7 ms·

Unfortunately, a service that connects people with other people directly to rent their homes is always going to have issues like this. I'm not sure that it's f

by JPKab 10y ago

Unfortunately, a service that connects people with other people directly to rent their homes is always going to have issues like this. I'm not sure that it's fair to expect Airbnb to "fix" this. Why? Because if they prevent people from discriminating on the very evil dimensions of race, gender, sexual identification, religion, etc, then they will also prevent people from discriminating on the basis of reasonable factors like "5 guys from 19 to 21 from a fraternity".

readams 10y ago
Yea AirBNB ultimately can try to mitigate, but cannot solve completely this problem. Even if they try to blind the profile, at some point the guest has to show up at the host's house. In a way, it's probably better to avoid the racist host before that occurs. Of course, discriminating in this way is already illegal for normal rentals, but when you have rentals of rooms in people's houses I believe it actually is legal for hosts to discriminate in some cases. I really can't see how any sort of effective enforcement method could exist other than waiting for the racist assholes to die, sadly.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Of course, discriminating in this way is already illegal for normal rentals, but when you have rentals of rooms in people's houses I believe it actually is legal for hosts to discriminate in some cases. In California (the rules on this vary considerably by jurisdiction within the US), there is generally very little limit on discrimination by those renting out a room to a single roomer/boarder (but not if they are renting to multiple roomers/boarders), in an owner-occupied single family dwelling, though they generally can't advertise preference on any protected axis except gender, and only for that when there are shared living areas. In a case like this, renting out the entire place when the terms of the rental is that the owner won't be there, this exception wouldn't seem to apply, though Idaho may have different rules (I'm having more trouble quickly finding a good description of Idaho's rules.)
  - snuxoll 10y ago
    > In a case like this, renting out the entire place when the terms of the rental is that the owner won't be there, this exception wouldn't seem to apply, though Idaho may have different rules (I'm having more trouble quickly finding a good description of Idaho's rules.) Good luck, there's not much for rental regulations in the state of Idaho, and literally nothing for short-term rentals. It would come down to whether renting a property on AirBnB constitutes a lessor/lessee relationship, in which case the Fair Housing Act automatically kicks in.
  - the_ancient 10y ago
    >In California Good thing this home is in Idaho...
- vox_mollis 10y ago
  waiting for the racist assholes to die Serious (offtopic) metaquestion: why is the postmodern view that all people, including violent criminals, are victims/products of their environment, but racists are uniquely and irredeemably evil to their core?
  - daveguy 10y ago
    I don't think the sentiment was "die racists die!", but rather, "well, those backwards thinking assholes from the pre-60s are dying off anyway -- might as well wait em out".
  - sametmax 10y ago
    Or that racism is an absolute. It's not. People can reject some other people in any direction, change course for good or bad at any point in life because of experiences or media, and this has usually nothing to do with personnal conviction. Just fear. Usually it's more about a form of unstable and contextual xenophobia. But it's not just against people. Also about all living things, object, behavior, events... People are label racists like it's a deep nature, while it's most likely a small symptom of poor education + a twisted defensive reaction that is bigger than that, and is not particularly linked to race.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > why is the postmodern view that all people, including violent criminals, are victims/products of their environment, but racists are uniquely and irredeemably evil to their core? Well, I don't agree that that is the postmodern view, unless you define "postmodern" to specifically mean that view so that it is tautologically true; particularly, I don't believe that its all that common for any person (regardless of whether the label "postmodern" applies) to hold simultaneously to both of those beliefs. They may both be beliefs that are visible in some segment of the population, and there may be some overlap, but I don't think there is much correlation. But, in any case, even if they were commonly held together, there is nothing inconsistent in believing that all beliefs and behavior patterns are products of the interaction of the individual with the external environment, and believing that there are certain beliefs and behavior patterns that, once established, are not correctable through any change in the environment that other people can effect (even if the same behaviors/beliefs may be made less likely to manifest in those who have not already manifested them), such that those behaviors/beliefs only go away when the people holding them die.
- cmurf 10y ago
  Once something like this happens, AirBnB puts a "I'm a racist" sticker on the host's profile? I mean, if you're going to say it's better to avoid the racist host before it occurs, maybe avoid it just a touch sooner so the guest doesn't even make contact in the first place? Oh and make the profile public of course.
tootie 10y ago
Dear AirBnB, Please end racism. Regards, A dissatisified customer.
- oh_sigh 10y ago
  Dear AirBnB, Please stop providing hosts with information that basically can only be used for discriminatory purposes against protected classes. Regards, A dissatisfied customer
  - monochromatic 10y ago
    > basically can only be used for discriminatory purposes against protected classes There are valid reasons to want to know what somebody looks like before allowing them into your home.
  - cmurf 10y ago
    I'd seriously be fine with hosts having a "I'm an anti-gay bigot, don't stay here" indicator prominently displayed. It's like that fine American tradition, "Irish need not apply". And I'm a Murphy. It's gross behavior but I think racists, bigots, etc. need public exposure for the full consequences of their beliefs to be realized. I really do not want to do business with someone who's a racist even though I'm white. I don't want to do business with misgynists even though I'm not a woman. So give these hosts a permanent badge of honor for all guests to see, rather than sweeping the problem under the carpet in a way that effectively allows these cranky hosts to discriminate almost anonymously and only incidently once an implicit agreement to rent has been made (even if it's just an inquiry).
    - aft42 10y ago
      >need public exposure for the full consequences of their beliefs to be realized Yeah, Trump is certainly realizing the full consequence of his beliefs.
      - cmurf 10y ago
        I'm not proposing the only form of consequences is monetary. Trump is overwhelmingly perceived as a con artist who cons only the most magnificently bored and/or stupid people of the earth. And not always a successful one either or he wouldn't have had to declare bankruptcy, he could have just conned another handful of investors. Clearly some of his messes were too obvious for even the dumbest rich people of the earth to fall for. And note that this thing hasn't really played itself out fully yet, so we'll just have to see. For all we know, he may be declaring bankruptcy again to get out of candidacy debt.
awesomerobot 10y ago
They could potentially anonymize race by redacting the photos/names until after the booking acceptance, no? Discriminating by age could be considered reasonable (don't want a large group of college students) and I see valid reasons to discriminate by gender (Women may not want to book male guests if they're sharing the same space and vice-versa)... You'd still run into the problem of real-life racists (a problem for minorities everywhere, all the time)... but such a policy would likely eliminate many racists from the site through the frustration of not being able to discriminate.
- oh_sigh 10y ago
  How is discriminating by age reasonable? Not all 20 year olds are booking for 15 people. If someone lies about the number of people attending, then kick them out.
  - awesomerobot 10y ago
    Car insurance providers discriminate against young drivers for similar reasons: you're more risky. I wouldn't entrust the care of my entire house to college students.
    - nilved 10y ago
      There are a bunch of college students who own and care for houses that are better than yours.
      - tlrobinson 10y ago
        For many purposes it would be cost prohibitive to run detailed background checks on individuals to discover every relevant fact like that, so they rely on aggregates, which works well enough.
        Lawtonfogle 10y ago
        And when race is one such aggregate?
oh_sigh 10y ago
Why does a property owner need to see pictures of the guests? Hotels don't make you upload a picture before you come. If AirBNB wants pictures for verification, that's fine, but they shouldn't release them to the guest.
- angersock 10y ago
  There's a difference between hotels (which have limited damages guest are capable of, which are insured against same, and which have protocols for handling these issues) and somebody renting out a room in their home/apartment. Remember, you're effectively inviting over people into your home. Your safe space. Your nest. It seems really, really weird that somebody would do that without at least knowing what the person looks like. And that's before you even get into the security issues of having to blindly trust AirBNB (or somebody claiming to be related to AirBNB) that this rando is authorized.
  - tdicola 10y ago
    If you aren't comfortable renting your home to random people then don't use AirBNB, plain and simple. Buy a second home for commercial purposes and AirBNB rent it out instead (and if that gives you pause then maybe you should reconsider the whole idea of being a small-time landlord with AirBNB). And if you are renting your home with AirBNB and _don't_ have some type of commercial rental insurance or coverage through your main policy you are skating on very thin ice. Even the nicest looking person in the world could ruin your place, or at the very least hurt themselves seriously in your home and bankrupt you with a massive liability lawsuit. If you aren't ready to be a landlord and abide by their rules, regulations, etc. then don't rent out with AirBNB.
    - collyw 10y ago
      AirBNB is claiming to be exactly that though - renting a spare place in someone's house. It doesn't claim to be renting commercial properties or a hotel. (As such it can't guarantee that the owners of houses won't be arseholes)
dragonwriter 10y ago
> I'm not sure that it's fair to expect Airbnb to "fix" this. Its perfectly fair to stop using AirBnB if you are concerned about this until and unless they fix it, independently of whether you "expect" them to fix it, when there are alternative methods of booking lodging where this problem is, at a minimum, less of an issue.
DenisM 10y ago
The notion of "protected class" specifically addresses which groups need protection and which don't, at least in the eyes of the law. Sex, race, disability are on the list. College kids are not. This list would be a good start for AirBNB.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  More specifically, the list of protections for rental discrimination in the particular jurisdiction that the rental occurs in would be appropriate, since its actually the legal requirement. (This may be different than "protected classes" under other laws.)
- jasode 10y ago
  >Sex, race, disability are on the list. Yes, but it looks like owner-occupied homes that are renting out a bedroom on AirBnB are exempt[1] from those discrimination laws. Paraphrase of law: "other than ... a building which contains not more than five rooms for rent ... which is actually occupied by the proprietor ... as his residence" Basically, it is legal for homeowners to discriminate on race for their personal dwelling. The concept appears to be related to the "roommate wanted" being exempted from the FHA Fair Housing Act.[2] There may be a grey area regarding a larger 6-bedroom home that the owner occupies but is renting out for a week while he's out of town. The owner doesn't have to physically share the space simultaneously with the renter. I can't tell if anti-discrimination laws applies to that situation. [1]https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/2000a https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/2000a: (1) any inn, hotel, motel, or other establishment which provides lodging to transient guests, other than an establishment located within a building which contains not more than five rooms for rent or hire and which is actually occupied by the proprietor of such establishment as his residence; [2]https://blog.splitwise.com/2012/02/07/court-allows-discrimination-in-roommate-selection/ https://blog.splitwise.com/2012/02/07/court-allows-discrimin...
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
droithomme 10y ago
| "5 guys from 19 to 21 from a fraternity" "5 guys from 19 to 21 from a fraternity" isn't a protected class under US law.
- Lawtonfogle 10y ago
  When renting out part of your home, does protected status apply? Last I remember if a woman only wants another woman to live in her home that is legal even though gender is a protected class. Only after passing certain limits does protected classes come into play (I think it is if the property being rented isn't one you live in or if you rent to more than 3 people and some other such limits).
  - droithomme 10y ago
    > does protected status apply? AirBNB and their lawyers believe that US Law does in fact apply. They note explicitly though that there are certain classes of exceptions. https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/898/ada-and-fha-compliance-policy https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/898/ada-and-fha-complian...
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > When renting out part of your home, does protected status apply? That depends on local law; in California, it doesn't if you have exactly 1 roomer in a single-family, owner-occupied home. (There are still restrictions on advertising preferences, except gender, and then only when there are shared living spaces.)
- tokensimian 10y ago
  isnt age a protected class?
g8oz 10y ago
Alibaba has a feature where they list the response rate of sellers to queries sent via the site. This could be an angle for AirBnB. Log rejections and acceptances and ignores. Run reports on the data for a scorecard. Egregious violators can dealt with then in a number of different ways i.e warning notices, lower search rankings, burning cross badge beside username etc.

by JPKab 10y ago

readams 10y ago

Yea AirBNB ultimately can try to mitigate, but cannot solve completely this problem. Even if they try to blind the profile, at some point the guest has to show up at the host's house. In a way, it's probably better to avoid the racist host before that occurs. Of course, discriminating in this way is already illegal for normal rentals, but when you have rentals of rooms in people's houses I believe it actually is legal for hosts to discriminate in some cases. I really can't see how any sort of effective enforcement method could exist other than waiting for the racist assholes to die, sadly.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> Of course, discriminating in this way is already illegal for normal rentals, but when you have rentals of rooms in people's houses I believe it actually is legal for hosts to discriminate in some cases. In California (the rules on this vary considerably by jurisdiction within the US), there is generally very little limit on discrimination by those renting out a room to a single roomer/boarder (but not if they are renting to multiple roomers/boarders), in an owner-occupied single family dwelling, though they generally can't advertise preference on any protected axis except gender, and only for that when there are shared living areas. In a case like this, renting out the entire place when the terms of the rental is that the owner won't be there, this exception wouldn't seem to apply, though Idaho may have different rules (I'm having more trouble quickly finding a good description of Idaho's rules.)
- snuxoll 10y ago
  > In a case like this, renting out the entire place when the terms of the rental is that the owner won't be there, this exception wouldn't seem to apply, though Idaho may have different rules (I'm having more trouble quickly finding a good description of Idaho's rules.) Good luck, there's not much for rental regulations in the state of Idaho, and literally nothing for short-term rentals. It would come down to whether renting a property on AirBnB constitutes a lessor/lessee relationship, in which case the Fair Housing Act automatically kicks in.
- the_ancient 10y ago
  >In California Good thing this home is in Idaho...
vox_mollis 10y ago
waiting for the racist assholes to die Serious (offtopic) metaquestion: why is the postmodern view that all people, including violent criminals, are victims/products of their environment, but racists are uniquely and irredeemably evil to their core?
- daveguy 10y ago
  I don't think the sentiment was "die racists die!", but rather, "well, those backwards thinking assholes from the pre-60s are dying off anyway -- might as well wait em out".
- sametmax 10y ago
  Or that racism is an absolute. It's not. People can reject some other people in any direction, change course for good or bad at any point in life because of experiences or media, and this has usually nothing to do with personnal conviction. Just fear. Usually it's more about a form of unstable and contextual xenophobia. But it's not just against people. Also about all living things, object, behavior, events... People are label racists like it's a deep nature, while it's most likely a small symptom of poor education + a twisted defensive reaction that is bigger than that, and is not particularly linked to race.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > why is the postmodern view that all people, including violent criminals, are victims/products of their environment, but racists are uniquely and irredeemably evil to their core? Well, I don't agree that that is the postmodern view, unless you define "postmodern" to specifically mean that view so that it is tautologically true; particularly, I don't believe that its all that common for any person (regardless of whether the label "postmodern" applies) to hold simultaneously to both of those beliefs. They may both be beliefs that are visible in some segment of the population, and there may be some overlap, but I don't think there is much correlation. But, in any case, even if they were commonly held together, there is nothing inconsistent in believing that all beliefs and behavior patterns are products of the interaction of the individual with the external environment, and believing that there are certain beliefs and behavior patterns that, once established, are not correctable through any change in the environment that other people can effect (even if the same behaviors/beliefs may be made less likely to manifest in those who have not already manifested them), such that those behaviors/beliefs only go away when the people holding them die.
cmurf 10y ago
Once something like this happens, AirBnB puts a "I'm a racist" sticker on the host's profile? I mean, if you're going to say it's better to avoid the racist host before it occurs, maybe avoid it just a touch sooner so the guest doesn't even make contact in the first place? Oh and make the profile public of course.

tootie 10y ago

Dear AirBnB, Please end racism. Regards, A dissatisified customer.

oh_sigh 10y ago
Dear AirBnB, Please stop providing hosts with information that basically can only be used for discriminatory purposes against protected classes. Regards, A dissatisfied customer
- monochromatic 10y ago
  > basically can only be used for discriminatory purposes against protected classes There are valid reasons to want to know what somebody looks like before allowing them into your home.
- cmurf 10y ago
  I'd seriously be fine with hosts having a "I'm an anti-gay bigot, don't stay here" indicator prominently displayed. It's like that fine American tradition, "Irish need not apply". And I'm a Murphy. It's gross behavior but I think racists, bigots, etc. need public exposure for the full consequences of their beliefs to be realized. I really do not want to do business with someone who's a racist even though I'm white. I don't want to do business with misgynists even though I'm not a woman. So give these hosts a permanent badge of honor for all guests to see, rather than sweeping the problem under the carpet in a way that effectively allows these cranky hosts to discriminate almost anonymously and only incidently once an implicit agreement to rent has been made (even if it's just an inquiry).
  - aft42 10y ago
    >need public exposure for the full consequences of their beliefs to be realized Yeah, Trump is certainly realizing the full consequence of his beliefs.
    - cmurf 10y ago
      I'm not proposing the only form of consequences is monetary. Trump is overwhelmingly perceived as a con artist who cons only the most magnificently bored and/or stupid people of the earth. And not always a successful one either or he wouldn't have had to declare bankruptcy, he could have just conned another handful of investors. Clearly some of his messes were too obvious for even the dumbest rich people of the earth to fall for. And note that this thing hasn't really played itself out fully yet, so we'll just have to see. For all we know, he may be declaring bankruptcy again to get out of candidacy debt.

awesomerobot 10y ago

They could potentially anonymize race by redacting the photos/names until after the booking acceptance, no? Discriminating by age could be considered reasonable (don't want a large group of college students) and I see valid reasons to discriminate by gender (Women may not want to book male guests if they're sharing the same space and vice-versa)... You'd still run into the problem of real-life racists (a problem for minorities everywhere, all the time)... but such a policy would likely eliminate many racists from the site through the frustration of not being able to discriminate.

oh_sigh 10y ago
How is discriminating by age reasonable? Not all 20 year olds are booking for 15 people. If someone lies about the number of people attending, then kick them out.
- awesomerobot 10y ago
  Car insurance providers discriminate against young drivers for similar reasons: you're more risky. I wouldn't entrust the care of my entire house to college students.
  - nilved 10y ago
    There are a bunch of college students who own and care for houses that are better than yours.
    - tlrobinson 10y ago
      For many purposes it would be cost prohibitive to run detailed background checks on individuals to discover every relevant fact like that, so they rely on aggregates, which works well enough.
      - Lawtonfogle 10y ago
        And when race is one such aggregate?

oh_sigh 10y ago

Why does a property owner need to see pictures of the guests? Hotels don't make you upload a picture before you come. If AirBNB wants pictures for verification, that's fine, but they shouldn't release them to the guest.

angersock 10y ago
There's a difference between hotels (which have limited damages guest are capable of, which are insured against same, and which have protocols for handling these issues) and somebody renting out a room in their home/apartment. Remember, you're effectively inviting over people into your home. Your safe space. Your nest. It seems really, really weird that somebody would do that without at least knowing what the person looks like. And that's before you even get into the security issues of having to blindly trust AirBNB (or somebody claiming to be related to AirBNB) that this rando is authorized.
- tdicola 10y ago
  If you aren't comfortable renting your home to random people then don't use AirBNB, plain and simple. Buy a second home for commercial purposes and AirBNB rent it out instead (and if that gives you pause then maybe you should reconsider the whole idea of being a small-time landlord with AirBNB). And if you are renting your home with AirBNB and _don't_ have some type of commercial rental insurance or coverage through your main policy you are skating on very thin ice. Even the nicest looking person in the world could ruin your place, or at the very least hurt themselves seriously in your home and bankrupt you with a massive liability lawsuit. If you aren't ready to be a landlord and abide by their rules, regulations, etc. then don't rent out with AirBNB.
  - collyw 10y ago
    AirBNB is claiming to be exactly that though - renting a spare place in someone's house. It doesn't claim to be renting commercial properties or a hotel. (As such it can't guarantee that the owners of houses won't be arseholes)

dragonwriter 10y ago

> I'm not sure that it's fair to expect Airbnb to "fix" this. Its perfectly fair to stop using AirBnB if you are concerned about this until and unless they fix it, independently of whether you "expect" them to fix it, when there are alternative methods of booking lodging where this problem is, at a minimum, less of an issue.

DenisM 10y ago

The notion of "protected class" specifically addresses which groups need protection and which don't, at least in the eyes of the law. Sex, race, disability are on the list. College kids are not. This list would be a good start for AirBNB.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
dragonwriter 10y ago
More specifically, the list of protections for rental discrimination in the particular jurisdiction that the rental occurs in would be appropriate, since its actually the legal requirement. (This may be different than "protected classes" under other laws.)
jasode 10y ago
>Sex, race, disability are on the list. Yes, but it looks like owner-occupied homes that are renting out a bedroom on AirBnB are exempt[1] from those discrimination laws. Paraphrase of law: "other than ... a building which contains not more than five rooms for rent ... which is actually occupied by the proprietor ... as his residence" Basically, it is legal for homeowners to discriminate on race for their personal dwelling. The concept appears to be related to the "roommate wanted" being exempted from the FHA Fair Housing Act.[2] There may be a grey area regarding a larger 6-bedroom home that the owner occupies but is renting out for a week while he's out of town. The owner doesn't have to physically share the space simultaneously with the renter. I can't tell if anti-discrimination laws applies to that situation. [1]https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/2000a https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/2000a: (1) any inn, hotel, motel, or other establishment which provides lodging to transient guests, other than an establishment located within a building which contains not more than five rooms for rent or hire and which is actually occupied by the proprietor of such establishment as his residence; [2]https://blog.splitwise.com/2012/02/07/court-allows-discrimination-in-roommate-selection/ https://blog.splitwise.com/2012/02/07/court-allows-discrimin...
- dragonwriter 10y ago

droithomme 10y ago

| "5 guys from 19 to 21 from a fraternity" "5 guys from 19 to 21 from a fraternity" isn't a protected class under US law.

Lawtonfogle 10y ago
When renting out part of your home, does protected status apply? Last I remember if a woman only wants another woman to live in her home that is legal even though gender is a protected class. Only after passing certain limits does protected classes come into play (I think it is if the property being rented isn't one you live in or if you rent to more than 3 people and some other such limits).
- droithomme 10y ago
  > does protected status apply? AirBNB and their lawyers believe that US Law does in fact apply. They note explicitly though that there are certain classes of exceptions. https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/898/ada-and-fha-compliance-policy https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/898/ada-and-fha-complian...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > When renting out part of your home, does protected status apply? That depends on local law; in California, it doesn't if you have exactly 1 roomer in a single-family, owner-occupied home. (There are still restrictions on advertising preferences, except gender, and then only when there are shared living spaces.)
tokensimian 10y ago
isnt age a protected class?

g8oz 10y ago

Alibaba has a feature where they list the response rate of sellers to queries sent via the site. This could be an angle for AirBnB. Log rejections and acceptances and ignores. Run reports on the data for a scorecard. Egregious violators can dealt with then in a number of different ways i.e warning notices, lower search rankings, burning cross badge beside username etc.