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No. I have a high tolerance for trawling through documentation and reading the code of open source libraries in pursuit application logic and the fiddly bits o

by chao- 10y ago

No. I have a high tolerance for trawling through documentation and reading the code of open source libraries in pursuit application logic and the fiddly bits of related services. I have low tolerance for the same work in pursuit of infrastructure configuration and systems administration. I run various flavors of Debian and Ubuntu across a desktop, 2 laptops and a home server (various audio/video projects). Thus I tend to default to the familiarity of these systems, and get back to the part of the stack I enjoy working in. Another word for this might be "laziness", but that doesn't quite tell the full story.

e12e 10y ago
As work on Debian/kFreeBSD progress, hopefully you can have both!
- toast0 10y ago
  Is work on Debian/kFreeBSD going to survive Debian's systemd transition? (I see articles from late 2014, but not sure the current status) As a FreeBSD user and a Debian user, I was excited to try Debian/kFreeBSD around 2012ish? but it was kind of painful -- a lot of important FreeBSD userland tools weren't available in packages, so you had to do a lot of messing about to get things you might need. It might be interesting to run a Debian/kFreeBSD jail inside a regular FreeBSD install, but at that point, you may as well just bite the bullet and do things in regular FreeBSD.
  - e12e 10y ago
    From what I can see from keeping half an eye on the Debian/kFreeBSD Devel list[1], work is progressing nicely. It should be noted that a) FreeBSD is doing work to keep software working without SystemD (an obvious point, I know, but it might not be obvious that this means that work also benefits Debian) - so long as we don't see any crazy dependency on SystemD from Apt or the installer itself (hopefully unlikely) - there shouldn't be any issues. b) Debian/GNU Linux still supports more than one init-system[2] -- at least for now. While the long fingers of SystemD reaches for more and more of Linux, as long as developers are supporting other systems at all, there should be a way forward for distributions that doesn't want to incorporate SystemD. So this includes stuff like native Windows support, building on OS X, and packaging for the various BSDs -- all that work that goes into the big packages should continue to benefit Linux users that want to avoid SystemD for one reason or another. > I was excited to try Debian/kFreeBSD around 2012ish? but it was kind of painful -- a lot of important FreeBSD userland tools weren't available in packages As far as I know, this should've improved quite a bit. The biggest bar for entry (last I checked) was that the nightly installer builds might not work out of the box (one possible workaround would be to install Wheezy/7.0 and then dist-upgrade). To be clear, I've yet to play with Debian/kFreeBSD, so this mostly from impressions from the list (and I'm not quite caught up with the latest). AFAIK the installer should now support installing on zfs rootfs, for example. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-bsd/ https://lists.debian.org/debian-bsd/ [2] https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Installing_without_systemd https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Installing_without_systemd
    - toast0 10y ago
      Thanks for the detailed response (and link to installing without systemd!)
  - JdeBP 10y ago
    You might want to keep tabs on UbuntuBSD. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11326457 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11326457 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11415985 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11415985
biot 10y ago
At first, I thought you were being satirical in making a backhanded jab at the poor quality of documentation on Linux as compared to the excellent documentation in FreeBSD. But it seems that since you've already been through the pain on Linux, its poorer documentation is no longer a hurdle for you so you just go with what's familiar.

by chao- 10y ago

e12e 10y ago

As work on Debian/kFreeBSD progress, hopefully you can have both!

toast0 10y ago
Is work on Debian/kFreeBSD going to survive Debian's systemd transition? (I see articles from late 2014, but not sure the current status) As a FreeBSD user and a Debian user, I was excited to try Debian/kFreeBSD around 2012ish? but it was kind of painful -- a lot of important FreeBSD userland tools weren't available in packages, so you had to do a lot of messing about to get things you might need. It might be interesting to run a Debian/kFreeBSD jail inside a regular FreeBSD install, but at that point, you may as well just bite the bullet and do things in regular FreeBSD.
- e12e 10y ago
  From what I can see from keeping half an eye on the Debian/kFreeBSD Devel list[1], work is progressing nicely. It should be noted that a) FreeBSD is doing work to keep software working without SystemD (an obvious point, I know, but it might not be obvious that this means that work also benefits Debian) - so long as we don't see any crazy dependency on SystemD from Apt or the installer itself (hopefully unlikely) - there shouldn't be any issues. b) Debian/GNU Linux still supports more than one init-system[2] -- at least for now. While the long fingers of SystemD reaches for more and more of Linux, as long as developers are supporting other systems at all, there should be a way forward for distributions that doesn't want to incorporate SystemD. So this includes stuff like native Windows support, building on OS X, and packaging for the various BSDs -- all that work that goes into the big packages should continue to benefit Linux users that want to avoid SystemD for one reason or another. > I was excited to try Debian/kFreeBSD around 2012ish? but it was kind of painful -- a lot of important FreeBSD userland tools weren't available in packages As far as I know, this should've improved quite a bit. The biggest bar for entry (last I checked) was that the nightly installer builds might not work out of the box (one possible workaround would be to install Wheezy/7.0 and then dist-upgrade). To be clear, I've yet to play with Debian/kFreeBSD, so this mostly from impressions from the list (and I'm not quite caught up with the latest). AFAIK the installer should now support installing on zfs rootfs, for example. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-bsd/ https://lists.debian.org/debian-bsd/ [2] https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Installing_without_systemd https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Installing_without_systemd
  - toast0 10y ago
    Thanks for the detailed response (and link to installing without systemd!)
- JdeBP 10y ago
  You might want to keep tabs on UbuntuBSD. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11326457 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11326457 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11415985 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11415985

biot 10y ago

At first, I thought you were being satirical in making a backhanded jab at the poor quality of documentation on Linux as compared to the excellent documentation in FreeBSD. But it seems that since you've already been through the pain on Linux, its poorer documentation is no longer a hurdle for you so you just go with what's familiar.