5 ms·

It's a wonderful and practical idea to try and standardize language, albeit a naive one. IMO it's pointless to try and debate the design of esperanto, or any o

It's a wonderful and practical idea to try and standardize language, albeit a naive one. IMO it's pointless to try and debate the design of esperanto, or any other forced language. Because it's just that, it's forced. I just don't believe you can force a language on people. Languages are as naturally ocurring as anything else in nature. They evolve organically. If we were hypothetically able to force esperanto on a part of the populace then that very same populace would evolve the language and the wordlists would be rewritten by the people introducing new words.

majewsky 10y ago
> I just don't believe you can force a language on people. Forcing English on large parts of the world seems to have worked very well. ;)
- olakease 10y ago
  Only for the native english speakers. Others we must do a tremendous effort. Even worse, in a discussion —because you are not native— you feel always weaker. So my point will be for a non natural language. Easy to learn for everybody so we all play with the same rules. [EDIT] The idea is not to replace natural languages, but to pick an extra non-natural language as an international one
  - avar 10y ago
    As a non-native English speaker I think this is a horrible idea. So rather than for us to all communicate in English which is spoken natively by around half a billion, you'd rather international communication take place in a language nobody speaks natively? That seems like a horrible idea. When the lingua franca is some common natively spoken language at least people who can confidently correct you exist. Having everyone speak a non-native language would just lead to a regression towards the mean, and such a language would be much harder to learn than any existing language because it wouldn't come with a culture. There would be very few books, movies etc. in that language.
    - olakease 10y ago
      English is the third most spoken language. There is more people speaking Spanish and almost double speaking Chinese. More or less 1 of every 7 people in the world speaks Chinese. Should we make Chinese the lingua franca? Why is english better? Also, there are more people speaking Spanish than English.
      - avar 10y ago
        One of the inherent fallacies in your initial comment that I didn't address, but which you've brought up here: Nobody makes anything the lingua franca, it's something that happens organically. I'm sure you're as aware as I am why English is the current lingua franca. It's mostly a historical accident, and it's what we've got. Whether the lingua franca might be English, Chinese or whatever is unrelated to your initial comment, which is what I was replying to. There you were proposing that everyone should learn some artificial language for international communication. I think this is a bad idea for the reasons I stated above. Now instead of defending your argument that we should all use some constructed language you're off on a digression about why English and not Chinese, both of which are natural languages.
        olakease 10y ago
        I'm still defending my argument. And for that reason I'm saying that "English is already spoken by X people" is not argument. And that is the argument I always hear about this topic. My argument is that to learn and master a natural language will take years —and even with a lot of effort— you will probably not master it. Which makes English an elitist skill. Should the international language be an elitist thing? No, it should not. If your mother tongue is a Germanic one then you will find English quite easy. Otherwise not. Non natural languages like esperanto are easier to learn and master. In a couple of months you are used to them.
        avar 10y ago
        I wasn't making any argument for why English should be the lingua franca. In any case all such arguments are academic, it's not like there's going to be some meeting where the lingua franca gets decided. Let's say that there was such a meeting and "we" all decided that we're going to speak Klingon or whatever as a lingua franca. How do you think that would work? People wouldn't care what the decreed language is, maybe you'd have UN meetings in it, pass laws to teach it in school in lots of nations or something. It would probably become even more of an elitist skill than just using a language that already has lots of native and non-native speakers already and lots of culture to go along with it, just like Latin was back when we effectively had this sort of arrangement, sans the constructed language. Finally, if you really haven't heard a better reason for why English became the current dominant language than "it's already spoken by X people, but how come not Chinese and Spanish" you really owe it to yourself to read some of the things that come up when you Google the likes of "history of lingua franca" etc.
- rawTruthHurts 10y ago
  Navajos agree.
- INTPenis 10y ago
  Yeah the only way to force a language on anyone would be to subjugate them somehow. The native americans are a good example because they were completely surrounded, decimated by disease and war. The sami in Sweden are another example, isolated up north, forced to learn Swedish and made to forget their native heritage, but they can still remember their language. Even when the nobility spoke French and latin in britain, the people still developed their own english. It's impossible to impose a language on a free population.
  - restalis 10y ago
    You're giving anecdotes with nobility in France and Britain in the period of english (major) development, but in the medieval times which languages the proles (that the noblemen had little or no contact with) spoke was of little concern to those in power. And there's more, actually! The difference in the spoken language was serving as a distinctive trait of nobility which in itself was something sought to be preserved not obliterated!
- AlgorithmicTime 10y ago
  It depends what you mean by forcing. At no point did a bunch of Americans show up with guns and go "You speak English now." Maybe the British did a bit of that. Anyway, the reason English became common is not due to force, but because the largest economic and cultural power spoke (and speaks) English, and that English is easy to learn badly, though difficult to master.
zeemonkee3 10y ago
> I just don't believe you can force a language on people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not
wreckimnaked 10y ago
>I just don't believe you can force a language on people. What about all of the American continent?

majewsky 10y ago

> I just don't believe you can force a language on people. Forcing English on large parts of the world seems to have worked very well. ;)

olakease 10y ago
Only for the native english speakers. Others we must do a tremendous effort. Even worse, in a discussion —because you are not native— you feel always weaker. So my point will be for a non natural language. Easy to learn for everybody so we all play with the same rules. [EDIT] The idea is not to replace natural languages, but to pick an extra non-natural language as an international one
- avar 10y ago
  As a non-native English speaker I think this is a horrible idea. So rather than for us to all communicate in English which is spoken natively by around half a billion, you'd rather international communication take place in a language nobody speaks natively? That seems like a horrible idea. When the lingua franca is some common natively spoken language at least people who can confidently correct you exist. Having everyone speak a non-native language would just lead to a regression towards the mean, and such a language would be much harder to learn than any existing language because it wouldn't come with a culture. There would be very few books, movies etc. in that language.
  - olakease 10y ago
    English is the third most spoken language. There is more people speaking Spanish and almost double speaking Chinese. More or less 1 of every 7 people in the world speaks Chinese. Should we make Chinese the lingua franca? Why is english better? Also, there are more people speaking Spanish than English.
    - avar 10y ago
      One of the inherent fallacies in your initial comment that I didn't address, but which you've brought up here: Nobody makes anything the lingua franca, it's something that happens organically. I'm sure you're as aware as I am why English is the current lingua franca. It's mostly a historical accident, and it's what we've got. Whether the lingua franca might be English, Chinese or whatever is unrelated to your initial comment, which is what I was replying to. There you were proposing that everyone should learn some artificial language for international communication. I think this is a bad idea for the reasons I stated above. Now instead of defending your argument that we should all use some constructed language you're off on a digression about why English and not Chinese, both of which are natural languages.
      - olakease 10y ago
        I'm still defending my argument. And for that reason I'm saying that "English is already spoken by X people" is not argument. And that is the argument I always hear about this topic. My argument is that to learn and master a natural language will take years —and even with a lot of effort— you will probably not master it. Which makes English an elitist skill. Should the international language be an elitist thing? No, it should not. If your mother tongue is a Germanic one then you will find English quite easy. Otherwise not. Non natural languages like esperanto are easier to learn and master. In a couple of months you are used to them.
        avar 10y ago
        I wasn't making any argument for why English should be the lingua franca. In any case all such arguments are academic, it's not like there's going to be some meeting where the lingua franca gets decided. Let's say that there was such a meeting and "we" all decided that we're going to speak Klingon or whatever as a lingua franca. How do you think that would work? People wouldn't care what the decreed language is, maybe you'd have UN meetings in it, pass laws to teach it in school in lots of nations or something. It would probably become even more of an elitist skill than just using a language that already has lots of native and non-native speakers already and lots of culture to go along with it, just like Latin was back when we effectively had this sort of arrangement, sans the constructed language. Finally, if you really haven't heard a better reason for why English became the current dominant language than "it's already spoken by X people, but how come not Chinese and Spanish" you really owe it to yourself to read some of the things that come up when you Google the likes of "history of lingua franca" etc.
rawTruthHurts 10y ago
Navajos agree.
INTPenis 10y ago
Yeah the only way to force a language on anyone would be to subjugate them somehow. The native americans are a good example because they were completely surrounded, decimated by disease and war. The sami in Sweden are another example, isolated up north, forced to learn Swedish and made to forget their native heritage, but they can still remember their language. Even when the nobility spoke French and latin in britain, the people still developed their own english. It's impossible to impose a language on a free population.
- restalis 10y ago
  You're giving anecdotes with nobility in France and Britain in the period of english (major) development, but in the medieval times which languages the proles (that the noblemen had little or no contact with) spoke was of little concern to those in power. And there's more, actually! The difference in the spoken language was serving as a distinctive trait of nobility which in itself was something sought to be preserved not obliterated!
AlgorithmicTime 10y ago
It depends what you mean by forcing. At no point did a bunch of Americans show up with guns and go "You speak English now." Maybe the British did a bit of that. Anyway, the reason English became common is not due to force, but because the largest economic and cultural power spoke (and speaks) English, and that English is easy to learn badly, though difficult to master.

zeemonkee3 10y ago

> I just don't believe you can force a language on people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not

wreckimnaked 10y ago

>I just don't believe you can force a language on people. What about all of the American continent?