent comment strikes you personally as not recognising the efforts of other engineers around the world, and you wish it did. I think that would be a less incendiary and aggressive way to get your point across, and, in most places, more likely to get a useful response.
  - abduhl 10y ago
    Thank you for the comment but your recommendation is unnecessary - from reading your post it is clear that the major components of my complaint were understood without issue. Disrespect occurs with or without intent. The original poster's comment can only be construed in one way: the Swiss do things this way, it is better, and therefore everybody else does it wrong. The claim (50% spent on planning) is clearly and demonstrably wrong. As someone who works in the tunneling industry I take personal offense to the implication that we (Americans, British, Spanish, Italian, Chinese, everyone not Swiss) don't "invest the time up-front in planning and thinking" before we "set the machinery in motion" and that we have a work methodology that isn't "oriented towards reaping long term profits with interest".

ucaetano 10y ago

There's (usually) a very good separation between the political and technical aspects of the project. You can take the Porta Alpina dise-project as an example (which wanted an underground station midway through the tunnel connecting to ski resorts). Despite strong political lobbying, the project was deemed uneconomical and canceled. If you compare it with the new span of the SF Bay Bridge, the difference is clear: there was far less political involvement in the technical details of the project in the Swiss case.

brohee 10y ago

Only in Europe maybe. The Millau Viaduct (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millau_Viaduct https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millau_Viaduct) was also on time and on budget, despite needing a few groundbreaking advances... Without public money even...

yread 10y ago
The highest bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidu_River_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidu_River_Bridge looks so unreal it looks like it was photoshopped over the valley. Sorry for OT. Back to work all of you!

jsingleton 10y ago

The Swiss also have a railway inside the Eiger. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungfrau_railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungfrau_railway

marban 10y ago

In parts you would rather have to give credits to the New Austrian Tunnelling method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Austrian_Tunnelling_method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Austrian_Tunnelling_method

snowwolf 10y ago

"... delivered on time and within budget ..." So for a project of this scale and timeline, they managed to use up exactly all the budget... (I assume it would say under/over budget if it was a significant amount off). What are the odds of predicting correctly the cost of a 20 year project especially given the volatility of markets over the last 20 years? I suspect either some corners were cut, or some contractors started padding out the bills towards the end...

simonebrunozzi 10y ago

The Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco was delivered ahead of schedule, and within budget. 80+ years ago.

TulliusCicero 10y ago
And only eleven people died building it!

ebrogley 10y ago

That is just plain wrong. The project was delayed multiple times and cost a few billions more than estimated. It was on time and budget because the time and budget were adjusted constantly.