8 ms·

As a former Chinese international student graduated from one of the top Canadian universities with distinction, I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, t

As a former Chinese international student graduated from one of the top Canadian universities with distinction, I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, the toxic culture permeated the Chinese visa student community is definitely responsible for the high rate of cheating. Most Chinese visa students came to study in the west did not came to pursue academic excellence. They (and their parents most likely) see it as a way to beef up their profile with a foreign diploma. This was a culture that I tried so desperately to stay away from when I was in school. On the other hand, I feel bad that the broad generalization impacts tremendously negatively those Chinese visa students who did pursue their dream and passion which led them to a foreign university. I worked hard to graduate with distinction, and learned my stuff well enough to go on and have a successful career, but I always feel I have to go the extra mile just to prove myself; I have to go above-and-beyond just to gain equal footing. I cannot quantify the negative impact the those people cause, but it's incredibly unfair to be prejudiced just because I may look like those people. Academic dishonesty is certainly not a Chinese-only problem. The media singling out a group such as the Chinese visa students is certainly a popular thing to do to gain clicks, but it's a little unfair. </end-of-rant>

studentrob 10y ago
> The media singling out a group such as the Chinese visa students is certainly a popular thing to do to gain clicks There are a lot of Chinese in American schools. They account for a greater proportion of students. There are also ton of really bright Chinese like yourself who work hard. News articles don't tell the full story, but I think most readers understand and can identify stereotypes. If they can't, well, that's their loss.
throwaway5321 10y ago
Life is unfair and people are racist, and I don't think it would change in the future. But at least you will earn much more money than the average person (especially compared to the world), which can compensate for the problems you had somewhat.
pnathan 10y ago
As a former grad student who has interacted with both the good and the bad of your group, I understand the differences... and regret the unfortunate realities. I remember a Chinese PhD student who could not function in spoken English . Nice guy. Always smiled, bobbed his head, and said "hi", and that was the extent of his verbal vocab. Still don't know how he got into an American graduate school. Really brings the department down. :-/
- Nokinside 10y ago
  I attended a conference where young Chinese PhD was giving presentation and nobody could understand what he was saying. Finally one of the organizing professors interrupted him and requested that he should speak English. "But I'm speaking English." he replied with desperation in his voice. He knew his stuff and could write and read English well, but it was very hard to understand what he was saying.
  - lisivka 10y ago
    I have same problem. :-) But I am developer, so I can just avoid direct contact with customer and always use text for communication.
  - pnathan 10y ago
    > He knew his stuff and could write and read English well, Right, I really don't have any way to assess that of a grad student I meet in the halls if they can't speak to me. They may be brilliant, they may be the best student there, and be totally walled off from everyone who doesn't speak their native tongue. I feel bad for them... but I don't think they should be in a grad school where English is the lingua franca. I would vastly prefer "adequate English proficiency" be a hard criteria for attending a US graduate school. Not only are grad students part of a cohort themselves, they often are TAs and provide assistance and guidance to undergraduates. English adequacy is generally the de facto requirement to adequately assist others who are in college (in the US).
    - sammydavis 10y ago
ascorbic 10y ago
I understand your frustration. The difference is at least clear to most other students, even if it's not so clear elsewhere. When I attended university in the UK about ten years ago, about 1/3 of the students on my course were Chinese. Unfortunately I reckon the majority of these were suspect. Many could barely speak English, and when doing group work would contribute to the written work in broken English, but then mysteriously submit flawlessly written final work. However there were several Chinese students who were clearly smart and doing their own work, but these were sadly very much in the minority. There were lots of other international students and none of the rest were suspect. I'm not saying there was no other cheating as I'm sure there was, but none of the rest made me wonder how they even got onto the course, let alone maintained good grades.
- enjalot 10y ago
  A lot of Chinese students learn to read and write English perfectly but can barely speak it because of the way it is taught in Chinese schools. Learning to speak requires practice speaking as well as hearing, and there arent enough teachers who can speak fluent English to set an example. Try learning Chinese sometime and see what its like. I've noticed a more general trend where white people assume those who don't speak like them are stupid. this will end up hurting them as the world grows more connected and more people from different backgrounds end up in the same place.
  - studentrob 10y ago
    > I've noticed a more general trend where white people assume those who don't speak like them are stupid This is likely miscommunication and it doesn't matter anyway. Who cares what other people think? As a white person living in Asia I get the same vibe sometimes. I just shrug it off and power through whatever conversation needs to happen. > this will end up hurting them as the world grows more connected and more people from different backgrounds end up in the same place. People live and learn
  - ascorbic 10y ago
    I realise that it's possible to be able to read and not speak it. However these students were supposed to have passed tests of written and spoken English proficiency. If they couldn't understand spoken English it will have been pretty difficult for them to understand the lectures and seminars. I certainly never said they were stupid. I know the languages are very different and it will have been very hard for them. I've spent a little time in China and know how hard it is the other way around. What I said is that this wasn't reflected in the work they submitted. The comparison with times when they wrote without the opportunity for outside help was also significant. There's no dispute that cheating is widespread among Chinese students, and other Chinese students expressed frustration similar to those expressed by commenters here. As for your point about white people: I don't think skin colour has anything to do with it. It's a problem with English speakers. Foreign language proficiency among native English speakers is terrible. Hypocritically, because so many people do speak English as a second language well, then it is easy to assume, even subconsciously, that if someone doesn't speak it well then they're not as smart. The fact we don't speak their native tongue makes it harder to disabuse ourselves of this. I will say in our defence that it is actually quite hard to learn a foreign language when you're in the country and everyone just replies to you in English. Having lots of Swedish friends and spending quite a bit of time in Sweden, I took several courses to learn the language, even though I never met a single person who was unable to speak English, and nobody under 50 who wasn't totally fluent. In the total of probably three or four months I've spent there over the past decade, not once has anyone responded to me in Swedish when I've spoken to them. It's not useless, as it does at least mean I can understand when they're speaking to each other. Scandinavia is an extreme case, but the phenomenon has spread with English proficiency. In most of Europe it's safe to assume that almost anyone under 40 will speak at least some English. This certainly makes things easy for English speakers, but it does lead to complacency.
tallanvor 10y ago
You're 100% correct that it's not a Chinese-only problem. But I don't think the media is focusing on Chinese students because they're Chinese, but because the businesses that specifically advertise to and help Chinese students are being exposed.
- eitally 10y ago
  And it's not like the media hasn't covered the other major cheating culture: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31998343 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31998343 I'm not sure if identical services exist for Indian students in American universities, but my anecdotal experience in engineering grad school in the US was that Indian & Chinese students both study & cheat in blocs ... which totally sucked for the 5-of-60 American students in the cohort.
e40 10y ago
You admit there is a high rate of cheating but then say it's unfair to call it out. I hope you see the contradiction there.
- golergka 10y ago
  This comment displays a misunderstanding of common logic that so commonly leads people to racist views. There's a logical difference between saying "a lot of chinese students are cheaters" and "chinese student is most likely a cheater". While statistically speaking these propositions seem to be equal, notice that we are not 100% sure here — we're talking in probabilities. But talking in probabilities has two important implications. First, human brains are not wired up to work with probabilities probably: so, when you hear a statement "chinese student is likely to be a cheater", next time you see a chinese student, you will see a cheater. Not a 80% probability cheater, just a cheater. And second thing is that modern morality is based on assumption of best in people — presumption of innocence in law is just one example of that. And this norm have worked really well, in general. When we know that someone is 'bad' only with 80% certainty, we prefer to act as if he's good — for a variety of reasons too complicated to discuss here. Let's just say that in general, it's good for everyone. So, in the end, answering your point: it's not "unfair to call it out". It's just bad to make all chinese students look bad and create pre-conceptions about them.
  - studentrob 10y ago
    > There's a logical difference between saying "a lot of chinese students are cheaters" and "chinese student is most likely a cheater". Where does the article say Chinese students are most likely cheaters?? I've see this claim repeated multiple times in this thread. Nobody can point out where that is mentioned. If you could rewrite the article, how would you rewrite it? Would you mention the Chinese at all or just claim that this particular business, Fanyi Translation [1] [2], is helping students cheat, and not mention that they cater to Chinese speakers? > And second thing is that modern morality is based on assumption of best in people That's a great attitude and I hope more people can embrace it. Let's begin by fostering trust and call a spade a spade. The article is talking about facts that happened. Students cheated. The article is not saying that the cheaters are bad people. In fact, it says the opposite and demonstrates an understanding of the students. The article acknowledges that the students know they broke the rules and wish to move on. End of story. The implication for the rest of us is that this doesn't just happen in Iowa, and this thread is a discussion about how to help students, schools and government identify problems and issue corrections for the benefit of all parties. There is nothing wrong with openly talking about an existing problem. If you are offended by that, I can't help you. This is the way we solve problems in America. [1] https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Farchive.is%2FXNZD1 https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&... [2] http://archive.is/XNZD1 http://archive.is/XNZD1
chuckcode 10y ago
I went to grad school with a lot of Chinese visa students. It was pretty clear about a week in who was the real deal (absolutely brilliant students) and who had worked the system to get into the school. The ones that had cheated their way in generally were generally just average folks who had taken what they viewed as their best option in a very high pressure and high stakes situation. I'm guessing most of my US raised classmates would have made the same decisions in same situations and certainly fair bit of them cheated although usually in less dramatic fashion. The part that is surprising to me is that schools aren't doing much to prevent this. Studies show us when humans are likely to cheat and probability of getting caught is at the top of the list [1]. How universities and colleges can raise tuition an average of 8% a year and get away without doing a minimum of due diligence around cheating is beyond me. Simple things like some certified system for transcripts, letters of recommendation and teachers who ID/recognize their students would be a huge step to resolving these issues. At my grad school the only change was to make foreign students take the TOEFL[3] upon arrival which solved their big problem of english skills as graduate students are supposed to be teaching assistants in undergrad classes. [1] http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/inside-the-cheaters-mind http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/inside-the-cheaters-m... [2] http://www.finaid.org/savings/tuition-inflation.phtml http://www.finaid.org/savings/tuition-inflation.phtml [3] https://www.ets.org/toefl https://www.ets.org/toefl
- simonsarris 10y ago
  > How universities and colleges can raise tuition an average of 8% a year and get away without doing a minimum of due diligence around cheating is beyond me. Why would they? The students and their parents aren't paying for hard (which includes catching cheaters). They're paying for the degree. If college was harder the perceived ROI* would be less. As far as I can tell colleges are happy if the students keep showing up paying real live money-dollars, regardless of if they learn or cheat or even have to do work. * Individuals might feel like they are getting a good deal, but in the aggregate, most college degrees are essentially worthless now, I suspect because college is way too easy so a degree is a signal for almost nothing.
  - sambe 10y ago
sevensor 10y ago
I used to teach at a community college which attracted a lot of Chinese students. I found that for the most part they legitimately wanted to learn the subject I was teaching, but that the language barrier was a problem for many. They would sit in the back and the student with the best comprehension would quietly translate for the rest. When it came to assignments, they did their own work as far as I could tell. So when I read reports like the article, I see this more as an indictment of the U.S. university system (as opposed to the CC system) than of Chinese students. My own experience tells me that there are plenty of students who are willing to do the work, so we're deliberately importing students who aren't, and doing so disproportionately into the university system. I see this as symptomatic of the "I'll pretend to teach and you pretend to learn" culture currently strangling undergraduate instruction at R1 universities.
- drzaiusapelord 10y ago
  >so we're deliberately importing students who aren't Except most, if not all, of these universities have strict English requirements and fluency testing. If they're cheating to get past those, which is a known issue, why are you indicting the US educational system? How can you stop English fluency cheating when the students don't see anything wrong with it? Perceiving them as the victim at this point is ridiculous.
  - sevensor 10y ago
    They're playing the system, and the system is playing them. Everybody loses, and neither party is innocent. In the short term, the people who pay the most disproportionate price are the honest students, especially the many honest Chinese students who aren't involved in cheating. In the long run, we in the U.S. will have to face the music for over-pricing and devaluing the university experience, and China will have to reckon with the fact that many of its expensively Western-educated professionals have no skills other than fraud.
    - drzaiusapelord 10y ago
      Just because I sell an expensive product doesn't give you the right to rip me off nor does it make me guilty of anything. I'm fairly sick of this "no one does wrong" attitude and the complete lack of personal responsibility here. No one is pointing a gun at these kids to come to the states and commit fraud.
drzaiusapelord 10y ago
>The media singling out a group such as the Chinese visa students is certainly a popular thing to do to gain clicks, but it's a little unfair. Did you bother to read the article? There is a cheating industry that caters to the Chinese. This is a valid topic to write about. I think going full politically correct just makes us all stupid. This industry exists for a reason; there's demand from the Chinese and this most likely ties into the ideas of success from Chinese culture where cheating and copy is tolerated, if not encouraged.
- msie 10y ago
  Yes, there is an industry catering to the Chinese but making the leap that only the Chinese culture tolerates cheating and copying is idiotic. A problem with news articles is they can only focus on one topic and sadly for some readers that creates a myopic view of the world. Tomorrow you'll read about welfare fraud, tax fraud, investment fraud and insurance fraud and not realize that there is cheating everywhere in every culture. Remember diploma mills? They catered to American employees who wanted to beef up their resumes and get promotions at work. Remember news about grade inflation in American high schools? Remember the use of steroids in baseball? Or painkillers in football? Or insider trading? Or Ponzi schemes? Or insurance companies not honoring their policies? Deflategate? Stealing signals? Stealing playbooks? Videoing rival teams? Bribing amateur athletes? Cheating in Multiplayer games (Halo ;-))? Yeah.
  - studentrob 10y ago
    > making the leap that only the Chinese culture tolerates cheating and copying is idiotic Where do you see it written in the article that only China cheats? The authors chose to write about a business that helps Chinese students cheat. It sounds like you would prefer that they write an article about every place that has cheating in the world. Do you expect to be able to dictate the topics for author? Dictating speech is China's game, not America's
vthallam 10y ago
I reckon what you say. All the chinese students I know from grad school are few of the most honest & hardworking people. There are thousands of people even from my country(India) who come here only for prestige diluting the genuine student population who come here. Also, it is up to the universities to have a thorough check in these cases.
cloudjacker 10y ago
> Academic dishonesty is certainly not a Chinese-only problem. The media singling out a group such as the Chinese visa students is certainly a popular thing to do to gain clicks, but it's a little unfair. Nobody suggested that academic disonesty is chinese only, everyone suggests that there is an industry that reliable will attract wealthy Chinese families to pay for preferential treatment at top universities. It would be dishonest to say otherwise.

studentrob 10y ago

> The media singling out a group such as the Chinese visa students is certainly a popular thing to do to gain clicks There are a lot of Chinese in American schools. They account for a greater proportion of students. There are also ton of really bright Chinese like yourself who work hard. News articles don't tell the full story, but I think most readers understand and can identify stereotypes. If they can't, well, that's their loss.

throwaway5321 10y ago

Life is unfair and people are racist, and I don't think it would change in the future. But at least you will earn much more money than the average person (especially compared to the world), which can compensate for the problems you had somewhat.

pnathan 10y ago

As a former grad student who has interacted with both the good and the bad of your group, I understand the differences... and regret the unfortunate realities. I remember a Chinese PhD student who could not function in spoken English . Nice guy. Always smiled, bobbed his head, and said "hi", and that was the extent of his verbal vocab. Still don't know how he got into an American graduate school. Really brings the department down. :-/

Nokinside 10y ago
I attended a conference where young Chinese PhD was giving presentation and nobody could understand what he was saying. Finally one of the organizing professors interrupted him and requested that he should speak English. "But I'm speaking English." he replied with desperation in his voice. He knew his stuff and could write and read English well, but it was very hard to understand what he was saying.
- lisivka 10y ago
  I have same problem. :-) But I am developer, so I can just avoid direct contact with customer and always use text for communication.
- pnathan 10y ago
  > He knew his stuff and could write and read English well, Right, I really don't have any way to assess that of a grad student I meet in the halls if they can't speak to me. They may be brilliant, they may be the best student there, and be totally walled off from everyone who doesn't speak their native tongue. I feel bad for them... but I don't think they should be in a grad school where English is the lingua franca. I would vastly prefer "adequate English proficiency" be a hard criteria for attending a US graduate school. Not only are grad students part of a cohort themselves, they often are TAs and provide assistance and guidance to undergraduates. English adequacy is generally the de facto requirement to adequately assist others who are in college (in the US).
  - sammydavis 10y ago

ascorbic 10y ago

I understand your frustration. The difference is at least clear to most other students, even if it's not so clear elsewhere. When I attended university in the UK about ten years ago, about 1/3 of the students on my course were Chinese. Unfortunately I reckon the majority of these were suspect. Many could barely speak English, and when doing group work would contribute to the written work in broken English, but then mysteriously submit flawlessly written final work. However there were several Chinese students who were clearly smart and doing their own work, but these were sadly very much in the minority. There were lots of other international students and none of the rest were suspect. I'm not saying there was no other cheating as I'm sure there was, but none of the rest made me wonder how they even got onto the course, let alone maintained good grades.

enjalot 10y ago
A lot of Chinese students learn to read and write English perfectly but can barely speak it because of the way it is taught in Chinese schools. Learning to speak requires practice speaking as well as hearing, and there arent enough teachers who can speak fluent English to set an example. Try learning Chinese sometime and see what its like. I've noticed a more general trend where white people assume those who don't speak like them are stupid. this will end up hurting them as the world grows more connected and more people from different backgrounds end up in the same place.
- studentrob 10y ago
  > I've noticed a more general trend where white people assume those who don't speak like them are stupid This is likely miscommunication and it doesn't matter anyway. Who cares what other people think? As a white person living in Asia I get the same vibe sometimes. I just shrug it off and power through whatever conversation needs to happen. > this will end up hurting them as the world grows more connected and more people from different backgrounds end up in the same place. People live and learn
- ascorbic 10y ago
  I realise that it's possible to be able to read and not speak it. However these students were supposed to have passed tests of written and spoken English proficiency. If they couldn't understand spoken English it will have been pretty difficult for them to understand the lectures and seminars. I certainly never said they were stupid. I know the languages are very different and it will have been very hard for them. I've spent a little time in China and know how hard it is the other way around. What I said is that this wasn't reflected in the work they submitted. The comparison with times when they wrote without the opportunity for outside help was also significant. There's no dispute that cheating is widespread among Chinese students, and other Chinese students expressed frustration similar to those expressed by commenters here. As for your point about white people: I don't think skin colour has anything to do with it. It's a problem with English speakers. Foreign language proficiency among native English speakers is terrible. Hypocritically, because so many people do speak English as a second language well, then it is easy to assume, even subconsciously, that if someone doesn't speak it well then they're not as smart. The fact we don't speak their native tongue makes it harder to disabuse ourselves of this. I will say in our defence that it is actually quite hard to learn a foreign language when you're in the country and everyone just replies to you in English. Having lots of Swedish friends and spending quite a bit of time in Sweden, I took several courses to learn the language, even though I never met a single person who was unable to speak English, and nobody under 50 who wasn't totally fluent. In the total of probably three or four months I've spent there over the past decade, not once has anyone responded to me in Swedish when I've spoken to them. It's not useless, as it does at least mean I can understand when they're speaking to each other. Scandinavia is an extreme case, but the phenomenon has spread with English proficiency. In most of Europe it's safe to assume that almost anyone under 40 will speak at least some English. This certainly makes things easy for English speakers, but it does lead to complacency.

tallanvor 10y ago

You're 100% correct that it's not a Chinese-only problem. But I don't think the media is focusing on Chinese students because they're Chinese, but because the businesses that specifically advertise to and help Chinese students are being exposed.

eitally 10y ago
And it's not like the media hasn't covered the other major cheating culture: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31998343 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31998343 I'm not sure if identical services exist for Indian students in American universities, but my anecdotal experience in engineering grad school in the US was that Indian & Chinese students both study & cheat in blocs ... which totally sucked for the 5-of-60 American students in the cohort.

e40 10y ago

You admit there is a high rate of cheating but then say it's unfair to call it out. I hope you see the contradiction there.

golergka 10y ago
This comment displays a misunderstanding of common logic that so commonly leads people to racist views. There's a logical difference between saying "a lot of chinese students are cheaters" and "chinese student is most likely a cheater". While statistically speaking these propositions seem to be equal, notice that we are not 100% sure here — we're talking in probabilities. But talking in probabilities has two important implications. First, human brains are not wired up to work with probabilities probably: so, when you hear a statement "chinese student is likely to be a cheater", next time you see a chinese student, you will see a cheater. Not a 80% probability cheater, just a cheater. And second thing is that modern morality is based on assumption of best in people — presumption of innocence in law is just one example of that. And this norm have worked really well, in general. When we know that someone is 'bad' only with 80% certainty, we prefer to act as if he's good — for a variety of reasons too complicated to discuss here. Let's just say that in general, it's good for everyone. So, in the end, answering your point: it's not "unfair to call it out". It's just bad to make all chinese students look bad and create pre-conceptions about them.
- studentrob 10y ago
  > There's a logical difference between saying "a lot of chinese students are cheaters" and "chinese student is most likely a cheater". Where does the article say Chinese students are most likely cheaters?? I've see this claim repeated multiple times in this thread. Nobody can point out where that is mentioned. If you could rewrite the article, how would you rewrite it? Would you mention the Chinese at all or just claim that this particular business, Fanyi Translation [1] [2], is helping students cheat, and not mention that they cater to Chinese speakers? > And second thing is that modern morality is based on assumption of best in people That's a great attitude and I hope more people can embrace it. Let's begin by fostering trust and call a spade a spade. The article is talking about facts that happened. Students cheated. The article is not saying that the cheaters are bad people. In fact, it says the opposite and demonstrates an understanding of the students. The article acknowledges that the students know they broke the rules and wish to move on. End of story. The implication for the rest of us is that this doesn't just happen in Iowa, and this thread is a discussion about how to help students, schools and government identify problems and issue corrections for the benefit of all parties. There is nothing wrong with openly talking about an existing problem. If you are offended by that, I can't help you. This is the way we solve problems in America. [1] https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Farchive.is%2FXNZD1 https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&... [2] http://archive.is/XNZD1 http://archive.is/XNZD1

chuckcode 10y ago

I went to grad school with a lot of Chinese visa students. It was pretty clear about a week in who was the real deal (absolutely brilliant students) and who had worked the system to get into the school. The ones that had cheated their way in generally were generally just average folks who had taken what they viewed as their best option in a very high pressure and high stakes situation. I'm guessing most of my US raised classmates would have made the same decisions in same situations and certainly fair bit of them cheated although usually in less dramatic fashion. The part that is surprising to me is that schools aren't doing much to prevent this. Studies show us when humans are likely to cheat and probability of getting caught is at the top of the list [1]. How universities and colleges can raise tuition an average of 8% a year and get away without doing a minimum of due diligence around cheating is beyond me. Simple things like some certified system for transcripts, letters of recommendation and teachers who ID/recognize their students would be a huge step to resolving these issues. At my grad school the only change was to make foreign students take the TOEFL[3] upon arrival which solved their big problem of english skills as graduate students are supposed to be teaching assistants in undergrad classes. [1] http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/inside-the-cheaters-mind http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/inside-the-cheaters-m... [2] http://www.finaid.org/savings/tuition-inflation.phtml http://www.finaid.org/savings/tuition-inflation.phtml [3] https://www.ets.org/toefl https://www.ets.org/toefl

simonsarris 10y ago
> How universities and colleges can raise tuition an average of 8% a year and get away without doing a minimum of due diligence around cheating is beyond me. Why would they? The students and their parents aren't paying for hard (which includes catching cheaters). They're paying for the degree. If college was harder the perceived ROI* would be less. As far as I can tell colleges are happy if the students keep showing up paying real live money-dollars, regardless of if they learn or cheat or even have to do work. * Individuals might feel like they are getting a good deal, but in the aggregate, most college degrees are essentially worthless now, I suspect because college is way too easy so a degree is a signal for almost nothing.
- sambe 10y ago

sevensor 10y ago

I used to teach at a community college which attracted a lot of Chinese students. I found that for the most part they legitimately wanted to learn the subject I was teaching, but that the language barrier was a problem for many. They would sit in the back and the student with the best comprehension would quietly translate for the rest. When it came to assignments, they did their own work as far as I could tell. So when I read reports like the article, I see this more as an indictment of the U.S. university system (as opposed to the CC system) than of Chinese students. My own experience tells me that there are plenty of students who are willing to do the work, so we're deliberately importing students who aren't, and doing so disproportionately into the university system. I see this as symptomatic of the "I'll pretend to teach and you pretend to learn" culture currently strangling undergraduate instruction at R1 universities.

drzaiusapelord 10y ago
>so we're deliberately importing students who aren't Except most, if not all, of these universities have strict English requirements and fluency testing. If they're cheating to get past those, which is a known issue, why are you indicting the US educational system? How can you stop English fluency cheating when the students don't see anything wrong with it? Perceiving them as the victim at this point is ridiculous.
- sevensor 10y ago
  They're playing the system, and the system is playing them. Everybody loses, and neither party is innocent. In the short term, the people who pay the most disproportionate price are the honest students, especially the many honest Chinese students who aren't involved in cheating. In the long run, we in the U.S. will have to face the music for over-pricing and devaluing the university experience, and China will have to reckon with the fact that many of its expensively Western-educated professionals have no skills other than fraud.
  - drzaiusapelord 10y ago
    Just because I sell an expensive product doesn't give you the right to rip me off nor does it make me guilty of anything. I'm fairly sick of this "no one does wrong" attitude and the complete lack of personal responsibility here. No one is pointing a gun at these kids to come to the states and commit fraud.

drzaiusapelord 10y ago

>The media singling out a group such as the Chinese visa students is certainly a popular thing to do to gain clicks, but it's a little unfair. Did you bother to read the article? There is a cheating industry that caters to the Chinese. This is a valid topic to write about. I think going full politically correct just makes us all stupid. This industry exists for a reason; there's demand from the Chinese and this most likely ties into the ideas of success from Chinese culture where cheating and copy is tolerated, if not encouraged.

msie 10y ago
Yes, there is an industry catering to the Chinese but making the leap that only the Chinese culture tolerates cheating and copying is idiotic. A problem with news articles is they can only focus on one topic and sadly for some readers that creates a myopic view of the world. Tomorrow you'll read about welfare fraud, tax fraud, investment fraud and insurance fraud and not realize that there is cheating everywhere in every culture. Remember diploma mills? They catered to American employees who wanted to beef up their resumes and get promotions at work. Remember news about grade inflation in American high schools? Remember the use of steroids in baseball? Or painkillers in football? Or insider trading? Or Ponzi schemes? Or insurance companies not honoring their policies? Deflategate? Stealing signals? Stealing playbooks? Videoing rival teams? Bribing amateur athletes? Cheating in Multiplayer games (Halo ;-))? Yeah.
- studentrob 10y ago
  > making the leap that only the Chinese culture tolerates cheating and copying is idiotic Where do you see it written in the article that only China cheats? The authors chose to write about a business that helps Chinese students cheat. It sounds like you would prefer that they write an article about every place that has cheating in the world. Do you expect to be able to dictate the topics for author? Dictating speech is China's game, not America's

vthallam 10y ago

I reckon what you say. All the chinese students I know from grad school are few of the most honest & hardworking people. There are thousands of people even from my country(India) who come here only for prestige diluting the genuine student population who come here. Also, it is up to the universities to have a thorough check in these cases.

cloudjacker 10y ago

> Academic dishonesty is certainly not a Chinese-only problem. The media singling out a group such as the Chinese visa students is certainly a popular thing to do to gain clicks, but it's a little unfair. Nobody suggested that academic disonesty is chinese only, everyone suggests that there is an industry that reliable will attract wealthy Chinese families to pay for preferential treatment at top universities. It would be dishonest to say otherwise.