13 ms·

Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick'

144 points by wolfgke 10y ago

vmateixeira 10y ago
Just in case anyone may be interested.. https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows
tgb 10y ago
Okay Microsoft gets a ton of hate for the, but the standard for today is software that automatically updates and often even one cannot control update at all since the software resides in the cloud. Maybe this is the most egregious case so far, maybe it isn't, but it's clear that we'll be seeing a lot more of this in the future, not just from Microsoft.
- Piskvorrr 10y ago
  Does that upgrade in the cloud result in nonfunctional computers? QED.
  - Sacho 10y ago
    That's semantics. If my work depends on software that broke after an automatic upgrade, then the computer is "nonfunctional" to me. Alternatively, your computer isn't nonfunctional because Microsoft force-installed Windows 10 on it - you can still remove Windows and install something else. I think it was foolhardy of Microsoft to "force" the update(or more aptly, trick people into updating) because it would be practically impossible to verify that the upgrade would go smoothly on all machines. However, I don't see their action as notably different from any other essential software I install on my computer.
    - Piskvorrr 10y ago
      What is notably different is the automated nature of the install: I want to install essential upgrades during scheduled downtime, not meddle with reverts during a working-day rush hour when the computer is supposed to be doing something useful (i.e. people depend on the workstation to be up so they can do their jobs, and other people depend on that, etc.) This is the huge f-ckup.
  - tgb 10y ago
    Okay, clearly I made an unpopular comment. But I'll keep playing devil's advocate here. Yes, automatically updating software has long caused computers to become nonfunctional on occasion. This is not a first time, and in fact I haven't seen anyone complain about Windows 10 making their computer nonfunctional I've just seen complaints about it making it different. I'm sure someone has had problems with the Windows 10 update and that you can find an example. But I can also find examples of people with Service Pack updates (or even smaller ones) causing problems, for example. If you were really only interested in the cloud software case (which I assume you singled out because you new the general case to obviously go against your argument), then yes, I still claim this happens in a very important sense. When gmail updated its interface, my mom stopped receiving some emails. Of course, they were hidden in different categories and she really was receiving them, but if she silently misses important emails... in what sense is the computer not nonfunctional? That's like 50% of what she does with it. Or in a more general sense, my parents' previous computer was slowly bogged down by a million iTunes updates that made it more and more of a system hog that made most of the rest of the computer unbearably slow. My argument is that this is a matter of degree. Degree is significant, but people are acting as if this forced update is in a class of its own instead of being just the latest in a long (and growing) line of automatic updates that the consumer has less and less control over. Fight back against it if you wish, but don't pretend most software these days isn't doing (or wishing it could be doing) approximately this already. None of this excuses the fact that they make it appear opt-out in manners that trick the consumer in to "opting in". That's just plain deception.
nmalaguti 10y ago
I find all of the outrage over this to be completely overblown. Everyone complains that OS upgrades are too difficult and so they desperately try to avoid them. This results in running 7 year old code that is going to stop being supported in a few short years. Windows 10 is a free upgrade to a an operating system that will be supported for much longer than 7. Also, Windows has adopted a new release cycle that eschews long monolithic upgrades for a more continuous and easy to manage upgrade process. This may be the last time you need to hunker down and do a painful upgrade. I empathize with non-technical users for whom this is a trying experience, but literally every other vendor gets a free pass because you replace your phone every few years, or you've adjusted to a yearly upgrade cycle that is pretty painless. I feel like Microsoft is trying to give people what they want, and all they get in return is kicking and screaming. Until in a few years when they stop supporting older versions of Windows and your Mom gets infected with Randsomware. Then you'll still blame Microsoft, and won't be able to believe that they want to charge you $100 for the privilege of getting on a supported OS.
- na85 10y ago
  >I feel like Microsoft is trying to give people what they want, and all they get in return is kicking and screaming. They're not giving me what I want. Windows 10 isn't what I want. We wanted Windows 7 with modernizations, not Windows 8.1 with more spyware baked in. >Until in a few years when they stop supporting older versions of Windows and your Mom gets infected with Randsomware. Then you'll still blame Microsoft, and won't be able to believe that they want to charge you $100 for the privilege of getting on a supported OS. What planet do you live on where "supported" means "immune to malware"?
  - 6nf 10y ago
    Win10 on 100% of my clients' desktops is what I want though.
  - WorldMaker 10y ago
    «We wanted Windows 7 with modernizations, not Windows 8.1 with more spyware baked in.» Hahaha. I wanted Windows 10 to be an upgrade from Windows 8.1 not a downgrade to Windows 7.8. Windows 10 is absolutely a "Windows 7 with modernizations". It lost a lot of Windows 8's charm (literally as well as figuratively) due to complaints from the same vocal crowd that is whining about "spyware". Microsoft will never make y'all happy, but it's still trying, while meanwhile y'all will keep coming up with excuses why Microsoft is the devil and Windows n-2 was really the peak of what Windows should ever aspire to be. (That said, I do really like Windows 10 and even if I'm disappointed it didn't carry through some of the things I really liked about Windows 8.1, I'd still rather use Windows 10 than Windows < 10.)
Piskvorrr 10y ago
Windows Nein upgrade is malware, IMNSHO. - Uses intentionally confusing UI to trick users into installing ("upgrade now or upgrade later?" - note the absence of "do not upgrade") - IMSHNO installs without user consent (closing a "upgrade now?" window counts as "no" anywhere, including MSFT UX Guidelines, hello there hypocrisy) - breaks existing applications (not every box is just Firefox+LibreOffice: specialized apps and drivers do not work well in WinX) - while the downgrade ("better to worse" is never an upgrade) runs, you can't use your device ("preparing for blahblah, wait.") - erases (or at best hides) user data ("yeah well we just put it all in this completely different folder without notice, it's not like you need your documents, right?") - is very difficult to revert - phones home (again, MS claims there is user consent. So do all the malware writers; I don't think so.) Each and every of these are traits commonly associated with malware; thank God for GWX Control Panel. (To be fair, pre-installed Windows 10 is usable, better than Vista even - but breaking working installs of W7 for no obvious reason is a big no-no)
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  I generally agree, but I wouldn't necessarily call Win10 a downgrade - it's definitely better than 8 (I would think twice about upgrading 7 as having Win7 means that you likely have a pretty old hardware). I honestly don't understand what's going on. This looks like one of the most idiotic thing an IT company has ever done, and Microsoft doesn't care. They don't even try to explain it. And they fucked up big time - rarely any kind of scandal from the computing world reaches the general public, but this one did. I've been asked by random people for advice on whether or not to upgrade; people seem to know Win10 is "evil" and are annoyed by nagging.
  - Piskvorrr 10y ago
    Better than 8? Maybe. Worse than 7 on the same hardware? Absolutely, emphatically, YES. I.e. downgrade, QED. "Win7 means you have pretty old hardware" - well, let me see here. I'm typing this on a top-of-the-line 2016 ultrabook, with Windows 7. Exactly because this is a work tool (like "for people to do some productive work on"), enterprise tends to prefer boooooring older OS over colorful cloudcloudcloud spyware. IMNSHO, this is just a bunch of schmucks with KPIs based on new WinX installs. "Screw the userbase over? No problem, as long as we meet our bonus targets." This feels just like the old Evil Empire, IE6-style. Kudos to the Windows team for single-handedly wiping out all the goodwill the "new and improved MS" has been trying to build up for the past few years: nah, underneath it's still the same MS we used to know, just with a new paint job.
basicplus2 10y ago
as far as I know for Windows 7 and 8 uninstall and block these updates to stop WX nag and auto install WX related - KB 3035583 WX related - KB 3150513 uninstall and block these updates to stop Windows spyware Spyware - KB 3068708 Spyware - KB 3022345 Spyware - KB 3075249 Spyware - KB 3080149 Spyware - KB 3146449
- ordinary 10y ago
  Keep in mind that you have to be vigilant every time you install updates. Microsoft can (and often does) release multiple versions of updates, and it appears the ignore flag is not preserved between versions.
  - frou_dh 10y ago
    The fact it still tries to peddle me SILVERLIGHT despite that getting "Hide Update"d every time it's ever been offered makes me think that (separate from W10-related strategic malice) there's also basic incompetence in the way Windows Update is designed/operated. I don't believe it's in MS's current interest to actively promote Silverlight and yet there it is again and again.
    - rleigh 10y ago
      It's the Windows update system being a horrible mess instead of a proper package manager. Each time you hide it, what you get is apparently a new update with the same name. If you hide it enough times, you eventually hide every available update and it won't reappear (at least, until they issue a new one). Really annoying!
- vmateixeira 10y ago
  You may want to check this one out.. more specifically BlockWindows.bat https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows
shultays 10y ago
What does pressing esc key do? It usually has same functionality as pressing X button right? If pressing esc installs windows 10 too I am speechless
- pca 10y ago
  It's more of a notification than a question dialogue. It tells you that Windows 10 is a "recommended update" now (instead of optional which it was before). That means no matter how you close the window, now you'll get the update unless you actively disable it in time.
O3d 10y ago
The worst thing about it for me is that I have two computers not compatible with windows 10 (super old graphics cards). Yet the upgrade prompt continues to appear. I know the machines aren't compatible because I upgraded one using the nagging prompt and... kaboom.
- alphonsegaston 10y ago
  Check out Never 10 from Steve Gibson. Should set you up to prevent this. https://www.grc.com/never10.htm https://www.grc.com/never10.htm
- calferreira 10y ago
  Not only that, people asume that windows is easily upgradable, but it's not. If you buy an OEM laptop , which is the norm, if the manufacturer doesn't provide updated drivers you might end with a bad user experience. I have to ASUS laptops at home (N56VZ and U36SG) and both have hiccups and short freezes using windows 10. The only thing differente between Windows 7 or Windows 8 is that i don't have updated drivers from OEM. This made me realize where buying an expensive mac might payoff in the long run.
- vt240 10y ago
  Why don't you roll back the the patch. Just search google for the KB number and uninstall. Then go into windows update and hide it. I did this on a couple of systems at work. edit: oops, I missed someone already posted it below.
  - Piskvorrr 10y ago
    And then MS silently reenables this KB. Yup. About 6 times so far.
    - vt240 10y ago
      Strange, I have not had that come up yet. Maybe I have not installed the updates which cause it to auto re-enable yet :-)
mclemme 10y ago
A few years ago there was usually a huge "don't change my facebook" uproar every time facebook changed the functionality or layout of the site. Yet every time a change was implemented, a few weeks went by and most people forgot it ever changed and loved the new layout and/or functionality. Facebook could and can do that because they own facebook, and you are the product (being sold to marketers, etc.) I think people are slowly realizing that the situation is the same with Windows, there's always been complaints when new Windows versions came out, Win98 => ME => 2k => XP => Vista => 7 => 8 => 10. But usually people only experienced the switch whenever they got a new computer with a newer version of Windows on it. Edit: http://www.allwelike.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/26-Facebook.jpg http://www.allwelike.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/26-Faceb...
- wolfgke 10y ago
  The company that I had an internship at a few years ago (in software development) also pieced together computers from individually selected components for special customers (say, from medical sector or engineering). At that time customers nearly always insisted that despite Windows 8 would have advantages for them to have Windows 7 installed (if they weren't ordering the computer with only some GNU/Linux distribution installed, as some customers also did). The reason is that often there were employees at the company that ordered the PC which couldn't get along with the new GUI (the same thing also happened for the Ribbon GUI that was introduced with Office 2007; I know people who still prefer the old Office 2003 GUI and only use the current version because they have to). So already at that time lots of customers were waiting for the version that came after 8.0/8.1. But Microsoft did the completely wrong thing: While fixing the GUI annoyances with Windows 10 (as far as I have heard) they introduced espionage functionality into Windows 10 - a cardinal sin in many European countries where lots of people are deeply worried about the US spying since the Snowden revelations. Also lots of German companies are very afraid of corporate espionage from the US (at the same level or even more as they fear it from China) - and they have good reasons for being worried - I just say "Enercon": > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Enercon&oldid=711382781#Patent_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Enercon&oldid=711...
- stdclass 10y ago
  There is an important difference between a new feature on a social network and a whole new OS. Many people have software and/or drivers installed that won't work on a newer OS.
sambe 10y ago
Microsoft is simultaneously more open than ever (dev-related) and acting just like the 90s (consumer-related). So strange, Windows 10 is pretty nice but they risk destroying reputation with spyware and deceit. I am assuming they are desperate to get people onto the continuous upgrade train to avoid the Windows XP situation occur inn again.
- cm2187 10y ago
  That's being nice to Microsoft. Another way to see it is that they want to monetize their users by taking a cut of the software installed with the app store, with bing integrated in the OS, and with ads being served directly in the OS. And they care more about monetizing their users than their users privacy or interest.
  - secoif 10y ago
    > "…they care more about monetizing their users than their users privacy or interest." Sadly this is true for all but a handful of companies.
- serge2k 10y ago
  It's already happening, look at all the people just in this thread who refuse to update to 10.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    And then look around and see the genpops, the non-tech-savvy people who already know they don't want to upgrade to Windows 10. I was really surprised by that initially - it's rare that people outside of tech know anything about any of the bullshit companies pull, but here I suddenly had random people consulting me on the Windows 10 issue...
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  The opening up on the dev side is not a signal that they've had a change of heart. It's just a ploy to stave off future irrelevance. With consumers using Windows they still dominate the market. Hence no need to be Mr nice guy. If their open sourcing strategy works and leads to any kind of market dominance I'm pretty confident that they'll revert to old tactics on the dev side just like before.
1ris 10y ago
The line to "unauthorised computer access" has be crossed several times. Usually investigators are overzealous with prosecuting this crime, but i doubt anybody will neven ever start investigations against microsoft.
- ryanl0l 10y ago
  If you really feel that way, why do you not file a police report then?
  - 1ris 10y ago
    As i'm not a windows user this is not worth my time and i probably couldn't even file a report. But the real reason why i don't is that i'm not a US citizen and my local "hacking" laws are less strict.
smcl 10y ago
I love the "it's worked like this for months" quote. Yeh, you silently switched the behaviour for a single case a couple of months ago in an feature people rarely use. How could anyone be upset about that?
algorias 10y ago
Recently my mom ended up with windows 10, despite not intending to upgrade. No idea how it exactly happened. Anyway, as a result all her .docx files got associated with microsoft office (yes, during the upgrade windows "forgot" her preference for libreoffice) and to add insult to injury, the files wouldn't even open, instead whenever she double clicked one of them she'd get an ad urging her to buy an office 365 subscription to allow her to see her own fucking files. I'm done with Microsoft, forever. No matter what they do, I will never trust them again.
- MawNicker 10y ago
  This is so strange. It's like the OS team is in another universe. The rest of the company is nailing it.
  - oceanswave 10y ago
    Nailing their own coffin, I agree
  - sametmax 10y ago
    You mean the phone team killing nokia, the legal team suying linux based companies or the Web team wanting to create a gigantic censorship database or the game team creating a console always online with an always on microphone, effectively creating the biggest spyware of all time ? But the PR team nails it, I agree, because despite everything microsoft does, people keep forgetting.
    - m_fayer 10y ago
      I've been working with .NET, Xamarin, and Azure for a while. Those Microsoft products really are a pleasure, I have very little to complain about. Shame that it's only these 3 MS products that justify that statement.
      - Nullabillity 10y ago
        Xamarin is hardly a MS product, and they shut down RoboVM pretty much immediately after purchasing Xamarin.
frik 10y ago
How long will it stay on HN frontpage? Unfavorable news about MS corporation are often flagged(?), anyway they simply vanish (drop to HN page 100+) within minutes. People aren't as dumb, they know the truth, and the trust in products & services from MS is gone. [Edit: And some on their payroll flagged this comment.]
kmfrk 10y ago
I've ended up installing GWX Control Panel to thwart this BS: http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/. Feel all sorts of ridiculous for having to do so, especially from a security perspective, but here we are. -- I've read that one way to go about this is to create a disk image, upgrade to W10, and then restoring from your disk image back to whatever your current version is. This way, you can also install W10 past the deadline of ultimo July - but Windows might continue nagging you in the inteim. Haven't tried it, but at least you'll save the potential $100 if you intend to upgrade down the line.
- satysin 10y ago
  Or just set two registry keys and never think about it again or have third party programs running https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3080351 https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3080351 Just save the following in a .reg file and run or add the keys manually and you never see any of the upgrade crap ever again. At least I never have since last July when I did this on a Win7 machine. Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00 [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate] "DisableOSUpgrade"=dword:00000001 [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\GWX] "DisableGWX"=dword:00000001
  - Piskvorrr 10y ago
    The problem with this is that malware keeps evolving: originally it used to be a single key, but look, people kept disabling it, canna have that, let's make it two keys. GWX has its own update, and keeps up with the squirming Windows Nein Update fairly well.
    - ryanlol 10y ago
      As far as I can tell the advice has been to change both of the keys for at least a year now. When did it change?
    - satysin 10y ago
      They have worked since before the release of Windows 10. I don't really understand why people have such a hard time with this, especially here of all places.
cm3 10y ago
Isn't it funny that Microsoft had this whole Scroogle campaign and now they're doing exactly that but much worse because they slip stuff you disable/removed back in via updates and updates cannot be selectively ignored/disabled in Windows 10 anymore?
- tdkl 10y ago
  Someone on a more popular tech site needs to pull this out and write a piece about it (Verge, Ars).
baku-fr 10y ago
As I see it, the popup is merely a notification that the upgrade has been scheduled. Why not taking the time to read it and cancel the upgrade? It's been like that for years (remember "the computer will restart in 10 minutes" popup from Win7?)
powpowpao 10y ago
Equally as bad is OSX. Decided to downgrade from El Capitan to Mountain Lion because I've a 2012 machine and my GPU blew under El Capitan. Now i can't access my iPad 2 Air because it's forcing me to upgrade iTunes and the only way to do that is to update back to El Capitan. I have to commit the dirtiest, skankiest, filthiest trick by using Windows to access my iPad now.
- edwinjm 10y ago
  Can't you re-install from your original DVD?
  - vetinari 10y ago
    Provided there is an original DVD. Current machines do not come with one. My MBP originally came with Yosemite, but at the time it was delivered, El-Capitan was already out. So I thought, that it will be easier to update, while the machine is not customized yet. Now I don't know, how to downgrade. The Apple Store offers only El-Capitan for download, not Yosemite.
    - tdkl 10y ago
      Well you know, there are "bays" for that.
    - ld00d 10y ago
      The App Store should have your previous version under "Purchases". I have Mountain Lion and on in my list.
      - vetinari 10y ago
        Nope, only El-Capitan is there.
- oceanswave 10y ago
  You don't need to connect to any device to update your iPad OTA updates have been standard for a reeeaaaallly long time now
executesorder66 10y ago
To remove all of MS's nagware and spyware on Win7 and 8 use this: https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat#aegisvoat https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat#aegisvoat
frik 10y ago
This story lasted only 4 hours on HN frontpage, despite a lot of interest and engagement. * Constant starting/shuttering of their mobile OS offerings. * Using sock puppets, advertorials and other shady methods to shape opinion. * Disregarding user privacy in Windows 10 (and extending that to Windows 7/8 via security updates) * Forcing users of Windows 7/8 to update to Windows 10. It's basically malware at this stage.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Maybe because every day a rant about this is being posted?
dhimes 10y ago
A bit OT: Is there a reliable way to keep from sending the keystrokes back to the MS servers?
transpy 10y ago
How come there is no legislation that limits what software corporations are allowed to do? Just imagine if regular companies that deal with physical stuff were allowed to do the same. It's like if they broke into your house to replace or 'upgrade' your stuff without your consent. Companies can literally break into people's homes and change stuff.

144 points by wolfgke 10y ago

Just in case anyone may be interested.. https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows

tgb 10y ago

Okay Microsoft gets a ton of hate for the, but the standard for today is software that automatically updates and often even one cannot control update at all since the software resides in the cloud. Maybe this is the most egregious case so far, maybe it isn't, but it's clear that we'll be seeing a lot more of this in the future, not just from Microsoft.

Piskvorrr 10y ago
Does that upgrade in the cloud result in nonfunctional computers? QED.
- Sacho 10y ago
  That's semantics. If my work depends on software that broke after an automatic upgrade, then the computer is "nonfunctional" to me. Alternatively, your computer isn't nonfunctional because Microsoft force-installed Windows 10 on it - you can still remove Windows and install something else. I think it was foolhardy of Microsoft to "force" the update(or more aptly, trick people into updating) because it would be practically impossible to verify that the upgrade would go smoothly on all machines. However, I don't see their action as notably different from any other essential software I install on my computer.
  - Piskvorrr 10y ago
    What is notably different is the automated nature of the install: I want to install essential upgrades during scheduled downtime, not meddle with reverts during a working-day rush hour when the computer is supposed to be doing something useful (i.e. people depend on the workstation to be up so they can do their jobs, and other people depend on that, etc.) This is the huge f-ckup.
- tgb 10y ago
  Okay, clearly I made an unpopular comment. But I'll keep playing devil's advocate here. Yes, automatically updating software has long caused computers to become nonfunctional on occasion. This is not a first time, and in fact I haven't seen anyone complain about Windows 10 making their computer nonfunctional I've just seen complaints about it making it different. I'm sure someone has had problems with the Windows 10 update and that you can find an example. But I can also find examples of people with Service Pack updates (or even smaller ones) causing problems, for example. If you were really only interested in the cloud software case (which I assume you singled out because you new the general case to obviously go against your argument), then yes, I still claim this happens in a very important sense. When gmail updated its interface, my mom stopped receiving some emails. Of course, they were hidden in different categories and she really was receiving them, but if she silently misses important emails... in what sense is the computer not nonfunctional? That's like 50% of what she does with it. Or in a more general sense, my parents' previous computer was slowly bogged down by a million iTunes updates that made it more and more of a system hog that made most of the rest of the computer unbearably slow. My argument is that this is a matter of degree. Degree is significant, but people are acting as if this forced update is in a class of its own instead of being just the latest in a long (and growing) line of automatic updates that the consumer has less and less control over. Fight back against it if you wish, but don't pretend most software these days isn't doing (or wishing it could be doing) approximately this already. None of this excuses the fact that they make it appear opt-out in manners that trick the consumer in to "opting in". That's just plain deception.

nmalaguti 10y ago

I find all of the outrage over this to be completely overblown. Everyone complains that OS upgrades are too difficult and so they desperately try to avoid them. This results in running 7 year old code that is going to stop being supported in a few short years. Windows 10 is a free upgrade to a an operating system that will be supported for much longer than 7. Also, Windows has adopted a new release cycle that eschews long monolithic upgrades for a more continuous and easy to manage upgrade process. This may be the last time you need to hunker down and do a painful upgrade. I empathize with non-technical users for whom this is a trying experience, but literally every other vendor gets a free pass because you replace your phone every few years, or you've adjusted to a yearly upgrade cycle that is pretty painless. I feel like Microsoft is trying to give people what they want, and all they get in return is kicking and screaming. Until in a few years when they stop supporting older versions of Windows and your Mom gets infected with Randsomware. Then you'll still blame Microsoft, and won't be able to believe that they want to charge you $100 for the privilege of getting on a supported OS.

na85 10y ago
>I feel like Microsoft is trying to give people what they want, and all they get in return is kicking and screaming. They're not giving me what I want. Windows 10 isn't what I want. We wanted Windows 7 with modernizations, not Windows 8.1 with more spyware baked in. >Until in a few years when they stop supporting older versions of Windows and your Mom gets infected with Randsomware. Then you'll still blame Microsoft, and won't be able to believe that they want to charge you $100 for the privilege of getting on a supported OS. What planet do you live on where "supported" means "immune to malware"?
- 6nf 10y ago
  Win10 on 100% of my clients' desktops is what I want though.
- WorldMaker 10y ago
  «We wanted Windows 7 with modernizations, not Windows 8.1 with more spyware baked in.» Hahaha. I wanted Windows 10 to be an upgrade from Windows 8.1 not a downgrade to Windows 7.8. Windows 10 is absolutely a "Windows 7 with modernizations". It lost a lot of Windows 8's charm (literally as well as figuratively) due to complaints from the same vocal crowd that is whining about "spyware". Microsoft will never make y'all happy, but it's still trying, while meanwhile y'all will keep coming up with excuses why Microsoft is the devil and Windows n-2 was really the peak of what Windows should ever aspire to be. (That said, I do really like Windows 10 and even if I'm disappointed it didn't carry through some of the things I really liked about Windows 8.1, I'd still rather use Windows 10 than Windows < 10.)

Piskvorrr 10y ago

Windows Nein upgrade is malware, IMNSHO. - Uses intentionally confusing UI to trick users into installing ("upgrade now or upgrade later?" - note the absence of "do not upgrade") - IMSHNO installs without user consent (closing a "upgrade now?" window counts as "no" anywhere, including MSFT UX Guidelines, hello there hypocrisy) - breaks existing applications (not every box is just Firefox+LibreOffice: specialized apps and drivers do not work well in WinX) - while the downgrade ("better to worse" is never an upgrade) runs, you can't use your device ("preparing for blahblah, wait.") - erases (or at best hides) user data ("yeah well we just put it all in this completely different folder without notice, it's not like you need your documents, right?") - is very difficult to revert - phones home (again, MS claims there is user consent. So do all the malware writers; I don't think so.) Each and every of these are traits commonly associated with malware; thank God for GWX Control Panel. (To be fair, pre-installed Windows 10 is usable, better than Vista even - but breaking working installs of W7 for no obvious reason is a big no-no)

TeMPOraL 10y ago
I generally agree, but I wouldn't necessarily call Win10 a downgrade - it's definitely better than 8 (I would think twice about upgrading 7 as having Win7 means that you likely have a pretty old hardware). I honestly don't understand what's going on. This looks like one of the most idiotic thing an IT company has ever done, and Microsoft doesn't care. They don't even try to explain it. And they fucked up big time - rarely any kind of scandal from the computing world reaches the general public, but this one did. I've been asked by random people for advice on whether or not to upgrade; people seem to know Win10 is "evil" and are annoyed by nagging.
- Piskvorrr 10y ago
  Better than 8? Maybe. Worse than 7 on the same hardware? Absolutely, emphatically, YES. I.e. downgrade, QED. "Win7 means you have pretty old hardware" - well, let me see here. I'm typing this on a top-of-the-line 2016 ultrabook, with Windows 7. Exactly because this is a work tool (like "for people to do some productive work on"), enterprise tends to prefer boooooring older OS over colorful cloudcloudcloud spyware. IMNSHO, this is just a bunch of schmucks with KPIs based on new WinX installs. "Screw the userbase over? No problem, as long as we meet our bonus targets." This feels just like the old Evil Empire, IE6-style. Kudos to the Windows team for single-handedly wiping out all the goodwill the "new and improved MS" has been trying to build up for the past few years: nah, underneath it's still the same MS we used to know, just with a new paint job.

basicplus2 10y ago

as far as I know for Windows 7 and 8 uninstall and block these updates to stop WX nag and auto install WX related - KB 3035583 WX related - KB 3150513 uninstall and block these updates to stop Windows spyware Spyware - KB 3068708 Spyware - KB 3022345 Spyware - KB 3075249 Spyware - KB 3080149 Spyware - KB 3146449

ordinary 10y ago
Keep in mind that you have to be vigilant every time you install updates. Microsoft can (and often does) release multiple versions of updates, and it appears the ignore flag is not preserved between versions.
- frou_dh 10y ago
  The fact it still tries to peddle me SILVERLIGHT despite that getting "Hide Update"d every time it's ever been offered makes me think that (separate from W10-related strategic malice) there's also basic incompetence in the way Windows Update is designed/operated. I don't believe it's in MS's current interest to actively promote Silverlight and yet there it is again and again.
  - rleigh 10y ago
    It's the Windows update system being a horrible mess instead of a proper package manager. Each time you hide it, what you get is apparently a new update with the same name. If you hide it enough times, you eventually hide every available update and it won't reappear (at least, until they issue a new one). Really annoying!
vmateixeira 10y ago
You may want to check this one out.. more specifically BlockWindows.bat https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows

shultays 10y ago

What does pressing esc key do? It usually has same functionality as pressing X button right? If pressing esc installs windows 10 too I am speechless

pca 10y ago
It's more of a notification than a question dialogue. It tells you that Windows 10 is a "recommended update" now (instead of optional which it was before). That means no matter how you close the window, now you'll get the update unless you actively disable it in time.

O3d 10y ago

The worst thing about it for me is that I have two computers not compatible with windows 10 (super old graphics cards). Yet the upgrade prompt continues to appear. I know the machines aren't compatible because I upgraded one using the nagging prompt and... kaboom.

alphonsegaston 10y ago
Check out Never 10 from Steve Gibson. Should set you up to prevent this. https://www.grc.com/never10.htm https://www.grc.com/never10.htm
calferreira 10y ago
Not only that, people asume that windows is easily upgradable, but it's not. If you buy an OEM laptop , which is the norm, if the manufacturer doesn't provide updated drivers you might end with a bad user experience. I have to ASUS laptops at home (N56VZ and U36SG) and both have hiccups and short freezes using windows 10. The only thing differente between Windows 7 or Windows 8 is that i don't have updated drivers from OEM. This made me realize where buying an expensive mac might payoff in the long run.
vt240 10y ago
Why don't you roll back the the patch. Just search google for the KB number and uninstall. Then go into windows update and hide it. I did this on a couple of systems at work. edit: oops, I missed someone already posted it below.
- Piskvorrr 10y ago
  And then MS silently reenables this KB. Yup. About 6 times so far.
  - vt240 10y ago
    Strange, I have not had that come up yet. Maybe I have not installed the updates which cause it to auto re-enable yet :-)

mclemme 10y ago

A few years ago there was usually a huge "don't change my facebook" uproar every time facebook changed the functionality or layout of the site. Yet every time a change was implemented, a few weeks went by and most people forgot it ever changed and loved the new layout and/or functionality. Facebook could and can do that because they own facebook, and you are the product (being sold to marketers, etc.) I think people are slowly realizing that the situation is the same with Windows, there's always been complaints when new Windows versions came out, Win98 => ME => 2k => XP => Vista => 7 => 8 => 10. But usually people only experienced the switch whenever they got a new computer with a newer version of Windows on it. Edit: http://www.allwelike.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/26-Facebook.jpg http://www.allwelike.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/26-Faceb...

wolfgke 10y ago
The company that I had an internship at a few years ago (in software development) also pieced together computers from individually selected components for special customers (say, from medical sector or engineering). At that time customers nearly always insisted that despite Windows 8 would have advantages for them to have Windows 7 installed (if they weren't ordering the computer with only some GNU/Linux distribution installed, as some customers also did). The reason is that often there were employees at the company that ordered the PC which couldn't get along with the new GUI (the same thing also happened for the Ribbon GUI that was introduced with Office 2007; I know people who still prefer the old Office 2003 GUI and only use the current version because they have to). So already at that time lots of customers were waiting for the version that came after 8.0/8.1. But Microsoft did the completely wrong thing: While fixing the GUI annoyances with Windows 10 (as far as I have heard) they introduced espionage functionality into Windows 10 - a cardinal sin in many European countries where lots of people are deeply worried about the US spying since the Snowden revelations. Also lots of German companies are very afraid of corporate espionage from the US (at the same level or even more as they fear it from China) - and they have good reasons for being worried - I just say "Enercon": > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Enercon&oldid=711382781#Patent_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Enercon&oldid=711...
stdclass 10y ago
There is an important difference between a new feature on a social network and a whole new OS. Many people have software and/or drivers installed that won't work on a newer OS.

sambe 10y ago

Microsoft is simultaneously more open than ever (dev-related) and acting just like the 90s (consumer-related). So strange, Windows 10 is pretty nice but they risk destroying reputation with spyware and deceit. I am assuming they are desperate to get people onto the continuous upgrade train to avoid the Windows XP situation occur inn again.

cm2187 10y ago
That's being nice to Microsoft. Another way to see it is that they want to monetize their users by taking a cut of the software installed with the app store, with bing integrated in the OS, and with ads being served directly in the OS. And they care more about monetizing their users than their users privacy or interest.
- secoif 10y ago
  > "…they care more about monetizing their users than their users privacy or interest." Sadly this is true for all but a handful of companies.
serge2k 10y ago
It's already happening, look at all the people just in this thread who refuse to update to 10.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  And then look around and see the genpops, the non-tech-savvy people who already know they don't want to upgrade to Windows 10. I was really surprised by that initially - it's rare that people outside of tech know anything about any of the bullshit companies pull, but here I suddenly had random people consulting me on the Windows 10 issue...
crdoconnor 10y ago
The opening up on the dev side is not a signal that they've had a change of heart. It's just a ploy to stave off future irrelevance. With consumers using Windows they still dominate the market. Hence no need to be Mr nice guy. If their open sourcing strategy works and leads to any kind of market dominance I'm pretty confident that they'll revert to old tactics on the dev side just like before.

1ris 10y ago

The line to "unauthorised computer access" has be crossed several times. Usually investigators are overzealous with prosecuting this crime, but i doubt anybody will neven ever start investigations against microsoft.

ryanl0l 10y ago
If you really feel that way, why do you not file a police report then?
- 1ris 10y ago
  As i'm not a windows user this is not worth my time and i probably couldn't even file a report. But the real reason why i don't is that i'm not a US citizen and my local "hacking" laws are less strict.

smcl 10y ago

I love the "it's worked like this for months" quote. Yeh, you silently switched the behaviour for a single case a couple of months ago in an feature people rarely use. How could anyone be upset about that?

algorias 10y ago

Recently my mom ended up with windows 10, despite not intending to upgrade. No idea how it exactly happened. Anyway, as a result all her .docx files got associated with microsoft office (yes, during the upgrade windows "forgot" her preference for libreoffice) and to add insult to injury, the files wouldn't even open, instead whenever she double clicked one of them she'd get an ad urging her to buy an office 365 subscription to allow her to see her own fucking files. I'm done with Microsoft, forever. No matter what they do, I will never trust them again.

MawNicker 10y ago
This is so strange. It's like the OS team is in another universe. The rest of the company is nailing it.
- oceanswave 10y ago
  Nailing their own coffin, I agree
- sametmax 10y ago
  You mean the phone team killing nokia, the legal team suying linux based companies or the Web team wanting to create a gigantic censorship database or the game team creating a console always online with an always on microphone, effectively creating the biggest spyware of all time ? But the PR team nails it, I agree, because despite everything microsoft does, people keep forgetting.
  - m_fayer 10y ago
    I've been working with .NET, Xamarin, and Azure for a while. Those Microsoft products really are a pleasure, I have very little to complain about. Shame that it's only these 3 MS products that justify that statement.
    - Nullabillity 10y ago
      Xamarin is hardly a MS product, and they shut down RoboVM pretty much immediately after purchasing Xamarin.

frik 10y ago

How long will it stay on HN frontpage? Unfavorable news about MS corporation are often flagged(?), anyway they simply vanish (drop to HN page 100+) within minutes. People aren't as dumb, they know the truth, and the trust in products & services from MS is gone. [Edit: And some on their payroll flagged this comment.]

kmfrk 10y ago

I've ended up installing GWX Control Panel to thwart this BS: http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/. Feel all sorts of ridiculous for having to do so, especially from a security perspective, but here we are. -- I've read that one way to go about this is to create a disk image, upgrade to W10, and then restoring from your disk image back to whatever your current version is. This way, you can also install W10 past the deadline of ultimo July - but Windows might continue nagging you in the inteim. Haven't tried it, but at least you'll save the potential $100 if you intend to upgrade down the line.

satysin 10y ago
Or just set two registry keys and never think about it again or have third party programs running https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3080351 https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3080351 Just save the following in a .reg file and run or add the keys manually and you never see any of the upgrade crap ever again. At least I never have since last July when I did this on a Win7 machine. Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00 [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate] "DisableOSUpgrade"=dword:00000001 [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\GWX] "DisableGWX"=dword:00000001
- Piskvorrr 10y ago
  The problem with this is that malware keeps evolving: originally it used to be a single key, but look, people kept disabling it, canna have that, let's make it two keys. GWX has its own update, and keeps up with the squirming Windows Nein Update fairly well.
  - ryanlol 10y ago
    As far as I can tell the advice has been to change both of the keys for at least a year now. When did it change?
  - satysin 10y ago
    They have worked since before the release of Windows 10. I don't really understand why people have such a hard time with this, especially here of all places.

cm3 10y ago

Isn't it funny that Microsoft had this whole Scroogle campaign and now they're doing exactly that but much worse because they slip stuff you disable/removed back in via updates and updates cannot be selectively ignored/disabled in Windows 10 anymore?

tdkl 10y ago
Someone on a more popular tech site needs to pull this out and write a piece about it (Verge, Ars).

baku-fr 10y ago

As I see it, the popup is merely a notification that the upgrade has been scheduled. Why not taking the time to read it and cancel the upgrade? It's been like that for years (remember "the computer will restart in 10 minutes" popup from Win7?)

powpowpao 10y ago

Equally as bad is OSX. Decided to downgrade from El Capitan to Mountain Lion because I've a 2012 machine and my GPU blew under El Capitan. Now i can't access my iPad 2 Air because it's forcing me to upgrade iTunes and the only way to do that is to update back to El Capitan. I have to commit the dirtiest, skankiest, filthiest trick by using Windows to access my iPad now.

edwinjm 10y ago
Can't you re-install from your original DVD?
- vetinari 10y ago
  Provided there is an original DVD. Current machines do not come with one. My MBP originally came with Yosemite, but at the time it was delivered, El-Capitan was already out. So I thought, that it will be easier to update, while the machine is not customized yet. Now I don't know, how to downgrade. The Apple Store offers only El-Capitan for download, not Yosemite.
  - tdkl 10y ago
    Well you know, there are "bays" for that.
  - ld00d 10y ago
    The App Store should have your previous version under "Purchases". I have Mountain Lion and on in my list.
    - vetinari 10y ago
      Nope, only El-Capitan is there.
oceanswave 10y ago
You don't need to connect to any device to update your iPad OTA updates have been standard for a reeeaaaallly long time now

executesorder66 10y ago

To remove all of MS's nagware and spyware on Win7 and 8 use this: https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat#aegisvoat https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat#aegisvoat

frik 10y ago

This story lasted only 4 hours on HN frontpage, despite a lot of interest and engagement. * Constant starting/shuttering of their mobile OS offerings. * Using sock puppets, advertorials and other shady methods to shape opinion. * Disregarding user privacy in Windows 10 (and extending that to Windows 7/8 via security updates) * Forcing users of Windows 7/8 to update to Windows 10. It's basically malware at this stage.

dogma1138 10y ago
Maybe because every day a rant about this is being posted?

dhimes 10y ago

A bit OT: Is there a reliable way to keep from sending the keystrokes back to the MS servers?

transpy 10y ago

How come there is no legislation that limits what software corporations are allowed to do? Just imagine if regular companies that deal with physical stuff were allowed to do the same. It's like if they broke into your house to replace or 'upgrade' your stuff without your consent. Companies can literally break into people's homes and change stuff.