4 ms·

> So for example, section 8 and food stamps might be phased out under a BI system (they're always going to get next month's or week's deposit) But my point is,

by xienze 10y ago

> So for example, section 8 and food stamps might be phased out under a BI system (they're always going to get next month's or week's deposit) But my point is, when you hand someone a check and they must in turn be responsible for spending that money on food and shelter, they might not actually do that and then what? At least with Section 8 and food stamps you're earmarking the money for a particular purpose so as to make it much harder for the money to not be used the way it was intended. > WRT things like the car breakdown case you described... Keep in mind "my car broke down" is a metaphor for any unexpected event that impacts someone financially (and commonly as an excuse for "I spent my money foolishly and now I'm broke"), so I didn't mean for that to be some single concrete case I wanted a specific answer for. But again, if we decide that we need to help someone on BI who had some particular financial hardship beyond what their check allows for, how do we police that?

azernik 10y ago
If someone has that much difficulty managing money, I think social services need to get involved and take some control over the person's decisions away from them. I just don't think that should be the default.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  Keep in mind that, under many current programs, you are not allowed to have savings. If you do not use all of your welfare money, then you get your benefits cut. If you have too much in your savings account, then you get your benefits cut. So it's not so simple as to say they have difficulty managing money, it's that they are not allowed to do many of the things you'd associate with successful money managing.
  - azernik 10y ago
    Under many current basic income programs, or just under other welfare programs? My impression of basic income schemes is that they are universal - they don't care if you're a millionaire, you still get your $30K per year.
    - st3v3r 10y ago
      Sorry, welfare programs.
      - azernik 10y ago
        Yeah. My attribution of these issues to saving skills only applies in a UBI context, iff the scheme doesn't force people into particular spending patterns as some current welfare systems do.
  - imtringued 10y ago
    If that's the case how do they expect anyone to get out of poverty?
bryondowd 10y ago
To be fair, if the disbursements are frequent enough, you don't need to worry about food. It takes quite a while to actually starve, and a hungry enough person will buy food. Shelter is another story, but as long as you provide a means to assign some of your BI ahead of time to a provider (landlord), this should also be a minor issue outside of the very mentally ill, who are going to be screwed in any system (including the current one) that doesn't take them under involuntary managed care. When I say assigning your BI, I mean being able to go through a process on the spot that guarantees a landlord $x over y weeks from your BI in exchange for y weeks of tenancy, possibly with additional penalty fees the landlord can claim for any damage to the property. Essentially, a lease without the need for a security deposit or credit check. I'm certain you'd have quite a few places willing to take in renters with guaranteed rent coming in at regular intervals.

by xienze 10y ago

azernik 10y ago

If someone has that much difficulty managing money, I think social services need to get involved and take some control over the person's decisions away from them. I just don't think that should be the default.

st3v3r 10y ago
Keep in mind that, under many current programs, you are not allowed to have savings. If you do not use all of your welfare money, then you get your benefits cut. If you have too much in your savings account, then you get your benefits cut. So it's not so simple as to say they have difficulty managing money, it's that they are not allowed to do many of the things you'd associate with successful money managing.
- azernik 10y ago
  Under many current basic income programs, or just under other welfare programs? My impression of basic income schemes is that they are universal - they don't care if you're a millionaire, you still get your $30K per year.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    Sorry, welfare programs.
    - azernik 10y ago
      Yeah. My attribution of these issues to saving skills only applies in a UBI context, iff the scheme doesn't force people into particular spending patterns as some current welfare systems do.
- imtringued 10y ago
  If that's the case how do they expect anyone to get out of poverty?

bryondowd 10y ago

To be fair, if the disbursements are frequent enough, you don't need to worry about food. It takes quite a while to actually starve, and a hungry enough person will buy food. Shelter is another story, but as long as you provide a means to assign some of your BI ahead of time to a provider (landlord), this should also be a minor issue outside of the very mentally ill, who are going to be screwed in any system (including the current one) that doesn't take them under involuntary managed care. When I say assigning your BI, I mean being able to go through a process on the spot that guarantees a landlord $x over y weeks from your BI in exchange for y weeks of tenancy, possibly with additional penalty fees the landlord can claim for any damage to the property. Essentially, a lease without the need for a security deposit or credit check. I'm certain you'd have quite a few places willing to take in renters with guaranteed rent coming in at regular intervals.