6 ms·

Google was great because it surfaces the most relevant results, but more ads infiltrate everything it surfaces results with the largest wallets who rarely are t

Google was great because it surfaces the most relevant results, but more ads infiltrate everything it surfaces results with the largest wallets who rarely are the most relevant. On the bright side it's good news for Apple whose business model isn't reliant on ads. While Apple can't yet beat Google's mapping technologies, I think instead it's hoping in the long run Google will ruin itself that people will prefer an inferior technology but one that values their privacy and relevancy.

Brakenshire 10y ago
Good news for OpenStreetMap, as well. And a good illustration of why it is an important project.
- patrickdavey 10y ago
  I couldn't agree more. I'm just back from 6 months travel around South America. The OSMAnd+ app for Android was invaluable. Complete offline maps (and Wikipedia content) for every country. The information was usually up to date. It was extremely simple to create an account and start contributing back. So yes, love OSM, will probably hardly use Google Maps from now on.
- neverminder 10y ago
  OpenStreetMap is great, but it's a bit like Linux among OSes - one source of data, but many implementations and not a single one to be dominant enough to be a real threat to google, hence no street view and the search is lousy just to name a few significant drawbacks.
  - Brakenshire 10y ago
    Another analogy might be ARM vs. Intel? Lots of small players don't have to go toe-to-toe with a giant in order to be effective competition. I agree though that it needs to keep up momentum to be competitive, a lot is still missing.
  - twshoopboop 10y ago
    That's because OpenStreetMap is just that -- a source of data. It doesn't aim to offer the kind of utility you expect. Rather, it can serve as a data source for developers that might want to take on that task. The ODBL license they use has some unfortunate terms and the committee seem more interested in license-wanking than progress which is why I think there haven't been a lot of major players creating rich and powerful applications and services with it. For instance, mixing your own proprietary data with OpenStreetMap data isn't allowed. This hasn't been a complete show stopper as some great companies like MapBox have popped up, but I do think its had a chilling effect in general.
- jimktrains2 10y ago
  Transit routing, and routing in general, is one of the last things tying me to Google Maps, sadly. EDIT: Why the downvote? It's honestly the last thing. I don't know of an alternative, and instead of downvoting, give me alternatives! I want them!
  - givinguflac 10y ago
    In my experience, Nokia Here and Apple Maps both trounce Google Maps when it comes to routing. Google still has an edge on POI, but other than that I never touch it.
    - jimktrains2 10y ago
      Can those be used on arbitrary devices? If they are now, will they always be? Does this solve the initial problem anyway?
- legulere 10y ago
  Openstreetmap sadly has some relatively big flaws (this is coming from a regular openstreetmap contributor). * The copyleft license ODbL probably will mean that there never will be a huge adoption. The situation simply is different with a geo database compared to software or one art piece. * Vandalism very easily goes unnoticed, as there is no review at all for edits. If something that went wrong is found, reverting is very hard to do, often left to some expert group that only does that. * Tags indicating when things were last checked are hardly in use. So the database contains tons of information that might not be true anymore or might never have been true. * The data model lacks persistency, the tags of a shop might go from a node to the building area it's in or otherwise effectively loosing the history. It's very hard to find out where something really came from (editor and source). * The data model also lacks a good way of dealing with areas (especially ones with holes in them), multipolygon relations are a hack barely supported in editors that often lead beginners to feel overwhelmed. On the other hand there are no curves, just straight lines, because bezier lines are supposed to be too confusing for beginners. * All the data is in one huge database, not split up into layers. * There are hardly any volunteers in America. It's an import desert.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - twshoopboop 10y ago
    * copyleft license Complete agree, it was stupid to move to the ODbL. * vandalism I've only seen once instance of serious vandalism -- I reported it on their IRC and it was updated within a few hours. And this was a mass attack by 4chan. I don't know if there's a practical way around this system. If people were vetted and had to wait before changes were accepted I think it would hurt contributions. * Last use I agree but all maps have the problem of getting outdated. Unless mapping is completely automated (drones+CV+ML? get on it HN) how would you avoid this? * Inconsistent tagging Yeah this sucks but you can deal with it at the application level usually * Multipolygon areas I haven't used OSM much recently but I know they did a decent overhaul with the site and the editor (the old editor was some flash tool I think). Dealing with complex polygons in software sucks so I understand why this is an issue. They should provide simple guidelines (CCW for the outside polys, CW for the inside polys), reject invalid polygons and provide a suggestion to go on IRC if they are having issues. * Bezier curves This is not a good idea. Why would you want to support bezier curves in map data? Its un-needed complexity. I could see support in an editor that then just creates an approximated poly line. * One huge database OSM is supposed to be a generic data set for many purposes. Some people might want hiking trails, others might want all the bus stops in a city, others may only want all the highways in a country, etc. Creating a system to extract and serve specific data would not only be complex it would be expensive. You'd need a lot of compute time. There are tools and tutorials for extracting what you need from the data set. There are also localized data sets available for many places (country, province/state etc). * American volunteers Yes its really strange that this is the case. Its impressive to see some of the places in Europe (like Germany!) and how rich the OSM data is and how active the community is compared to here. There are local meet ups in cities though where people get together and map stuff. If it interests you, you can always participate.
- tompccs 10y ago
  Speaking of which, have you tried typing "openstreetmap" into Google? None of the top links actually take you to the homepage where the maps are displayed. I'm quite shocked. For lack of better explanation this seems like foul play. Perhaps it comes out differently for you: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=openstreetmap https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=openstreetmap
  - huskyr 10y ago
    I've tried this in a logged-in session, an incognito tab and even in TorBrowser: in all three cases the first result was a link to openstreetmap.org, and the next few hits linked to subdomains, the Wikipedia article or pages explaining the concept. So i guess it's just you.
  - frandroid 10y ago
    Comes up first for me.
    - majewsky 10y ago
      For me, too. I'm on Firefox for Mac in Germany, and it gives me openstreetmap.de and openstreetmap.org as the first two results, then the OSM wiki.
  - tompccs 10y ago
    I've just tested this again, and it seems to only happen when I type the query directly from my Chrome url bar (I'm using Google UK if that makes a difference). Same on Incognito. I get the "Copyright" page at https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright and NO LINK to the homepage anywhere on the front page of results, which seems nuts. https://s33.postimg.org/7iaf0z47j/Screenshot_from_2016_05_25_17_11_01.png https://s33.postimg.org/7iaf0z47j/Screenshot_from_2016_05_25... But copy-pasting the resulting URL into Tor results in a 403 page. Does anyone have a reasonable suggestion for this behaviour?
joeblau 10y ago
That's actually the tradeoff I'm making. The street I live on isn't even in Apple maps (I've filed a ticket), but I'm willing to use it for that tradeoff. Google is definitely collecting way more information and seems to be able to create higher quality maps a lot faster, but there is the trade off of being inundated with ads.
- johneth 10y ago
  Is your street on OpenStreetMap? As I understand it, Apple takes OSM data, so if it's not currently on OpenStreetMap, you could add it.
  - Doctor_Fegg 10y ago
    Apple uses OSM data in a few countries, but for most of the developed world I believe they use TomTom data (formerly TeleAtlas).
IBM 10y ago
They're opening a facility in India for Maps specifically (probably in preparation for the car)to do the the ops work necessary for good maps. http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2016/05/19Apple-Opens-Development-Office-in-Hyderabad.html http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2016/05/19Apple-Opens-Develo...
7952 10y ago
>> the most relevant results Does this even make sense for mapping? If there is a single correct result then that is the only thing I want. If there are multiple possible results I want to see them all. This is a problem best suited to complete databases rather than probability based search algorithms. Adverts can only make this even worse than it is now.
- theandrewbailey 10y ago
  What if the first "result" is an ad for a location that's completely off the way you're going?
ben_jones 10y ago
Yup. I also think users are more inclined to use Apple software on Apple products then Google software on Android products. I think Android (globally) will go to whoever can create the best user experience for low end devices. Either way it's a red flag that Google software is becoming less and less desirable on the consumer market.
honkhonkpants 10y ago
Your post relies on the unsupported idea that the advertisers' listings are not relevant. Google has never allowed advertisers to just buy their way to the top. Yahoo did, and they lost. Google's algorithms require ads to get clicked on.

Brakenshire 10y ago

Good news for OpenStreetMap, as well. And a good illustration of why it is an important project.

patrickdavey 10y ago
I couldn't agree more. I'm just back from 6 months travel around South America. The OSMAnd+ app for Android was invaluable. Complete offline maps (and Wikipedia content) for every country. The information was usually up to date. It was extremely simple to create an account and start contributing back. So yes, love OSM, will probably hardly use Google Maps from now on.
neverminder 10y ago
OpenStreetMap is great, but it's a bit like Linux among OSes - one source of data, but many implementations and not a single one to be dominant enough to be a real threat to google, hence no street view and the search is lousy just to name a few significant drawbacks.
- Brakenshire 10y ago
  Another analogy might be ARM vs. Intel? Lots of small players don't have to go toe-to-toe with a giant in order to be effective competition. I agree though that it needs to keep up momentum to be competitive, a lot is still missing.
- twshoopboop 10y ago
  That's because OpenStreetMap is just that -- a source of data. It doesn't aim to offer the kind of utility you expect. Rather, it can serve as a data source for developers that might want to take on that task. The ODBL license they use has some unfortunate terms and the committee seem more interested in license-wanking than progress which is why I think there haven't been a lot of major players creating rich and powerful applications and services with it. For instance, mixing your own proprietary data with OpenStreetMap data isn't allowed. This hasn't been a complete show stopper as some great companies like MapBox have popped up, but I do think its had a chilling effect in general.
jimktrains2 10y ago
Transit routing, and routing in general, is one of the last things tying me to Google Maps, sadly. EDIT: Why the downvote? It's honestly the last thing. I don't know of an alternative, and instead of downvoting, give me alternatives! I want them!
- givinguflac 10y ago
  In my experience, Nokia Here and Apple Maps both trounce Google Maps when it comes to routing. Google still has an edge on POI, but other than that I never touch it.
  - jimktrains2 10y ago
    Can those be used on arbitrary devices? If they are now, will they always be? Does this solve the initial problem anyway?
legulere 10y ago
Openstreetmap sadly has some relatively big flaws (this is coming from a regular openstreetmap contributor). * The copyleft license ODbL probably will mean that there never will be a huge adoption. The situation simply is different with a geo database compared to software or one art piece. * Vandalism very easily goes unnoticed, as there is no review at all for edits. If something that went wrong is found, reverting is very hard to do, often left to some expert group that only does that. * Tags indicating when things were last checked are hardly in use. So the database contains tons of information that might not be true anymore or might never have been true. * The data model lacks persistency, the tags of a shop might go from a node to the building area it's in or otherwise effectively loosing the history. It's very hard to find out where something really came from (editor and source). * The data model also lacks a good way of dealing with areas (especially ones with holes in them), multipolygon relations are a hack barely supported in editors that often lead beginners to feel overwhelmed. On the other hand there are no curves, just straight lines, because bezier lines are supposed to be too confusing for beginners. * All the data is in one huge database, not split up into layers. * There are hardly any volunteers in America. It's an import desert.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- twshoopboop 10y ago
  * copyleft license Complete agree, it was stupid to move to the ODbL. * vandalism I've only seen once instance of serious vandalism -- I reported it on their IRC and it was updated within a few hours. And this was a mass attack by 4chan. I don't know if there's a practical way around this system. If people were vetted and had to wait before changes were accepted I think it would hurt contributions. * Last use I agree but all maps have the problem of getting outdated. Unless mapping is completely automated (drones+CV+ML? get on it HN) how would you avoid this? * Inconsistent tagging Yeah this sucks but you can deal with it at the application level usually * Multipolygon areas I haven't used OSM much recently but I know they did a decent overhaul with the site and the editor (the old editor was some flash tool I think). Dealing with complex polygons in software sucks so I understand why this is an issue. They should provide simple guidelines (CCW for the outside polys, CW for the inside polys), reject invalid polygons and provide a suggestion to go on IRC if they are having issues. * Bezier curves This is not a good idea. Why would you want to support bezier curves in map data? Its un-needed complexity. I could see support in an editor that then just creates an approximated poly line. * One huge database OSM is supposed to be a generic data set for many purposes. Some people might want hiking trails, others might want all the bus stops in a city, others may only want all the highways in a country, etc. Creating a system to extract and serve specific data would not only be complex it would be expensive. You'd need a lot of compute time. There are tools and tutorials for extracting what you need from the data set. There are also localized data sets available for many places (country, province/state etc). * American volunteers Yes its really strange that this is the case. Its impressive to see some of the places in Europe (like Germany!) and how rich the OSM data is and how active the community is compared to here. There are local meet ups in cities though where people get together and map stuff. If it interests you, you can always participate.
tompccs 10y ago
Speaking of which, have you tried typing "openstreetmap" into Google? None of the top links actually take you to the homepage where the maps are displayed. I'm quite shocked. For lack of better explanation this seems like foul play. Perhaps it comes out differently for you: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=openstreetmap https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=openstreetmap
- huskyr 10y ago
  I've tried this in a logged-in session, an incognito tab and even in TorBrowser: in all three cases the first result was a link to openstreetmap.org, and the next few hits linked to subdomains, the Wikipedia article or pages explaining the concept. So i guess it's just you.
- frandroid 10y ago
  Comes up first for me.
  - majewsky 10y ago
    For me, too. I'm on Firefox for Mac in Germany, and it gives me openstreetmap.de and openstreetmap.org as the first two results, then the OSM wiki.
- tompccs 10y ago
  I've just tested this again, and it seems to only happen when I type the query directly from my Chrome url bar (I'm using Google UK if that makes a difference). Same on Incognito. I get the "Copyright" page at https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright and NO LINK to the homepage anywhere on the front page of results, which seems nuts. https://s33.postimg.org/7iaf0z47j/Screenshot_from_2016_05_25_17_11_01.png https://s33.postimg.org/7iaf0z47j/Screenshot_from_2016_05_25... But copy-pasting the resulting URL into Tor results in a 403 page. Does anyone have a reasonable suggestion for this behaviour?

joeblau 10y ago

That's actually the tradeoff I'm making. The street I live on isn't even in Apple maps (I've filed a ticket), but I'm willing to use it for that tradeoff. Google is definitely collecting way more information and seems to be able to create higher quality maps a lot faster, but there is the trade off of being inundated with ads.

johneth 10y ago
Is your street on OpenStreetMap? As I understand it, Apple takes OSM data, so if it's not currently on OpenStreetMap, you could add it.
- Doctor_Fegg 10y ago
  Apple uses OSM data in a few countries, but for most of the developed world I believe they use TomTom data (formerly TeleAtlas).

IBM 10y ago

They're opening a facility in India for Maps specifically (probably in preparation for the car)to do the the ops work necessary for good maps. http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2016/05/19Apple-Opens-Development-Office-in-Hyderabad.html http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2016/05/19Apple-Opens-Develo...

7952 10y ago

>> the most relevant results Does this even make sense for mapping? If there is a single correct result then that is the only thing I want. If there are multiple possible results I want to see them all. This is a problem best suited to complete databases rather than probability based search algorithms. Adverts can only make this even worse than it is now.

theandrewbailey 10y ago
What if the first "result" is an ad for a location that's completely off the way you're going?

ben_jones 10y ago

Yup. I also think users are more inclined to use Apple software on Apple products then Google software on Android products. I think Android (globally) will go to whoever can create the best user experience for low end devices. Either way it's a red flag that Google software is becoming less and less desirable on the consumer market.

honkhonkpants 10y ago

Your post relies on the unsupported idea that the advertisers' listings are not relevant. Google has never allowed advertisers to just buy their way to the top. Yahoo did, and they lost. Google's algorithms require ads to get clicked on.