5 ms·

Delivering the money in small chunks might help. Instead of 70$ every week, make it 5$ twice a day. So no matter how broke you were yesterday, you'll have enoug

Delivering the money in small chunks might help. Instead of 70$ every week, make it 5$ twice a day. So no matter how broke you were yesterday, you'll have enough money to eat in a few hours. Another "make it easy to get food even if you really screwed up" option might be to give grocery stores 'first dibs' on the money. Basically, let people spend the money a couple days in advance if they do it at a grocery store. A foodstamp micro-loan. The really tricky stuff is probably cases involving debt, where the debt-collector wants to pressure the person into paying them before buying food.

protomyth 10y ago
I agree with that one. It is probably worth it to deliver the money each day or at least each weekday. You could handle the food stamp microloan via and debit card that only is for small food purchases which deducts payment from future daily payments over a certain period of time. It would also stop the amazingly timed police checkpoint on the first day of the month. Handling the debt-collector issue is probably going to take something like a law to force payments in very small amounts until legitimate debts are paid off.
- jedberg 10y ago
  > It would also stop the amazingly timed police checkpoint on the first day of the month. I've never heard of this. Do you have a link or something? I assume it's like a checkpoint they set up in poor areas so they can get money from the welfare checks or something?
  - protomyth 10y ago
    So, its the first of the month and people got their welfare check (or EBT these days), and need to drive into town to buy food. Amazingly, a police checkpoint appears and pulls every driver (well, not semis or high priced vehicles or well those without reservation plates) over. Of course the cars aren't well maintained (poor rural - got a grant based on those stats) so tickets fly. But I'm sure everyone feels safer now. I am having one heck of a time finding the articles.
    - jedberg 10y ago
      Ah so it's not to catch them while they have money, it's to catch them when they know the poor people with poorly maintained cars will be heading to town. That's quite shameful.
Diederich 10y ago
I've not heard of or thought of this approach. It's pretty clever. Still possible to abuse, but it seems at least somewhat less likely.
- billmalarky 10y ago
  You would need to outlaw "BI payday loans" for this to not be circumvented almost immediately.
  - gedy 10y ago
    then "We'll simply unleash wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes."
  - ricardobeat 10y ago
    With such small amounts, the fees would be a huge % - no different than loan sharks everyone already has access to.
    - douglance 10y ago
      Not if we use cryptocurrency.
      - Diederich 10y ago
        Can you expand on that? Note: I'm pretty far on the 'yay cryptocurrency' scale, but I'm just missing what you're saying here.
  - sremani 10y ago
    Black and Gray markets exist for a reason, and if you ban something, it wont go away, it will just go under ground.
  - MichaelBurge 10y ago
    Actually, you'd only need to classify the money from BI as not being subject to garnishment or collections. This is how Social Security is handled. With this, they could loan the money to people and people would owe it, but they couldn't collect.
pessimizer 10y ago
With every sentence you type here, the cost of the bureaucracy rises. Also the profits of the payday loan industry...
ShellfishMeme 10y ago
What if your washing machine breaks or your kids need new clothes or your car needs gas? It seems to me with this approach people would be stuck in perpetual poverty even more.
- marcosdumay 10y ago
  Well, you either live with the problems until you save enough money, or you get a job. How does the government currently help people that got a broken washing machine?
- aoeusnth1 10y ago
  Wait what? How exactly would these people be OK in the current system? Why would it be worse?
  - ShellfishMeme 10y ago
    This is about the tiny daily portions of money, not about BI. It's hard to make long term plans with that, because instead of putting aside $100 at the beginning of the month, now you need to save $3 a day. With amounts that small, it's easy to accidentally overspend. Plus sometimes sudden unexpected costs happen, and you cannot wait another week to slowly save up for it, you need that money now. Not all poor people are poor because they're drug addicts that cannot handle money. Poverty is hard to escape. I'd rather not humiliate these people any further and make it even harder for them to lead a dignified life just because some people might waste their money in the first week.
    - spott 10y ago
      >Plus sometimes sudden unexpected costs happen, and you cannot wait another week to slowly save up for it, you need that money now. How do we help people when this happens NOW?
      - ShellfishMeme 10y ago
        I'm not sure how that is relevant at all. We're talking about how a BI system could work and whether it could be a good idea to split the money in tiny daily chunks. I stated that I believe that is a bad idea because I believe it's generally harder to put aside a dollar a day than $30 a month at the beginning of the month. So far I haven't heard any counter argument, just "How would that be worse than what we have now". Plus that question has so many answers depending on which country you live in. I can tell you for example that in my country you are expected to save part of your welfare money for those cases, which does not necessarily work very well since it's often not enough money to really save it.
PeterisP 10y ago
Solving this debt is not that tricky, it has known legal solutions - e.g. when you have a court order to collect debts from you, where your wages are garnished, it has a floor limit of monthly income that's untouchable and that monthly amount will be available on your bank account no matter what, and there are no legal ways to recover that from you. Threatening to break your legs may work, but that can be handled by the police. Set this floor equal to BI, and that's it. On the other hand, it will mean that payday lenders will likely not lend to you at all if you have no other income, since you can easily never ever pay them back with impunity; but that might be considered a good thing - people won't get stuck with predatory loans en masse because they won't be given them.

protomyth 10y ago

I agree with that one. It is probably worth it to deliver the money each day or at least each weekday. You could handle the food stamp microloan via and debit card that only is for small food purchases which deducts payment from future daily payments over a certain period of time. It would also stop the amazingly timed police checkpoint on the first day of the month. Handling the debt-collector issue is probably going to take something like a law to force payments in very small amounts until legitimate debts are paid off.

jedberg 10y ago
> It would also stop the amazingly timed police checkpoint on the first day of the month. I've never heard of this. Do you have a link or something? I assume it's like a checkpoint they set up in poor areas so they can get money from the welfare checks or something?
- protomyth 10y ago
  So, its the first of the month and people got their welfare check (or EBT these days), and need to drive into town to buy food. Amazingly, a police checkpoint appears and pulls every driver (well, not semis or high priced vehicles or well those without reservation plates) over. Of course the cars aren't well maintained (poor rural - got a grant based on those stats) so tickets fly. But I'm sure everyone feels safer now. I am having one heck of a time finding the articles.
  - jedberg 10y ago
    Ah so it's not to catch them while they have money, it's to catch them when they know the poor people with poorly maintained cars will be heading to town. That's quite shameful.

Diederich 10y ago

I've not heard of or thought of this approach. It's pretty clever. Still possible to abuse, but it seems at least somewhat less likely.

billmalarky 10y ago
You would need to outlaw "BI payday loans" for this to not be circumvented almost immediately.
- gedy 10y ago
  then "We'll simply unleash wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes."
- ricardobeat 10y ago
  With such small amounts, the fees would be a huge % - no different than loan sharks everyone already has access to.
  - douglance 10y ago
    Not if we use cryptocurrency.
    - Diederich 10y ago
      Can you expand on that? Note: I'm pretty far on the 'yay cryptocurrency' scale, but I'm just missing what you're saying here.
- sremani 10y ago
  Black and Gray markets exist for a reason, and if you ban something, it wont go away, it will just go under ground.
- MichaelBurge 10y ago
  Actually, you'd only need to classify the money from BI as not being subject to garnishment or collections. This is how Social Security is handled. With this, they could loan the money to people and people would owe it, but they couldn't collect.

pessimizer 10y ago

With every sentence you type here, the cost of the bureaucracy rises. Also the profits of the payday loan industry...

ShellfishMeme 10y ago

What if your washing machine breaks or your kids need new clothes or your car needs gas? It seems to me with this approach people would be stuck in perpetual poverty even more.

marcosdumay 10y ago
Well, you either live with the problems until you save enough money, or you get a job. How does the government currently help people that got a broken washing machine?
aoeusnth1 10y ago
Wait what? How exactly would these people be OK in the current system? Why would it be worse?
- ShellfishMeme 10y ago
  This is about the tiny daily portions of money, not about BI. It's hard to make long term plans with that, because instead of putting aside $100 at the beginning of the month, now you need to save $3 a day. With amounts that small, it's easy to accidentally overspend. Plus sometimes sudden unexpected costs happen, and you cannot wait another week to slowly save up for it, you need that money now. Not all poor people are poor because they're drug addicts that cannot handle money. Poverty is hard to escape. I'd rather not humiliate these people any further and make it even harder for them to lead a dignified life just because some people might waste their money in the first week.
  - spott 10y ago
    >Plus sometimes sudden unexpected costs happen, and you cannot wait another week to slowly save up for it, you need that money now. How do we help people when this happens NOW?
    - ShellfishMeme 10y ago
      I'm not sure how that is relevant at all. We're talking about how a BI system could work and whether it could be a good idea to split the money in tiny daily chunks. I stated that I believe that is a bad idea because I believe it's generally harder to put aside a dollar a day than $30 a month at the beginning of the month. So far I haven't heard any counter argument, just "How would that be worse than what we have now". Plus that question has so many answers depending on which country you live in. I can tell you for example that in my country you are expected to save part of your welfare money for those cases, which does not necessarily work very well since it's often not enough money to really save it.

PeterisP 10y ago

Solving this debt is not that tricky, it has known legal solutions - e.g. when you have a court order to collect debts from you, where your wages are garnished, it has a floor limit of monthly income that's untouchable and that monthly amount will be available on your bank account no matter what, and there are no legal ways to recover that from you. Threatening to break your legs may work, but that can be handled by the police. Set this floor equal to BI, and that's it. On the other hand, it will mean that payday lenders will likely not lend to you at all if you have no other income, since you can easily never ever pay them back with impunity; but that might be considered a good thing - people won't get stuck with predatory loans en masse because they won't be given them.